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Also, I think people tend to overrate KPGA Tournaments/MSLs just because the MSLs that happened post-GomTV MSL S2 had superior, or comparable prize pools to OGN StarLeague. KPGA Tournaments were more comparable to GhemTV StarLeagues in terms of overall prize pools or television coverage. The prize pool of MSL caught up to, or even pulled slightly ahead of OGN StarLeague circa 2004~2005, but OGN StarLeague created another chasm in terms of prize pools that matched the modern day standards in 2006, and all the MSL we remember sAviOr and Bisu winning from Pringles MSL S1 to GomTV MSL S1 were closer to SuperFights and WCG 2006 in terms of overall prize pool than to OGN StarLeagues.
The only era that the modern context (OGN StarLeague being a slight prestige factor over the MSL, but both individual leagues both being recognized as major individual leagues), and the ProLeague playing a huge role in defining the careers of professional players can only be applied to players who played in the 2007 season onwards (post-sAviOr era).
This is only one aspect of judging past tournaments. Prize pool is of course important, participation rate of professional players should be noted, and open tournaments and invitational tournaments should be treated differently also. How well was received by the public, in terms of viewership, shouldn't be ignored, and how the teams and the players treated it should be taken into account. While it is truly impossible to get the data for the above criteria for all the tournaments in history, I think I did try my best to paint the picture of the overall landscape of the Brood War scene and how it evolved.
So anyone was interested enough to read these posts, thank you, and please refrain from being idiotic with statements like "BoxeR doesn't really have a good ProLeague record, and he only won three tournaments in his career, so obviously he can't be rated that high" in the future.
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Dude, this is a great thread. Please keep it going.
I'd hate to see it turn into a VOD archive, but I think it'd be really great to link out to the finals of each of these leagues / events.
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Will slowly add VODs over time, but the vast majority of them are lost in time forever.
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On December 27 2016 17:28 Letmelose wrote:
5. GomTV Classic S1: 95,000,000 Korean won
Is that right? The wiki says: ₩141,525,000.
(Noticed that when I was looking up the GomTV Invitational.)
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On December 27 2016 22:12 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2016 17:28 Letmelose wrote:
5. GomTV Classic S1: 95,000,000 Korean won Is that right? The wiki says: ₩141,525,000. (Noticed that when I was looking up the GomTV Invitational.)
Which wikipedia? Because that figure is retarded. I'm not saying that my numbers are entirely correct (especially the figures I tried to convert into dollars), but I tried to go over the figures not just from one source (the English sources in particular are extremely unreliable), but tried to add up all the available information for 1st place finish, 2nd place finish, and so on and so forth, to see if the numbers check up.
There's almost no way that GomTV Classic S1 had that much prize money.
I can't provide full proof, but almost all Korean sources say the figure I've listed. Here's a report from FOMOS about GomTV Classic S1.
http://m.blog.naver.com/enddl625/150034163850
It mentions that Jaedong won ₩40,000,000 from 1st place, and Flash won ₩15,000,000 for getting 2nd.
http://www.khgames.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=33259
This is another article about GomTV Classic S3 getting a bigger prize pool than ever before. It breaks down the total prize pool completely. ₩115,000,000 is the overall prize pool.
1st place: ₩5,000,000
2nd place: ₩1,700,000
Round of four: ₩1,000,000
Round of eight: ₩300,000
Round of 16: ₩200,000
The numbers add up to ₩115,000,000 which is consistent with my reports. The amount of prize pool your source quotes would need a really weird distribution of prize pools considering the prize pool for 1st and 2nd place got increased yet the overall prize pool got decreased according to your sources.
Basic rule of thumb. Don't trust the statistics written translated by random guys like me into English. Korean sources include third party media, tournament hosts, KeSPA reports, and e-Sports related news outlets. Although much of the information are lost, it's still way more reliable to check these sources than the translated tidbits from nobodies like me.
Edit: actually, while double checking from numerous sources, I've found a complete account of all the overall prize money from GomTV Classic S1.
http://cafe423.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_search_read?grpid=1A6cI&fldid=ENVw&datanum=40&openArticle=true&docid=1A6cIENVw4020080703151118
1st place: ₩4,000,000
2nd place: ₩1,500,000
Round of four: ₩1,000,000
Round of eight: ₩500,000
Round of 16: No prize
Most consecutive wins (won by Shuttle): ₩1,000,000
Total prize pool: ₩10,500,000
The sources I've trusted did not count bonus prize for the most consecutive wins in the tournament, won by Shuttle for winning ten games in a row. Will edit my original post. Still have no idea where the figure you mentioned came from. I wouldn't trust that source of information if I were you.
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On December 27 2016 22:20 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2016 22:12 Lucumo wrote:On December 27 2016 17:28 Letmelose wrote:
5. GomTV Classic S1: 95,000,000 Korean won Is that right? The wiki says: ₩141,525,000. (Noticed that when I was looking up the GomTV Invitational.) Which wikipedia? Because that figure is retarded. I'm not saying that my numbers are entirely correct (especially the figures I tried to convert into dollars), but I tried to go over the figures not just from one source (the English sources in particular are extremely unreliable), but tried to add up all the available information for 1st place finish, 2nd place finish, and so on and so forth, to see if the numbers check up. There's almost no way that GomTV Classic S1 had that much prize money. I can't provide full proof, but almost all Korean sources say the figure I've listed. Here's a report from FOMOS about GomTV Classic S1. http://m.blog.naver.com/enddl625/150034163850It mentions that Jaedong won ₩40,000,000 from 1st place, and Flash won ₩15,000,000 for getting 2nd. http://www.khgames.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=33259
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/GOMTV_TG_Sambo-Intel_Classic_Season_1
What immediately catches the eye is that the money is in dollar. That's also where the discrepancy comes from, as it's listed as $40k and $15k.
Looking at some other sites (bad English sources/lists  ), it appears the conversion is just wrong.
http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments/2108-averatec-intel-classic-1
/edit: Delving further into this...it seems the wiki took the dollar-centric approach from the official thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/articles/70413-tg-intel-classic-2008-season-1-apr-08-aug-08
As for the conversion, it differs as it's sometimes taken from the beginning while the wiki takes it from the final date. Also, the wiki read 2008-08-10 as 8th of October, instead of 10th of August. That's how such a large difference comes to be.
http://www.x-rates.com/average/?from=USD&to=KRW&amount=100000&year=2008
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On December 27 2016 22:54 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2016 22:20 Letmelose wrote:On December 27 2016 22:12 Lucumo wrote:On December 27 2016 17:28 Letmelose wrote:
5. GomTV Classic S1: 95,000,000 Korean won Is that right? The wiki says: ₩141,525,000. (Noticed that when I was looking up the GomTV Invitational.) Which wikipedia? Because that figure is retarded. I'm not saying that my numbers are entirely correct (especially the figures I tried to convert into dollars), but I tried to go over the figures not just from one source (the English sources in particular are extremely unreliable), but tried to add up all the available information for 1st place finish, 2nd place finish, and so on and so forth, to see if the numbers check up. There's almost no way that GomTV Classic S1 had that much prize money. I can't provide full proof, but almost all Korean sources say the figure I've listed. Here's a report from FOMOS about GomTV Classic S1. http://m.blog.naver.com/enddl625/150034163850It mentions that Jaedong won ₩40,000,000 from 1st place, and Flash won ₩15,000,000 for getting 2nd. http://www.khgames.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=33259 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/GOMTV_TG_Sambo-Intel_Classic_Season_1What immediately catches the eye is that the money is in dollar. That's also where the discrepancy comes from, as it's listed as $40k and $15k. Looking at some other sites (bad English sources/lists ), it appears the conversion is just wrong. http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments/2108-averatec-intel-classic-1
From the looks of it, Esportsearnings seems to be the more reliable source than the wikipedia you've mentioned (although there's noticeable amounts of error here also).
What I'm trying to say (don't want to discuss the specifics on the numbers too much) is that all these tournaments have broken the ₩100,000,000 mark some by a little, others by a little more. The thing of note I was trying to say was the following:
KT-KTF Premier League: Breaks the ₩100,000,000 prize pool cap in October 2003 with KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League.
OGN StarLeague: Breaks the ₩100,000,000 prize pool cap in April 2006 with Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1.
MSL: Breaks the ₩100,000,000 prize pool cap in May 2007 with Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1.
GomTV Classic: Breaks the ₩100,000,000 prize pool cap in April 2008 with GomTV Classic S1.
After the liquidation of KT-KTF Premier League, OGN StarLeague stood alone as the blockbuster league of the scene, with MSL trailing behind at ₩69,000,000 in terms of overall prize pool in 2006. MSL caught up in the 2007 Season, and GomTV caught up in the 2008 Season. These weren't huge tournaments per se, they just caught up with the times. It was a different matter with the KT-KTF Premier Leagues.
When KT-KTF Premier League first came round, the next biggest tournament was OGN StarLeague with ₩38,000,000. The difference between these two tournaments in terms of overall prize pool was probably the most impactful prize pool inflation ever seen in the history of professional Brood War in Korea. I think people watched the games of this ultra-hyped all star tournament on GhemTV (now a defunct television station, and basically a poor man's version of Ongamenet) to achieve the all time viewership record of 2.3% for a reason. Even the second version of this tournament had over twice the overall prize pool of the major individual leagues of its era.
The only time in history that a tournament had over twice the overall prize pool of OGN StarLeague was in 1999, when OGN StarLeague wasn't even called OGN StarLeague because neither Ongamenet, or the name "StarLeague" existed back then.
The second rendition of KT-KTF Premier League had all the hallmarks of a "major tournament", it had:
1) An open qualification system that all the top players of the era took part in (GomTV Classics never had full participation from all the teams, and even in its most attended season, had zero participation from three teams).
2) Prize pool that was more than twice as large as any other tournament.
3) Prestige of being the follow-up of the largest tournament ever held both in terms of prize pool, and viewership numbers.
July won the Premier League, got second in OGN StarLeague. NaDa won the IOPS OGN StarLeague, got second in YATGK MSL and got 3rd place in the Premier League. GoRush won the YATGK MSL, second in the Premier League, and got third place in the IOPS OGN StarLeague. It was a great period of three players that eventually overcame the tyranny of iloveoov, by sharing the three biggest tournaments of its era.
However, seeing this era with a modern eye (OGN/MSL/ProLeague only), people might consider July to be the weakest of the three due to mediocre round of eight appearance in the MSL, or consider NaDa to be the best due to the prestige factor of OGN StarLeague, and him having a better record in SKY 2004 ProLeague R3 (4-2 for NaDa, 2-1 for July, 1-2 for GoRush), without realizing that KT-KTF Premier League was way more hyped than the ProLeague matches of this era, even if the prestige factor for OGN StarLeague was always there for most of its existence.
The titles that July won, such as 7th iTV Rankings Tournament, or KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League are no inferior to the GomTV Classics of the modern era in terms of overall prize pool, player participation, or recognition from KeSPA. However, due to the English coverage, and the modern day bias people have, tend to overrate the achievements of the modern day players (their results in WCGs/GomTV Classics are relatively well remembered on top of their OGN/MSL/ProLeague accolades), yet many older players are only judged by the context of the modern era (OGN/MSL/ProLeague) despite the fact that the equalization of prize pool in individual leagues, and the rise in importance of the ProLeague due to the massive inflation in schedule only took place in Season 2007 (not to be confused with year 2007, Season 2007 starts with the ProLeague Season and Daum OGN StarLeague/GomTV MSL S2).
The landscape of the professional realm was ever changing, but some people only try to see what the older players achieved by the leagues that managed to survive to the modern era. ProLeague didn't even exist until 2003, MSL only matched OGN StarLeague in terms of prize pool circa late-2003 ~ early 2006, and there were numerous tournaments that have come and gone which are often looked over. iTV and GhemTV were both television stations that ran multiple tournaments before being outmuscled by Ongamenet and MBC Game, but it wasn't always like that. A lot of people were introduced to televised Starcraft by iTV circa 2000, which was on national television in some parts of the country, unlike the other cable network broadcasts.
I think the only constant we had in the scene was OGN StarLeague as a premier tournament with great participation, television coverage, good viewership, and high overall prize pool since its first official incarnation in 2000. There were a bunch of large scale tournaments that were played with records lost forever such as Seoul World Championship and APGL. Global tournaments such as PGL and WCGC, and WCG Finals were quite prestigious depending on the era. We had brief moments when GhemTV, iTV, and Gembc (later became MBC Game) all struggled for the title of the second biggest e-Sports broadcasting company after Ongamenet. We saw the rise of a third "super league" in the form of KT-KTF Premier League, and had GomTV Classic trying to match the other two individual leagues without much success due to political reasons in the modern era. From the interactions I've had on this site, only the most recent events seem to be remembered. I wanted to change that.
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EPT
