• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:49
CEST 18:49
KST 01:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror4[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)77Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4) SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Sagi.gg Launcher Released SC4ALL II Brood War Complete Invited Player Lineup 20-year-old Valorant player starting StarCraft Bot on ladder
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7847 users

[SC3] The Next Step

Blogs > YokoKano
Post a Reply
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 18 2015 04:14 GMT
#1
Well, why did I title this post "SC3"? Because it is a take on SC2 from an SC1 perspective: What went right in the design? What problems did it cause?

Specifically, what I'm interested in, and the reason I mention consciousness in the way that I do, is that I want to take a look at the remarkably high variance in Brood War mechanics and how that formula, if you will, translated into the elegant "mathematical" game that is SC2. To borrow a metaphor from Doyle Brunson, Starcraft 2 is to Limit Hold 'em what Starcraft: Brood War is to No Limit Hold 'em. As famously commented in Brunson's Super System, "Limit is a more intelligent game."

But why is Limit a more intelligent game? Why is Starcraft 2 a more intelligent game than Brood War? The answer is intuition.

Strictly speaking, we could define intuition as a reliable way to obtain correct answers that cannot be obtained by deduction. In some ways we could refer to answers obtained by intuition as "super correct", better than 100%. Most people aren't happy with this because it doesn't seem scientific. How did you arrive at this correct answer (and are you sure it's correct? -- how do you know?). Because it is not always apparent how to reproduce the logic of intuition, intuitive claims are often dismissed. Thus people are comfortable with comments like, "Starcraft 2 is a more intelligent game."

Heh, but in the case of Starcraft: Brood War such critics of intuition are silenced. Why? Because the intuitive answers are indeed "super correct".

Vulture Patrol Micro
Building Walls
Mutalisk Micro
"Maynarding"
Mine Drags
Worker Pathing in Combat
.
.
.

Brood War has a number of super correct solutions that are so far superior to the alternatives that they irrefutably right. What's remarkable about these super correct solutions is that they are quite difficult or impossible to discover deductively. In terms of a bell curve, or probability grid, the chances of even a highly intelligent player discovering any one of these solutions by "thinking it through" is low. But this is not the only element contributing to the super correctness of the solutions. On the contrary, what's impressive about these solutions is not only are they difficult to think up, they're also super effective.

ZvZ is entirely characterized by Mutalisk Micro: Chinese Triangling and Overlord or Drone stacking.
ZvT only marginally less so.
ZvP (disgruntled muttering)

In Brood War, top level play of the Zerg race is 60% impossible without excellent Mutalisk Micro.

Unfortunately I don't have time to give an exhaustive treatment of all the super correct intuitive solutions in Brood War. I leave it to the connoisseur to consider the other races, elegance like Stork's Corsair/Reaver, Boxer's Dropship Micro, The Nexus EMP + Nuke, or Nal_rA.

Anyway, the reason I'm making this post is that I was reading an excellent book by Robert Anton Wilson titled Quantum Psychology, and in the chapter "Star Makers," Wilson gives a treatment of a 1965 discovery in physics called "Bell's Theorem." While I was reading, it occurred to me that I had finally found the crucial explanation for Starcraft 2. In short, Bell's Theorem says, "Some sort of non-local correlation exists between any two particles that once came in contact."

Interesting.

The example given in the book is of two men, one in Dublin and one in Honolulu. The law applies to them that whenever the man in Dublin dons green socks, the man in Honolulu dons red socks. It is observed that this correlation is in effect instantaneous. That is, when the man in Dublin dons green socks, the man in Honolulu is observed to instantaneously don red socks. Since signals travel at the speed of light or less they cannot cause an instantaneous response. Thus we have "information without transportation" or else "Correlation without connection".

What does this have to do with intuition? The argument is that these super correct solutions would not appear in Brood War with such reliability if there had not been some conscious intent. On the contrary, the game had to be designed with such equilibria intended to emerge at certain stages of accumulated theory. The interesting question is not simply how one intentionally designs such an exercise in synchronicity. The interesting question is how extreme unchecked volatility like the discovery of Mutalisk Micro could be introduced without completely destabilizing game balance. Nevertheless, it seems the Brood War design team managed this feat although the last patch aimed at game balance appears to have been 1.08 released in 2001.

So, what do you think happened to the Starcraft formula between Brood War and now? Do you believe the conjecture that non-local correlation was intentional in the design of Starcraft: Brood War? Does the theory of non-local correlation provide any insight on death balls and hard counters? Do you think the prevalence of super correct solutions in Starcraft 2 is greater or less than that of Brood War?

Discuss.

*
IQ 155.905638752
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 18 2015 04:24 GMT
#2
In general, I would say that Starcraft 2 seems to isolate entwined statistical phenomena very well. If we were to compare the Oracle opening in PvT to the Reaver Shuttle opening we see two very similar operations carried out very differently. It's tough to say which is the more interesting, although the Oracle is without a doubt the more calculated.
IQ 155.905638752
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
August 18 2015 05:15 GMT
#3
lol @ "60% impossible"
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10871 Posts
August 19 2015 02:49 GMT
#4
Hold on, let me read this again.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10871 Posts
August 19 2015 02:50 GMT
#5
On August 19 2015 11:49 GGzerG wrote:
Hold on, let me read this again.


EDIT : wat
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 19 2015 04:20 GMT
#6
I honestly see love as being the foundation for non-local correlation. The man and the woman eggs and sperm come together in a shared destiny so the two people now share the same destiny through the third person.

I think Starcraft 2 is a man's attempt to "rationalize" or reason about love from the modern perspective. He can write 0, false and 1 true so much better than the early humans of Starcraft 1 but he doesn't believe in the magic of love.

He is like Children of Men. His life is perfect but he can't bring forth the mysterious magic of children. So his life is pointless. He needs the magic of love and the magic of children to bring forth the true essence of Starcraft.
IQ 155.905638752
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
August 19 2015 11:12 GMT
#7
You might actually get hired if you apply as a game designer at Blizzard.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
August 19 2015 17:14 GMT
#8
On August 19 2015 20:12 LaLuSh wrote:
You might actually get hired if you apply as a game designer at Blizzard.


He would be very valuable if hired to answer interview questions when they want to be passive aggressive.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 19 2015 17:15 GMT
#9
I was rejected.
IQ 155.905638752
hymn
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Bulgaria832 Posts
August 19 2015 19:39 GMT
#10
On August 19 2015 13:20 YokoKano wrote:
The man and the woman eggs and sperm come together in a shared destiny so the two people now share the same destiny through the third person.


Why do you think the parents share the same destiny is beyond me. I have a daughter and I for sure don't share a destiny with my wife.
azk he is the north american player but the titan he is the french stars
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 19 2015 19:50 GMT
#11
What are you implying about longevity? Why doesn't your wife share destiny?
IQ 155.905638752
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
August 19 2015 22:00 GMT
#12
On August 19 2015 13:20 YokoKano wrote:
I honestly see love as being the foundation for non-local correlation. The man and the woman eggs and sperm come together in a shared destiny so the two people now share the same destiny through the third person.

I think Starcraft 2 is a man's attempt to "rationalize" or reason about love from the modern perspective. He can write 0, false and 1 true so much better than the early humans of Starcraft 1 but he doesn't believe in the magic of love.

He is like Children of Men. His life is perfect but he can't bring forth the mysterious magic of children. So his life is pointless. He needs the magic of love and the magic of children to bring forth the true essence of Starcraft.


Something you leave out is that StarCraft is a game based around war and death. When units die, they don't just slump over on the ground. They explode violently into pools of blood. I feel like there's an element of grittiness that was kind of lost on the polished feel of SC2.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
August 20 2015 06:46 GMT
#13
On August 20 2015 07:00 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2015 13:20 YokoKano wrote:
I honestly see love as being the foundation for non-local correlation. The man and the woman eggs and sperm come together in a shared destiny so the two people now share the same destiny through the third person.

I think Starcraft 2 is a man's attempt to "rationalize" or reason about love from the modern perspective. He can write 0, false and 1 true so much better than the early humans of Starcraft 1 but he doesn't believe in the magic of love.

He is like Children of Men. His life is perfect but he can't bring forth the mysterious magic of children. So his life is pointless. He needs the magic of love and the magic of children to bring forth the true essence of Starcraft.


Something you leave out is that StarCraft is a game based around war and death. When units die, they don't just slump over on the ground. They explode violently into pools of blood. I feel like there's an element of grittiness that was kind of lost on the polished feel of SC2.


sc2 all plasticine and no grunge
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
August 20 2015 11:21 GMT
#14
On August 20 2015 07:00 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2015 13:20 YokoKano wrote:
I honestly see love as being the foundation for non-local correlation. The man and the woman eggs and sperm come together in a shared destiny so the two people now share the same destiny through the third person.

I think Starcraft 2 is a man's attempt to "rationalize" or reason about love from the modern perspective. He can write 0, false and 1 true so much better than the early humans of Starcraft 1 but he doesn't believe in the magic of love.

He is like Children of Men. His life is perfect but he can't bring forth the mysterious magic of children. So his life is pointless. He needs the magic of love and the magic of children to bring forth the true essence of Starcraft.


Something you leave out is that StarCraft is a game based around war and death. When units die, they don't just slump over on the ground. They explode violently into pools of blood. I feel like there's an element of grittiness that was kind of lost on the polished feel of SC2.

EXACTLY what I have been thinking about SC2 from the get go.
This and the debris buildings leave behind in BW after they have been destroyed.

Battlefields in SC2 look so clean and absolutely boring with everything vanishing instantly. In BW, when shit gets real, you can actually SEE it.
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
August 20 2015 13:12 GMT
#15
why do the chinese have their own triangles?
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
YokoKano
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States612 Posts
August 20 2015 14:07 GMT
#16
People identify the Chinese triangle with the Chinese because the technique was first ventured by the Chinese. It's a good technique. Not comparable to larva grouping (what later became Overlord grouping), but it's one I would seriously consider influential in the latter days of Brood War. I don't triangle for the same reason I don't magic box. Despite thousands of hours played I simply will not set aside the time to practice gimmicks because they detract from the spirit of the game. I mean what's really going on is strategy, plain and simple. There's nothing interesting about endless dexterity drills, and to be honest with you I think the developers should just patch inappropriate content.
IQ 155.905638752
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
01:00
Patch Clash Monthly #2
RotterdaM627
TKL 206
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 627
ByuN 218
TKL 206
ProTech143
UpATreeSC 65
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 28973
Calm 3285
Shuttle 1492
Horang2 499
Mini 431
Soulkey 222
Rush 179
firebathero 124
Mind 75
Zeus 69
[ Show more ]
hero 51
Shine 43
Hyun 38
Free 34
sorry 25
ToSsGirL 23
Terrorterran 23
PianO 22
Trap 20
Aegong 18
Killer 18
JYJ 16
Sexy 16
Rock 15
Bale 15
scan(afreeca) 15
HiyA 13
Sacsri 9
Hm[arnc] 8
Noble 5
Dota 2
Gorgc6776
Dendi1470
League of Legends
KnowMe25
Counter-Strike
fl0m3867
Fnx 543
x6flipin360
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King71
ChuDatz30
Other Games
singsing1963
Liquid`RaSZi1450
Beastyqt556
ceh9495
Khaldor337
crisheroes260
C9.Mang0245
dupreeh243
420jenkins210
Livibee206
IndyStarCraft 130
QueenE101
Trikslyr92
Dewaltoss73
JuggernautJason6
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream25
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH279
• Hinosc 13
• Reevou 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3452
• WagamamaTV593
League of Legends
• Nemesis2475
• TFBlade484
Other Games
• Shiphtur900
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
17h 11m
INu's Battles
18h 11m
Percival vs SHIN
Zoun vs herO
OSC
20h 11m
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 6h
OSC
2 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Patches Events
3 days
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
HCC Season 3
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.