• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:21
CEST 05:21
KST 12:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL39Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak15
Community News
Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3Weekly Cups (May 19-25): Hindsight is 20/20?0DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack8[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage3EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)71
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL Is there a place to provide feedback for maps? Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2) CN community: Firefly accused of suspicious activities
Tourneys
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) WardiTV Mondays RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Battle.net is not working Which player typ excels at which race or match up?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage [BSL20] RO20 Group D - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Mechabellum Monster Hunter Wilds Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread US Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Research study on team perfo…
TrAiDoS
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 15100 users

Pros and Cons of WCS Challenger 2016

Blogs > desRow
Post a Reply
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
February 12 2016 21:19 GMT
#1
Let's start by acknowledging the grind for Top 16 was incredible! Many players have expressed how alive the ladder felt and how awesome it felt put it all on the line to see if they would make the cut. I personally failed to make it into the league, but I have even more respect for the players above me in this more meaningful ladder.
There are flaws to this system but let's focus on the positives for now, then go over some negatives further below.


Consistency

Above everything else is consistency. How many times have fans and players complained about a tournament format? About having too many rounds that are Best of 3's or single-elimination brackets? Well according to the statistics from the top 16 on EU (https://twitter.com/StarCraft/status/697927765463474176) It took each player an average of 162 games to qualify, and these games were against a wide range of opponents. Players of all styles races against each other over a long, but concentrated, period of time.

Not only were those games at the highest level of each player's capability, but they were on non barcode accounts means it’s far more likely the better player wins. There was no bracket luck here, just pure competition to determine who the best is.


Accessibility

Many players have complained since the release of Legacy of the Void that ladder practice has been lower quality compared to Heart of the Swarm. This WCS Challenger format alleviated a lot of those issues. During most hours, good opponents were plentiful and you were able to play far more quality games than you could have before, a huge benefit to even the pros who did not make the Top 16 cut.


Meaningful ladder rankings

The last time the ladder was used as a qualifier for a Blizzard event was for Blizzcon Regional Qualifiers back in 2011 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_North_American_Battle.net_Invitational). Knowing where you stand amongst your peers in the most competitive form of ranking is actually quite humbling. It's easy to dismiss someone’s ladder ranking as meaningless, but when everyone is giving ladder their all, then meaning of these wins can't be denied.

The benefits of this system are outstanding, and without question a net positive. However, there are some issues that can hopefully be addressed going foward.


Competitive Spirit

For this season of WCS eight players have been invited based off their WCS performances in 2015. For the WCS Spring and Summer Championships WCS points from 2016 will be used to seed players directly into the championship events. On top of the eight players seeded based on last year’s performance fourteen more players have been seeded via non-Challenger qualifiers.

A grand total of 10 out of 16 players in the EU WCS Challenger are already qualified for IEM Katowice. This means that players could qualify for IEM by finishing in 11th and 12th. For NA, 6 players already have a ticket to IEM so the slot could go to someone who is ranked as low as 7th or 8th. The WCS changes increased meaning and importance of the ladder, but they’ve made Challenger League a low stakes online event for more than half the players participating.

There are a few ways to fix this. We could prohibit Championship Invited players from participating in Challenger, but could hurt the quality of the ladder, especially for NA. Additionally this penalizes players who were previously successful in WCS and lowers the level of play in Challenger. Another solution could be to prohibit Invited players from participating in the Challenger tournament while compensating them by paying out prize money to the top 32 of the ladder.
In my opinion, what would make the most sense to create a high quality Challenger tournament would be to remove the WCS invite slots, increase the number of Challenger\Server qualifiers, and have the Challenger qualifier take place before the server qualifiers.

An example of redistribution could be: 4 qualifying slots added to EU Challenger, since Europe Server Qualifier still includes the same players. 2 slots to NA Challenger and the final 2 slots given to Americas Server qualifier which would benefit South America, Taiwan and the SEA Region.


Server selection

NA has a problem that EU doesn't. With the introduction of Legacy of the Void, we NA players were given the chance to select which server we play our games. This was added to help Australia and South America have better latency while still being part of the NA Ladder.

While it does help with foreign latency, it caused a problem where players who kept the server selection "Best match" would end up on an Australian or Brazilian server with unwanted, inflated latency. Due to this, about half the players selected the West server, the other half the East server. This created devide within the North American players on the North American ladder.

Additionally, undesired opponents can be dodged simply by playing a different prefered server, and it becomes more of a game of "who can avoid the strong players" more than a game of StarCraft. This is something that needs to be addressed so that the players are not isolated and the final ranking has unquestionable merit.

One of the ways to fix it would be to force/lock the server for the duration of the qualifier. Central should be the server enforced as it is the most neutral for all of North America. Australians and Brazilians would suffer, but it would only last two weeks and they are not part of the Challenger qualification process. The best case scenario for the longevity of the ladder would be to introduce a "NA Region" in the server list which guarantees you a game on either west, central or east.


Conclusion

I am grateful for Blizzard's initiative to revive the ladder in a meaningful way. I hope the changes I proposed are considered in a serious manner and hopefully implemented for the Spring Championship.

If you read this far, thank you.

Marc-Olivier "desRow" Proulx


***
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
joshie0808
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1023 Posts
February 12 2016 21:52 GMT
#2
Thanks for your thoughts Desrow! Hopefully you make it in next time, these are good points.
Gluon
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands383 Posts
February 12 2016 21:55 GMT
#3
Great blog, thanks!
Administrator
woopr
Profile Joined December 2012
United States112 Posts
February 12 2016 22:50 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
HoZBlooddrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Italy324 Posts
February 12 2016 23:38 GMT
#5
pretty good points, gg!
-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada393 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-13 01:22:31
February 13 2016 01:20 GMT
#6
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-13 01:28:33
February 13 2016 01:26 GMT
#7
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.
qxc
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States550 Posts
February 13 2016 10:25 GMT
#8
On February 13 2016 07:50 woopr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 06:19 desRow wrote:
The best case scenario for the longevity of the ladder would be to introduce a "NA Region" in the server list which guarantees you a game on either west, central or east.



would be really nice. all i want is to avoid aus/br servers


I emailed Dkim on this issue about a week ago so /fingerscrossed
ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
February 13 2016 11:11 GMT
#9
On February 13 2016 10:26 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.


let's be honest. 100 games in a week is even quite low if you're a full time pro. However this qualifier wasn't all about playing the most games.
Zest fanboy.
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
February 13 2016 15:13 GMT
#10
awesome feedback desrow, best of luck!
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
February 13 2016 15:27 GMT
#11
On February 13 2016 20:11 sAsImre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2016 10:26 ZAiNs wrote:
On February 13 2016 10:20 -HuShang- wrote:
hmm... actually pretty reasonable points. I think someone like Epic got skrewed by this qualifier method. He couldnt play as much and all of his games were vs the top 16 players because his mmr was so high. This meant he had to grind way more than other people despite his mmr being good enough to qualify for this event. He was like rank 30 despite having way better mmr than some people that qualified -.-

Playing around 100 games in a week isn't unreasonable for a progamer. Masa made it comfortably in less than 70 games.


let's be honest. 100 games in a week is even quite low if you're a full time pro. However this qualifier wasn't all about playing the most games.

without queue time you could have played 50 more games weekly.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 39m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 221
RuFF_SC2 153
Ketroc 37
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 1068
Icarus 3
Dota 2
monkeys_forever670
League of Legends
JimRising 1350
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0630
Mew2King175
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor144
Other Games
summit1g13732
tarik_tv12569
shahzam766
ViBE294
Maynarde292
WinterStarcraft264
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1012
BasetradeTV153
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH307
• Hupsaiya 94
• davetesta66
• practicex 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 10
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1022
• Stunt248
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
7h 39m
Replay Cast
20h 39m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 20h
Bellum Gens Elite
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Bellum Gens Elite
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Bellum Gens Elite
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
SC Evo League
5 days
Bellum Gens Elite
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
SOOP
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
AllThingsProtoss
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-28
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
2025 GSL S2
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
Murky Cup #2
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.