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On April 09 2015 23:24 QuanticHawk wrote:
I'm not a fan of policing someone's opinions expressed outside of their job. Doxxing/causing trouble by claling his boss is lame, even if the person is stupid and callous and wrong.
At the same time, I have no idea why anyone would want to make themselves an easy target for a doxxer by making your place of employment known... or just dabbling in political posts on your profile.
If it's wrong and perpetuates a huge problem in our society, I wouldn't find "it's lame" to be a very convincing argument as to why you shouldn't try to help solve the problem. Holding the police accountable to high standards, the words they speak, and the actions they take should be incredibly important, especially given the tragedies that have been happening at the hands of cops over the past few years.
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I'm for holding cops to a high standard with them on duty as far actions, how they talk to people, etc. This is one of the few instances where the local pd's response has been on point with charging him with murder and stating exactly how what transpired is totally unacceptable. most other recent cases in the news had a whole lot of gray area in them. This didn't. Certainly in a scuffle a guy going for a gun could pose a deadly threat, and lethal response would be appropriate. This show pretty clearly that was not the case.
So yeah while this guy is pretty clearly wrong and a dick, I just don't at all like having your opinions policed by an employer while off work hours/not representing the company no matter who the person is. 'if it's wrong and it perpetuates a huge problem in our society' can be used to justify a whole lot of things. Should you be policed if you criticize anything about feminism? What about if you're criticizing something about religion, politics, etc.
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On April 09 2015 23:50 QuanticHawk wrote:
I'm for holding cops to a high standard with them on duty as far actions, how they talk to people, etc. This is one of the few instances where the local pd's response has been on point with charging him with murder and stating exactly how what transpired is totally unacceptable. most other recent cases in the news had a whole lot of gray area in them. This didn't. Certainly in a scuffle a guy going for a gun could pose a deadly threat, and lethal response would be appropriate. This show pretty clearly that was not the case.
So yeah while this guy is pretty clearly wrong and a dick, I just don't at all like having your opinions policed by an employer while off work hours/not representing the company no matter who the person is. 'if it's wrong and it perpetuates a huge problem in our society' can be used to justify a whole lot of things. Should you be policed if you criticize anything about feminism? What about if you're criticizing something about religion, politics, etc.
I think that's a pretty interesting point to explore, and I think it depends on context and what your actual job is. The cop's remark was at odds with his profession, and one should be responsible for the words they say. You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. If I taught at an all-girls school, and then at night I wrote blogs trivializing pedophilia and raping women (or said it in a bar or some other public forum, etc.), I would think that I would be held accountable in some sense. It's a reflection on me, my philosophies, and what I bring to the table as both a person and a professional. If we're talking about some other random person with a job not even remotely linked to young girls, then maybe there's more leeway for that person.
Was the cop's remark in bad taste? Of course.
Is he definitely going to put his words into actions and go on a rampage and kill people because of "natural selection"? Almost certainly not.
Should he still be held responsible for his trivialization of a very important issue surrounding his profession- an issue that has a tangible body count? I personally think so.
I just don't think that kind of behavior should be excusable just because he's not in a cop car wearing his badge at that very moment.
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"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright.
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On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright.
so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences?
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On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright.
You don't think people should be able to get in trouble for the things they post on social media? Why not?
I'm not saying he should necessarily be fired or anything super drastic, but maybe something as minor as his superior officer calling him in and saying "Maybe it's not such a great idea to say that kind of thing about a sensitive subject that we're responsible for". I don't see the harm in that. Holding people accountable for their opinions and what they say and do... what's the problem?
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On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock.
No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so?
I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ...
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On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ...
Your liberties aren't taken away. You have the right to say whatever you want (with the exception of the rare caveat that can cause mass panic and harm, like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater). You have your freedoms of speech and expression (at least, in America). But that doesn't mean you're exempt from consequences. You can get fired or beaten up or worse for exercising certain rights in poor taste.
If you don't want to represent your business, find one that doesn't care about you spreading a philosophy that directly conflicts with their message. I'd imagine there aren't many. It's a matter of discretion. You want to vent about work with your family and friends in private or in an area where you won't be heard by your bosses? Fine. You want to post idiocy on social media where everyone can see it? That's a dumb move.
And oh, the irony of you telling me that I "seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people", given the cop's remark...
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On April 10 2015 00:45 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright. so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences?
He did not say anything that would be harmful to anyone. At worst he made a comment that was mildly offensive to those searching for outrage. People should not be thought-policed from saying anything that goes against mainstream thought. If I wanted to live somewhere where mob justice trumps individual liberty, I would move to Britain.
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On April 10 2015 00:56 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:45 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright. so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences? He did not say anything that would be harmful to anyone. At worst he made a comment that was mildly offensive to those searching for outrage. People should not be thought-policed from saying anything that goes against mainstream thought. If I wanted to live somewhere where mob justice trumps individual liberty, I would move to Britain.
You use the term "mainstream thought" as if to say this cop is just a hipster rebel, and not someone who's advocating shooting and killing harmless people. At least we both apparently agree that *not* killing is/ should be considered mainstream.
But just because you have a different philosophy doesn't mean it automatically garners respect or approval. Sometimes people say stupid shit and they get in trouble for it.
Also, this just in: Outrage regarding cops approving of other cops killing harmless people is "mob justice".
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On April 10 2015 00:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ... Your liberties aren't taken away. You have the right to say whatever you want. You have your freedoms of speech and expression (at least, in America). But that doesn't mean you're exempt from consequences. If you don't want to represent your business, find one that doesn't care about you spreading a philosophy that directly conflicts with their message. I'd imagine there aren't many. It's a matter of discretion. You want to vent about work with your family and friends in private or in an area where you won't be heard by your bosses? Fine. You want to post idiocy on social media where everyone can see it? That's a dumb move. And oh, the irony of you telling me that I "seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people", given the cop's remark...
And this response exactly shows how you do not understand what freedom is and what your impact on it is. It's not only about law and hardcoded laws, but also about what you can do without terrible impact on your life. And a society where you could talk freely about what you want outside of being strictly on your duty is completely imaginable and could be working. But people like you are the reason we do not have such society, because your opinion influences opinions of other people and if there is enough of you, the society adopts the given stance. And as a result, mine options of reasonably takeable actions are limited.
Saying that I "have freedom of speech, but must face consequences" is just so incredibly hypocritical because of the same reasons - "hey hey look, we give you the freedom to do it on paper, you are sooooo free man - but if you do it, we will jump on your throat anyway, only it will not be using law enforcement, but societal standards and thus it is absolutely okay and completely different" - how can you not see how much bullshit that is?
And your "irony" remark? I guess what you are trying to say is that the cop's remark has impact on people affected, such as the victim's family and you find it ironical that I talk about the impact of your actions? That's just the same hypocrisy over and over again, because you are trying to make it seem that "making someone feel bad" is the same level of impact as "destroying someone's job and career" and that's just another way to reinforce your desire to manipulate what people are allowed to say and what they are not.
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On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ...
I'd say that you don't represent your employer off the clock, but you represent your social role. If you hear someone in the street say, at the sight of a disabled person, "we should just kill these kind of people", it is shocking, but after all it's his opinion, right? But what if said person is in fact a medical doctor? It becomes even worse, because the social role of said doctor, to be maintained, necessitates the showing of empathy etc etc. Basically, depending on your place in society, there are opinions that you should not, at best have, at worse not show. You may think that it impacts your freedom or whatever, but fact is that it's the real world.
It's the same way with the policeman here : if a random guy employed by a random company with no business to do with policemen and guns said that, it would be, while shocking, not worthy of lifting a finger. But the policeman, as a social role, is here to embody a role of protection of the citizens. Now a policeman saying things like that, and thus implying that policemen are legitimate in killing someone on the basis of what he calls "natural selection" (which basically means "if I find you stupid enough, I gonna shoot you down"), is breaking down his social role. No wonder people's trust in policemen is lower and lower.
On April 10 2015 00:56 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:45 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright. so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences? He did not say anything that would be harmful to anyone. At worst he made a comment that was mildly offensive to those searching for outrage. People should not be thought-policed from saying anything that goes against mainstream thought. If I wanted to live somewhere where mob justice trumps individual liberty, I would move to Britain.
See my post above. It's not about mainstream thought, it's not about individual liberty, it's about society, and it's about ethics.
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On April 10 2015 01:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:56 iamho wrote:On April 10 2015 00:45 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright. so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences? He did not say anything that would be harmful to anyone. At worst he made a comment that was mildly offensive to those searching for outrage. People should not be thought-policed from saying anything that goes against mainstream thought. If I wanted to live somewhere where mob justice trumps individual liberty, I would move to Britain. You use the term "mainstream thought" as if to say this cop is just a hipster rebel, and not someone who's advocating shooting and killing harmless people. At least we both apparently agree that *not* killing is/ should be considered mainstream. But just because you have a different philosophy doesn't mean it automatically garners respect or approval. Sometimes people say stupid shit and they get in trouble for it. Also, this just in: Outrage regarding cops approving of other cops killing harmless people is "mob justice".
The cop was clearly claiming that the man was not innocent. I would disagree with him but he was not advocating killing innocent people.
Yes, it is mob justice when people have to fear making political comments because strangers who have no relation to them and are unharmed by the comments still try to get them disciplined or fired from their jobs. Liberty doesn't just involve government-given liberty.
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On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ...
Well we are talking about a subject pertaining to his job here...
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On April 10 2015 01:04 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ... Your liberties aren't taken away. You have the right to say whatever you want. You have your freedoms of speech and expression (at least, in America). But that doesn't mean you're exempt from consequences. If you don't want to represent your business, find one that doesn't care about you spreading a philosophy that directly conflicts with their message. I'd imagine there aren't many. It's a matter of discretion. You want to vent about work with your family and friends in private or in an area where you won't be heard by your bosses? Fine. You want to post idiocy on social media where everyone can see it? That's a dumb move. And oh, the irony of you telling me that I "seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people", given the cop's remark... And this response exactly shows how you do not understand what freedom is and what your impact on it is. It's not only about law and hardcoded laws, but also about what you can do without terrible impact on your life. And a society where you could talk freely about what you want outside of being strictly on your duty is completely imaginable and could be working. But people like you are the reason we do not have such society, because your opinion influences opinions of other people and if there is enough of you, the society adopts the given stance. And as a result, mine options of reasonably takeable actions are limited. Saying that I "have freedom of speech, but must face consequences" is just so incredibly hypocritical because of the same reasons - "hey hey look, we give you the freedom to do it on paper, you are sooooo free man - but if you do it, we will jump on your throat anyway, only it will not be using law enforcement, but societal standards and thus it is absolutely okay and completely different" - how can you not see how much bullshit that is?
It's not hypocritical at all. Again, there is a level of context and discretion for each of these situations.
You're being way too idealistic. I live in the real world.
If you publicly bad mouth your business, you might get fired or at least scolded. What you did is legal but perhaps not in your best interest, so you need to weigh your options.
If you publicly voice support for hatred or bigotry or murder, you might be ostracized or beaten up. What you did is legal but perhaps not in your best interest.
The list goes on. Feel free to exercise your freedoms, but your freedoms end as soon as they start infringing upon others' rights, and you certainly aren't exempt from the reality of being held accountable for the things you say.
And your "irony" remark? I guess what you are trying to say is that the cop's remark has impact on people affected, such as the victim's family and you find it ironical that I talk about the impact of your actions? That's just the same hypocrisy over and over again, because you are trying to make it seem that "making someone feel bad" is the same level of impact as "destroying someone's job and career" and that's just another way to reinforce your desire to manipulate what people are allowed to say and what they are not.
This cop just wrote a douchey remark. Stop making him out to be some sort of martyr regarding rights. It wasn't a well-reasoned argument or opinion. It was practically a troll comment, and your idea of having unlimited freedom with no responsibility is absurd. If his own words and actions cause him trouble, so be it. And I'm not saying his career should be destroyed. I made that quite clear earlier. However, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's given a quick comment of "Just be a little more careful of what you post on the internet". I think that's appropriate. No one is calling bloody murder on this guy's rights, so no need to overreact.
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On April 10 2015 01:10 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 01:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 10 2015 00:56 iamho wrote:On April 10 2015 00:45 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 00:43 iamho wrote:
"Trivialization of a very important issue" my ass, its a Facebook post, if you want to punish him because you don't agree with his viewpoints then just say so outright. so because it's a Facebook post, it shouldn't have any consequences? He did not say anything that would be harmful to anyone. At worst he made a comment that was mildly offensive to those searching for outrage. People should not be thought-policed from saying anything that goes against mainstream thought. If I wanted to live somewhere where mob justice trumps individual liberty, I would move to Britain. You use the term "mainstream thought" as if to say this cop is just a hipster rebel, and not someone who's advocating shooting and killing harmless people. At least we both apparently agree that *not* killing is/ should be considered mainstream. But just because you have a different philosophy doesn't mean it automatically garners respect or approval. Sometimes people say stupid shit and they get in trouble for it. Also, this just in: Outrage regarding cops approving of other cops killing harmless people is "mob justice". The cop was clearly claiming that the man was not innocent. I would disagree with him but he was not advocating killing innocent people.
My issue is that the cop's remark was advocating killing harmless people. If the victim was being accused of doing something illegal, he should be detained and then held accountable. Not shot several times in the back and killed. That's not justice. That's not the cop's job. And that's what the cop was trivializing when he said "natural selection". It's certainly easier for cops to shoot people instead of capturing them, but this man wasn't a threat to the officer (or anyone else), and so to use lethal force is over the top.
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On April 09 2015 19:12 opisska wrote:
People should not be "reported" because of comments on anything. Stop making such a big deal of everything someone says, stop making people look behind their shoulder everytime their open their mouth or touch their keyboard. It is an attitude that slowly makes our society hell to live in, creating an atmosphere of fear and a situation where everyone can be taken down when he is not careful for a split second and says something that is not 100% politically correct.
I am in no way defending a cop that has shot a guy in the back and I am not trying to argue in favor of the cops in any way, I just hate even the idea of "reporting someone" because of a comment, that's all.
100% Agree with this.
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On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ...
In almost all cases I think I would agree with you.
But OtherWorld's points are interesting too. Police officers are public servants and they have serious obligations to the public safety. It's not like Jimmy at the pizza parlor saying he hates all the parents who come in with screaming kids and the parents start an obnoxious Facebook page to boycott and close the restaurant unless he's fired. A police officer characterizing a cop shooting someone, whether justified or not, as natural selection, doesn't sit right at all. Remember, these are people citizens pay to carry guns around society, keep "liberty" in perspective.
Witch hunts and viral mobs and people getting fired are almost always shit, but it wouldn't hurt for someone to talk to him about this and see whether it's seeping into his work.
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On April 10 2015 02:53 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 00:50 opisska wrote:On April 10 2015 00:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You represent your employer and business, even off the clock. No, I do not. At least I do not want to. Should I be only because people like you want it to be so? I find this way of thinking disgusting. You want to have things in a certain way that you like, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that this desire of your has an impact to other people. I really hate when my liberties are taken away because a lot of people feel like it ... In almost all cases I think I would agree with you. But OtherWorld's points are interesting too. Police officers are public servants and they have serious obligations to the public safety. It's not like Jimmy at the pizza parlor saying he hates all the parents who come in with screaming kids and the parents start an obnoxious Facebook page to boycott and close the restaurant unless he's fired. A police officer characterizing a cop shooting someone, whether justified or not, as natural selection, doesn't sit right at all. Remember, these are people citizens pay to carry guns around society, keep "liberty" in perspective. Witch hunts and viral mobs and people getting fired are almost always shit, but it wouldn't hurt for someone to talk to him about this and see whether it's seeping into his work.
That's what I had been saying.
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I respect Police Officers in that they devote their lives to enforcing the law and keeping people safe
However the recent events that have surfaced are incredibly heinous and the fact the officers in question are not being punished is an affront to both the position and the common man that lives under the rule
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EPT
