• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 19:20
CET 01:20
KST 09:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview3RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion Let's talk about Metropolis
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1072 users

Pros and Cons of WCS Challenger 2016

Blogs > desRow
Post a Reply
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
February 12 2016 21:19 GMT
#1
Let's start by acknowledging the grind for Top 16 was incredible! Many players have expressed how alive the ladder felt and how awesome it felt put it all on the line to see if they would make the cut. I personally failed to make it into the league, but I have even more respect for the players above me in this more meaningful ladder.
There are flaws to this system but let's focus on the positives for now, then go over some negatives further below.


Consistency

Above everything else is consistency. How many times have fans and players complained about a tournament format? About having too many rounds that are Best of 3's or single-elimination brackets? Well according to the statistics from the top 16 on EU (https://twitter.com/StarCraft/status/697927765463474176) It took each player an average of 162 games to qualify, and these games were against a wide range of opponents. Players of all styles races against each other over a long, but concentrated, period of time.

Not only were those games at the highest level of each player's capability, but they were on non barcode accounts means it’s far more likely the better player wins. There was no bracket luck here, just pure competition to determine who the best is.


Accessibility

Many players have complained since the release of Legacy of the Void that ladder practice has been lower quality compared to Heart of the Swarm. This WCS Challenger format alleviated a lot of those issues. During most hours, good opponents were plentiful and you were able to play far more quality games than you could have before, a huge benefit to even the pros who did not make the Top 16 cut.


Meaningful ladder rankings

The last time the ladder was used as a qualifier for a Blizzard event was for Blizzcon Regional Qualifiers back in 2011 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_North_American_Battle.net_Invitational). Knowing where you stand amongst your peers in the most competitive form of ranking is actually quite humbling. It's easy to dismiss someone’s ladder ranking as meaningless, but when everyone is giving ladder their all, then meaning of these wins can't be denied.

The benefits of this system are outstanding, and without question a net positive. However, there are some issues that can hopefully be addressed going foward.


Competitive Spirit

For this season of WCS eight players have been invited based off their WCS performances in 2015. For the WCS Spring and Summer Championships WCS points from 2016 will be used to seed players directly into the championship events. On top of the eight players seeded based on last year’s performance fourteen more players have been seeded via non-Challenger qualifiers.

A grand total of 10 out of 16 players in the EU WCS Challenger are already qualified for IEM Katowice. This means that players could qualify for IEM by finishing in 11th and 12th. For NA, 6 players already have a ticket to IEM so the slot could go to someone who is ranked as low as 7th or 8th. The WCS changes increased meaning and importance of the ladder, but they’ve made Challenger League a low stakes online event for more than half the players participating.

There are a few ways to fix this. We could prohibit Championship Invited players from participating in Challenger, but could hurt the quality of the ladder, especially for NA. Additionally this penalizes players who were previously successful in WCS and lowers the level of play in Challenger. Another solution could be to prohibit Invited players from participating in the Challenger tournament while compensating them by paying out prize money to the top 32 of the ladder.
In my opinion, what would make the most sense to create a high quality Challenger tournament would be to remove the WCS invite slots, increase the number of Challenger\Server qualifiers, and have the Challenger qualifier take place before the server qualifiers.

An example of redistribution could be: 4 qualifying slots added to EU Challenger, since Europe Server Qualifier still includes the same players. 2 slots to NA Challenger and the final 2 slots given to Americas Server qualifier which would benefit South America, Taiwan and the SEA Region.


Server selection

NA has a problem that EU doesn't. With the introduction of Legacy of the Void, we NA players were given the chance to select which server we play our games. This was added to help Australia and South America have better latency while still being part of the NA Ladder.

While it does help with foreign latency, it caused a problem where players who kept the server selection "Best match" would end up on an Australian or Brazilian server with unwanted, inflated latency. Due to this, about half the players selected the West server, the other half the East server. This created devide within the North American players on the North American ladder.

Additionally, undesired opponents can be dodged simply by playing a different prefered server, and it becomes more of a game of "who can avoid the strong players" more than a game of StarCraft. This is something that needs to be addressed so that the players are not isolated and the final ranking has unquestionable merit.

One of the ways to fix it would be to force/lock the server for the duration of the qualifier. Central should be the server enforced as it is the most neutral for all of North America. Australians and Brazilians would suffer, but it would only last two weeks and they are not part of the Challenger qualification process. The best case scenario for the longevity of the ladder would be to introduce a "NA Region" in the server list which guarantees you a game on either west, central or east.


Conclusion

I am grateful for Blizzard's initiative to revive the ladder in a meaningful way. I hope the changes I proposed are considered in a serious manner and hopefully implemented for the Spring Championship.

If you read this far, thank you.

Marc-Olivier "desRow" Proulx


***
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
joshie0808
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1024 Posts
February 12 2016 21:52 GMT
#2
Thanks for your thoughts Desrow! Hopefully you make it in next time, these are good points.
Gluon
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands405 Posts
February 12 2016 21:55 GMT
#3
Great blog, thanks!
Administrator
woopr
Profile Joined December 2012
United States112 Posts
February 12 2016 22:50 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
HoZBlooddrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Italy324 Posts
February 12 2016 23:38 GMT
#5
pretty good points, gg!
-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada393 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-13 01:22:31
February 13 2016 01:20 GMT
#6
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-13 01:28:33
February 13 2016 01:26 GMT
#7
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.
qxc
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States550 Posts
February 13 2016 10:25 GMT
#8
On February 13 2016 07:50 woopr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:19 desRow wrote:
The best case scenario for the longevity of the ladder would be to introduce a "NA Region" in the server list which guarantees you a game on either west, central or east.



would be really nice. all i want is to avoid aus/br servers


I emailed Dkim on this issue about a week ago so /fingerscrossed
ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
February 13 2016 11:11 GMT
#9
On February 13 2016 10:26 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.


let's be honest. 100 games in a week is even quite low if you're a full time pro. However this qualifier wasn't all about playing the most games.
Zest fanboy.
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
February 13 2016 15:13 GMT
#10
awesome feedback desrow, best of luck!
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4139 Posts
February 13 2016 15:27 GMT
#11
On February 13 2016 20:11 sAsImre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 10:26 ZAiNs wrote:
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.


let's be honest. 100 games in a week is even quite low if you're a full time pro. However this qualifier wasn't all about playing the most games.

without queue time you could have played 50 more games weekly.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
00:00
FSL TeamLeague Semis PTB vs RR
Freeedom20
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 1088
PiGStarcraft196
JuggernautJason152
SpeCial 49
mouzStarbuck 41
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2142
ggaemo 47
Counter-Strike
Foxcn191
Other Games
summit1g13225
Grubby5068
tarik_tv4671
shahzam411
JimRising 296
C9.Mang0200
ToD120
ViBE59
Mew2King51
PPMD50
Trikslyr47
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick600
StarCraft 2
angryscii 28
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 64
• RyuSc2 54
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 20
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21814
League of Legends
• Doublelift3102
Other Games
• imaqtpie2493
• Shiphtur214
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
4h 10m
StarCraft2.fi
9h 40m
IPSL
16h 40m
Sziky vs JDConan
OSC
16h 40m
Solar vs Percival
Gerald vs Nicoract
Creator vs ByuN
RSL Revival
1d 4h
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
1d 12h
herO vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs herO
SHIN vs Clem
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs ShoWTimE
IPSL
1d 16h
Tarson vs DragOn
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
RSL Offline Finals
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.