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Active: 9562 users

I guess, we're superdetermined!

Blogs > thePunGun
Post a Reply
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 20:30:32
September 23 2016 16:49 GMT
#1
HI guys, it's been a while!

As you might remember from my previous blog, I've been diagnosed with multiple thoughts disorder.
(for specific details visit the old blog)

And because of that diagnosis I wanted to know more about the conscious mind.
But to my surprise, we really don't have a sense of how the brain works and how it functions
as an information processing organ.
All I've found, were theories, which unfortunately all lacked proper proof..
...and as a perfectionist I cannot accept that
So I turned to physics and stumbled upon 2 interesting articles about free will:

http://spacetimecentre.org/vpetkov/free-will.html

http://backreaction.blogspot.de/2016/01/free-will-is-dead-lets-bury-it.html

Both authors are convinced and I qoute:
"To our best present understanding of the fundamental laws of nature, everything that happens in our universe is due to only four different forces: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear force. These forces have been extremely well studied, and they don’t leave any room for free will."
(Sabine Hossenfelder, Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies)

This theory wasn't really news to me, but for the first time,
I've looked at all the information out there and I'm pretty much convinced,
that there is in fact no such thing as free will!

According to Einstein's special relativity, time does not exist in the way we perceive it in our minds. In our universe space and time are linked together as spacetime, the 4th dimension.

Video: Space and Time into a single Continuum

So in conclusion: Our mind's perception of time is an illusion!
The past, present and future of our universe all coexist at once in a four-dimensional worldtube and we perceive our experience of the present like a slide show of spacetime.

This means, that there really cannot be free will, because in this 4 dimensional tube the whole universe is predetermined. The past entirely predicts the future and therefore our decisions, every choice we may think we have, has already been determined.(superdeterminism/indeterminism)

For the first time in my life I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders!
Because as a perfectionist, my whole live I've tried to avoid failure, but now I can finally see the irrelevance of it all.
If everything is determined, there can really be only one choice and one outcome.
My life! My choice! My actions! My consequences!
Who needs bogus science like psychology and philosophy, when you have physics!

*****
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
SkrollK
Profile Joined January 2015
France580 Posts
September 23 2016 17:30 GMT
#2
If everything is determined, there is no such thing as 'choice'.

Thus there is no such thing as justice, since one's action cannot be his own to be responsable for since all his determined.

Hence our societies are all bases on lies since there is no justice not responsibility for anything...



Worlds is a lie !!! Mwhahahaha
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
September 23 2016 17:30 GMT
#3
Even in a non deterministic universe your choices wouldn't matter considering your insignifance in the grand scheme of things.
I think esports is pretty nice.
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-23 18:29:47
September 23 2016 18:27 GMT
#4
free-will may not be relevant / a thing from the perspective of the universe, but from the perspective of human beings , our friends and family and the world around us, it certainly is a thing and we all encourage one another to be part of it. ganbate yo~
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-23 18:49:33
September 23 2016 18:40 GMT
#5
On September 24 2016 02:30 SkrollK wrote:
If everything is determined, there is no such thing as 'choice'.

Thus there is no such thing as justice, since one's action cannot be his own to be responsable for since all his determined.

Hence our societies are all bases on lies since there is no justice not responsibility for anything...



Worlds is a lie !!! Mwhahahaha


Even without free will, we're still responsible for our actions!
Because our actions (predetermined or not) determine the kind of person we are/will be and how we are perceived by others.
Superdeterminism is being criticised for that very reason, people fear that modern civilization will break down and that humanity might use it as an excuse for their actions. But that assumption is ridiculous, if everything is in fact predetermined, it will not make a difference.
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
imgbaby
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
158 Posts
September 23 2016 19:33 GMT
#6
Hey, if it makes you happy then it's a good scientific fact.
Like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in some midnight choir I have tried in my way to be free
SkrollK
Profile Joined January 2015
France580 Posts
September 23 2016 20:47 GMT
#7
On September 24 2016 03:40 thePunGun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 02:30 SkrollK wrote:
If everything is determined, there is no such thing as 'choice'.

Thus there is no such thing as justice, since one's action cannot be his own to be responsable for since all his determined.

Hence our societies are all bases on lies since there is no justice not responsibility for anything...



Worlds is a lie !!! Mwhahahaha


Even without free will, we're still responsible for our actions!
Because our actions (predetermined or not) determine the kind of person we are/will be and how we are perceived by others.
Superdeterminism is being criticised for that very reason, people fear that modern civilization will break down and that humanity might use it as an excuse for their actions. But that assumption is ridiculous, if everything is in fact predetermined, it will not make a difference.


That is the very thing I cant comprehend in that theory, no matter how hard I try

I just fail to see how can be hold responsible for an action if that action HAVE to happen.

I mean, it is just like people believing in some destiny force... If it is written somewhere, just bound to happen, how can one be responsible for nothing ?!

Lets try it like that. If You have no choice, then what makes the difference between you and killer ? Luck ?
Lets imagine for a moment, you are a serial killer. But you cannot not kill someone, you have NO choice.. The choice is already made. So there is NO way ever that you can prevent yourself from killing... You have no choice to kill or not to kill, you have no choice. So how can you be held for responsible ? You HAD NO CHOICE but to do that. No choice. So thats not your fault...

I guess I will never be able to understand how you cannot think like that. Nvm.
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 10:05:14
September 23 2016 21:55 GMT
#8
I just fail to see how can be hold responsible for an action if that action HAVE to happen.

You see, that's the thing, it already happened, we've just not perceived it yet. Try to look at it like this:
The universe is basically a book, that's already been written and we the characters make decisions and take action on every single page in every single sentence.
Who knows the universe might have been created by the big bang and perished instantly and we wouldn't notice.
Because we only exist in a tiny aspect of a small segment of spacetime.


Lets try it like that. If You have no choice, then what makes the difference between you and killer ? Luck ?


But you have a choice, the universe does not make that choice for you, you do. The fact that this choice is predetermined matters little, because we make choices based on our experiences from the past, which automatically predetermines your decision and therefore the future.
I know it might be hard to believe, but hundreds of scientists and thousands of experiments in the last century since Einstein's discovery of spacetime, have all come to the same conclusion.
Time is an illusion, there is only spacetime and we live in a superdeterministic/indeterministic universe which contradicts the idea of free will entirely.
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
September 24 2016 00:38 GMT
#9
Determinism is a causal stance that everything is caused. It is not clear that this always demands an explanation. According to my own theory of choice (from an economic perspective), we have one choice or another as opposed to decision process in which we have only one option. To say yes or no to some option is not necessarily ideal because we don't know how we were presented with the option in the first place.

Harry G. Frankfurt, the great man of letters, suggests something along the lines of can we choose what we choose. Is it possible to arrive at a better series of choice.

In the mentioned articles, Frankfurt presents Black, a character who epitomizes this distinction. As I recall, Black is questioned whether to take a drink or else to not take a drink, improving his character-traits. It is frequently suggested that Black drinks the drink and thereby improves his wisdom, allowing freedom in a certain sense.

The question to the reader is whether contingent freedom, freedom dependent on drinks or variables outside the question are relevant to decision-theory. Is this a real choice or one that depends on hidden variables?
IQ 155.905638752
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
September 24 2016 00:41 GMT
#10
The alternative presented to determinism is randomness, or unexplained variation. But what does this mean? From a practical stance we are given to elect from a variety of possibilities. Is there such thing as an efficient cause and if there is, are we an agent in choice? Indeterminism seems wildly pessimistic, supposing that we simply cannot find even one appealing cause to explain some event. Surely we can suppose at least some grounds as explicating the nature of an event. If not then we are left in the dark, but are not writing off causal law altogether.
IQ 155.905638752
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
September 24 2016 02:48 GMT
#11
I mean I can argue, did I really "choose" to write this sentence, or did all the happenings of the entire universe including my brain activity at this particular moment destine me to write it? I don't think it makes much difference either way...
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
imgbaby
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
158 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 04:27:17
September 24 2016 04:10 GMT
#12
but what dictates gravity and electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces?

edit I really don't care about this issue. I have the illusion of choice and to me that is enough.
Like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in some midnight choir I have tried in my way to be free
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 04:35:05
September 24 2016 04:34 GMT
#13
There are many things in academia we might disagree with. So for instance, presenting a dichotomy like: 'free will vs. determinism' is a popular choice, or so it seems.

It is important to keep in mind, the people choosing this presentation are apparently quite invested in the issue. If you spend 4 hours a day pondering metaphysical theory your idea of determinism will be expansive. This suggests that what a metaphysician might apply as a theory of determinism could contrast with what a philosopher of ethics requires of free will.

But on the other hand, determinism may mean nothing like "event X is bound to happen". It is in practice a mind-boggling paradox to say anything like event X is bound to happen.

Actually in the presentation I would prefer we would not make a wild claim like events are aligning akin to the gears of a clock. They could be in some case. For instance, if we had a pulley system, we could crank the pulleys and lug up a scuba diver. This doesn't suggest determinism of the form we are supposing. It is an ordinary and even apparently unremarkable observation that humans can bring about some event.

There is quite a bit in the universe to suggest alternatives to what we might associate with hard determinism: that literally every event is destined to happen at time and place x,y. Actually many writers of psychology with respect to this topic maintain very strong opinions about mindset.

Take mindset to be what you will; whether it is a conscious state somehow unexplained, a perceptual state, or some kind of information cloud. This perhaps is the appeal of the principle. There is a great deal of variance potentially experienced and unexplained. A positive mindset is a panacea.

Even if, so-to-speak determinism were 'true' in the sense we are inclined to use the term.... It might be utterly meaningless to us as humans. That is to say that events could be broadly determined enough that for our intents and purposes we had free will.

A unilateral, one-directional flow of time seems to be the danger here. If I get extremely drunk I might not think at all, I might not elect between any alternative choices (like I normally would). Moments where I might think oh boy I am a speeding bullet (like none other). Hopefully you see where this might rebound.

There is at least in some theory, preference for alternative. Most models of time presented by physicists involve quite a variety of locales and origins. Try to imagine a model of space-time with only one origin (like the big bang model). It dawns tempting to suppose such a model as descriptive of space-time from a very broad perspective.

But at the local level, it is not obvious at all that such a model tells us anything about what will happen. Speaking of time we are usually talking about our own perception of events. That there is some unification between these local events and global events, we are certain. But it might for instance behoove the evolution of perception to reverse-order events (as they happen in global space-time). Or else, the events may be ordered in the brain according to what is good for the agent. There is no reason to suppose we perceive an order of events independently. For example, why do we perceive red as red, blue as blue, and make certain aesthetic or normative evaluations instinctively? Time may be like this.

There is no reason to suppose we see it clearly.
IQ 155.905638752
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
September 24 2016 13:45 GMT
#14
Im not going to go into a whole lot of detail, but I think you're on to something here.

I've studied similar theories before and they tend to have a lot of meaning to me, and that's how I find truths.

All will fall into place.
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 16:37:43
September 24 2016 14:39 GMT
#15
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I really appreciate it!
And just because all evidence points to determinism in our current spacetime slide does not mean, that it won't be debunked in a few decades or centuries.
Or maybe humanity will someday be able to predict every single event that's bound to happen.
I'm just happy, I've found a way not to overthink every single decision I make.
But I also find it fascinating, that all lives in the entire universe may have already been lived...every single star may have died already...Its' kinda creepy, but kinda of fascinating.
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
September 24 2016 17:27 GMT
#16
i honestly think the physicists you're quoting are intentionally make a pun. because of their choice of words (nuclear force, gravity). what they are saying is it is so aggravating to suggest there is no free will. therefore, anyone who suggests there is no free will is asking to be murdered.

but the physicists are confident in their work. they think they are likely/unlikely to be murdered by physics. therefore, the physicists are actually asking people to murder them physically. they are saying prove to me there is free will. come murder me. why else would i make you so angry by suggesting there is no free will.

it's like arguing i am on iTunes and saw me being devoured by an ant. i tried to warn me but in fact i was looking through the ant's eyes and the ant was harvesting a blade of grass.
IQ 155.905638752
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 18:24:17
September 24 2016 18:16 GMT
#17
Well murdering someone for their beliefs or opinions has been going on for millennia. It's kinda humanity's unique selling proposition, it's what we're known for. So I guess, it only proves the point they're trying to make: "The past predicts the present and the future"

I don't think the illusion of free will and only having one choice is a bad thing.
Because at the end of the day it's still my choice! Even if it's the only choice I have, it won't change how I feel about it.
(It actually helps me not to question myself about every little choice I make, which used to be my "unique selling proposition")
In the words of Ron „Bumblefoot“ Thal: "If i could do it all again i wouldn't change a thing!"
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
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