[Dota 2] The Winner's advantage - Page 2

BBB

Russian Federation1 Post

April 09 2015 06:26 GMT

#21

I can suggest another solution for this situation. Based not on gold but on base structures armor.
What if, team that feeds hard, gets their base structures armor lowered?
For example, team that has disadvantage in kills, gets minus 0.5*(their kills disadvantage) armor removed from all base structures. If you get some kills, you get some armor back. So, early game feeding gets punished with weak base.

Acetone

United States200 Posts

April 09 2015 06:45 GMT

#22

Disgustingly good post, OP.

On April 09 2015 13:25 Buckyman wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is a way around this, but nobody actually does it.

1) Shove mid continuously at their base so they can't leave as 5 without being obvious about it.
2) Farmed carry takes ancients periodically, but otherwise stands ready to assist the team
3) A support freezes the offlane where the enemy T2 used to be while transitioning towards a carry or aura-wagon.
4) The position 3 is in his own jungle, pulling his own creeps into a stacked small camp to keep the safe lane away from the enemy base. He has Boots of Travel to join the frozen/shoved lane if there's a fight.
5) The remaining two heroes occupy the enemy jungle, farming it while being ready to fight if the enemy goes on mid during the shove or the lane-freezing support.

Result: The high ground defenders have 1 lane of income, compared to 2-3 plus a full jungle. And the team with map control is positioned so that there's no obvious way to initiate an advantaged fight.

I've considered similar ideas before, maintaining lane creep equilibrium far away from the enemy high ground to further starve them, but your specific idea is tailor-made for being smoke ganked. One hero can farm the mid wave while the other 4 are out of sight. Maybe they're just sitting behind their mid farmer, but maybe they're smoking into their woods or through their offlane. If smoked units were still revealed by true sight, this wouldn't be an issue as the winning team could just litter the map with sentries, but alas, 6.79 happened. Maybe this change will be reverted, as early smoke ganks don't seem very impactful anyway.

Furthermore, relying on Boots of Travel to react to enemy movements is so unreliable. Even if you tp the instant you see the enemy make their move, the channeling time could easily make you too late to make a difference, and who knows how far the action is from the nearest creep.

I really like this line of thinking, though. Maybe it'd be feasible with Chen or several Helms of the Dominator.

Surprise.820

United Kingdom1276 Posts

April 09 2015 08:21 GMT

#23

How about revert all hero kill + creep XP and Gold changes to 6.78 or whatever it was called and keep the tower changes.

paper

13196 Posts

April 09 2015 08:22 GMT

#24

I think a good idea would be to have 1-2 controllable neutral building(s) on the map that gives the controlling team (1) +x gold/time, (2) super creeps that push well, or (3) team creep bonuses (e.g. magic resistance, additional armor, or reduced bounty).

Clearly there needs to be another avenue for the winning team to close outside gold and exp, and that might be it.

Bloodghast

Canada5 Posts

April 09 2015 08:36 GMT

#25

actually this bring me to think of something. When teams are strangling other teams in their base, why don't they constantly pull and deny top/bottom lanes to jungle creeps? Wouldn't this effectively deny 1/2 the turtling teams resources?

NeThZOR

South Africa7387 Posts

April 09 2015 09:44 GMT

#26

Mad about your post, the representation was done very well.

Zenmx

Sweden163 Posts

April 09 2015 10:54 GMT

#27

Something really need to be done about buybacks. Generally gives defending team to big of a advantage. Think there should be a 3-5 sec delay after someone buys back and they actually spawn. This gives attacking teams a bit more time to react instead of having to suddenly scramble to make a retreat often losing a hero or two in the process.
Could also modify this idea and have the base buyback delay at 0 seconds and then have it increase by 0.5-1sec for each tower your team have lost. Would be a pretty nice but not gamebreaking advantage for the team with map control.

Another thing that could be done to make breaking base easier is severely reduce the damage tier4 towers do. A big problem with heroes like sniper is that they can defend while standing under their two bodyguard towers. Think reducing the damage tier4 towers do to 25% of their current value would be a good change. Currently they are to much of a crutch for defending teams. Could increase the hitpoints if concerned about this making rushing the throne easier.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

April 09 2015 11:39 GMT

#28

I think you're onto something with your first idea but does it reduce the effectiveness of buying back altogether?

etofok

138 Posts

April 09 2015 11:46 GMT

#29

Cheese for example, after xth Roshan kill, Cheese can now be used on allies and have x range, which increases with more kills. This way the non 6-slotted players can pick cheese and then give a burst of heal to their carry when he needs it in a team fight.

I can already imagine artists drawing pictures of Crystal Maiden and Clockwerk trying to ram a cheese down the Sven's throat while he is being punched by the entire Spartan legion

deadmau

960 Posts

April 09 2015 12:35 GMT

#30

Cute graphs, I'll applaud you for that. Let's tap the brakes on this choo-choo train a bit, and have some discussion. I come from SC, and I know some DotA as well.

I'd like to ask an honest question OP. Given that 6.81b was Early-Snowball

Was the comeback mechanic necessary in 6.82 to in order to bring about balance to the meta like Luke was to bring balance to the Force? Because what we got was far from balance.

Let's take a look at the very beginning.

First, I'd like for us to ignore TCM (The Comeback Mechanic) for one moment.
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Source: [dota2.com][liquidpedia]

HEROES NERFS

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Brewmaster
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Drunken Brawler's critical strike/evasion timer increased from 10 to 16/14/12/10 seconds

- Undernerfed, but received more appropriate nerf later patch

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Death Prophet
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Exorcism cooldown increased from 115 to 135

- Ultimate heavily nerfed, well deserved considering the strength in deathball/push

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Doom
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Doom now requires Aghanim's Scepter to disable passives
Doom ability cast point increased from 0.3 to 0.5

- Ultimate nerfed, deserved, not hero-ending

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Faceless Void
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Chronosphere area of effect reduced from 450 to 425
Chronosphere flying vision area reduced from 1000 to 425
Chronosphere no longer disables passives
Chronosphere's effects no longer linger for an extra 0.5 seconds (like normal auras do) at the end of its duration

- Nerfed

Lycan
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Shapeshift no longer grants 1.5 Base Attack Time
Shapeshift cooldown increased from 100/70/40 to 120/90/60
Shapeshift speed increased from 522 to 650
Shapeshift now has a 1.5 seconds transformation time

- 6.81b star, deserved nerf

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Nature's Prophet
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Nature's Call Treant magic resistance reduced from 20% to 0%

- Slight Treants nerf

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Razor
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Plasma Field minimum damage from 60/100/140/180 to 30/50/70/90 [?]
Static Link no longer ignores Linken's Sphere
Static Link mana cost from 20/30/40/50 to 50
Eye of the Storm no longer lingers through aegis reincarnation

- Strong in Deathball/Push, well deserved hero nerf

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Shadow Shaman
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Shackles mana cost rebalanced from 110/130/155/185 to 140/150/160/170
Mass Serpent Ward cooldown increased from 110 to 120

- Strong in 6.81b, deserved nerf

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Skywrath Mage
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Concussive Shot movement slow rebalanced from 40% to 30/35/40/45%
Concussive Shot is now disjointable
Mystic Flare damage is now dealt over 2.2 seconds instead of 2 seconds

- Well deserved nerf to 6.81b superstar

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Tidehunter
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Anchor Smash damage reduction reduced from 60% to 45/50/55/60%

- Well deserved nerf, had way too easy of a time laning or sneaking of to farm ancients

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Tinker
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March of the Machines no longer affects Spell Immune units [?]

- I don't think there will be much resistance her, well deserved nerf

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Wraith King
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Reincarnation mana cost increased from 140 to 160

- Strong hero that compliments the 6.81b style

HEROES BUFFS

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Axe
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Counter Helix chance to activate increased from 17% to 20%

- Buff to Axe means another slight nerf to Void (Axe being a counter to FV); slight nerf to NP and Push strat in general because of his wave-clearing anti-Push ability.

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Omniknight
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Base armor increased by 1
Purification damage area of effect increased from 240 to 260

- Buff to Omni means slight nerf to Push, Omni is popular to defend in sieges by Push strats.

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Puck
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Dream Coil no longer ignores invisible units or Illusions
Aghanim's Scepter Dream Coil snap stun now pierces Spell Immunity
Aghanim's Scepter Dream Coil snap stun duration increased from 1.5/2.25/3 to 1.5/3/4.5

- Puck was fairly mediocre at the time, and received some great changes. Nothing standing out as game-breaking.

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Phantom Assassin
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Blur minimap hide now has the opposite effect, and is active when no enemies are near

- Buff to PA also a slight nerf to Void
- Buffed by the nerf to Void and Doom's Ultimates

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Slark
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Slark is no longer visible inside Chronosphere during Shadow Dance

- A buff to Slark that is a slight nerf to Void
- As Slark is a good ganker, he's naturally useful in picking off Push strat, especially when they start sieging away from the safety of their own towers.

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Sniper
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Headshot now causes a 0.5 second 100% MS and AS slow instead of a 0.25 second stun
Shrapnel area of effect increased from 400 to 450

- Closet OP, yet buffed (I was using since 6.81b during the snowball push meta)

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Terrorblade
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Enabled in Captain's Mode
Sunder cast point improved from 0.5 to 0.35

- Closet OP, yet buffed (another hero I was using 6.81b)
- Sinister comeback-mechanics abuser, that received a swift and ending nerf maybe directly as a result of such

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Troll Warlord
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Ranged Whirling Axes cooldown from 20 to 20/19/18/17 seconds
Acquisition Range increased from 600 to 800 [?]

- Closet OP, yet buffed. (Another hero used since 6.81b, yet wasn't considered that strong)

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Vengeful Spirit
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Nether Swap range increased from 650/925/1200 to 700/950/1200

- Could be considered as another nerf to push, since easier to swap out the 6.81b meta-heroes with their big Ultimates ala razor/DP, or for Faceless Void.

ITEMS

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Black King Bar
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Avatar spell immunity duration and cooldown are now tied to the hero, instead of the item [?]
Minimum immunity duration increased from 4 to 5

- Pronounced affect on meta

Blink Dagger
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Gold cost increased from 2150 to 2250

- Fair affect on meta

Bottle
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Gold cost increased from 650 to 700

- Minor change, minor affect on meta

Crimson Guard
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New Item that is formed from Vanguard and Buckler

- Could be considered a nerf to Push, as it's fairly good against lots of little hits from creeps, and it's a natural buildup for Axe, a beneficiary of 6.82.

Ethereal Blade
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Ether Blast now has a projectile [?]
Ether Blast now only turns the caster ethereal if they target themself

- Nerf to Tinker 6.81b superstar, moderate effects on other heroes.

Eye of Skadi
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Frost Attack attack speed slow increased from 35 to 45

- Another influence on our current meta

Flying Courier
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Base movement speed increased from 350 to 430
Flying Courier now takes 50% extra damage from melee heroes
Flying Courier Speed Burst cooldown increased from 40 to 90
Flying Courier Speed Burst duration reduced from 20 to 4
Flying Courier Speed Burst speed increased from 522 to 650

- Nerf to Bottle Crowing
- Alleviated a bit by double rune spawn, but affected the mid rotations a lot as a side effect (good and bad); another contributor to our current situation

Mask of Madness
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Recipe cost reduced from 1000 to 900

- Here we are today =D

Mekansm
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Restore mana cost increased from 150 to 225

- Nerf to Deathball/Push
- Nerf to many agi-mek carriers

Refresher Orb
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Reset Cooldowns cooldown increased from 160 to 185

- Nerf to many of the 6.81b deathball/push heroes that liked this for their double ult Pushes (razor/ss/void/doom/dp/etc)

Town Portal Scroll
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Gold cost reduced from 135 to 100

- Nerf to Push/Deathball, cheaper TPs to defend against heavy pushes and deathballing

TOWERS/BUILDINGS

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Glyph of Fortification cooldown is now refreshed whenever you lose a Tier 1 tower
Tier 2 Tower's armor increased from 20 to 25
Tower bounty gold for destroying Tier 1/2/3/4 reduced from 264/312/358/405 to 160/200/240/280 (denied is 50%)

- Nerf to Push/Deathball strat
- Nerf to Push/Split Push heroes
- Buff to Late Game strats / well-scaling into the late game heroes; easier to survive early game that used to prevent strat from coming to fruition

TERRAIN

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Reworked terrain surrounding the Roshan area
Reworked terrain around the Dire bottom lane
Reworked terrain below the Top Radiant Tier 1 Tower
Reworked the area to the left of the bottom Dire Tier 2 Tower
Moved Dire bottom Tier 2 Tower back very slightly
Added an alternate path to the north of the bottom lane Side Shop
Added an alternate path to the right of the bottom Dire Tier 1 Tower
Added a new ward spot near the bottom Dire Tier 2 Tower
Added a new ward spot near the top Radiant Tier 2 Tower
Added a new ward spot between Roshan and the Dire bottom lane
Bottom Lane Dire creeps now arrive slightly closer to the Dire Tier 1 Tower
Top Lane Radiant creeps now arrive slightly farther from the Radiant Tier 1 Tower

- Many balance changes, and extra warding spots
- Possibly making late-game vision and map control too easy?

COMEBACK MECHANICS

So finally we get to the famous "Elephant in the Room" (ahem...hotbid kekek), TCM, the Comeback Mechanics.

So with all those changes of 6.82 mentioned before...

1) 6.81b standouts that everyone called for nerfs, nerfed ✔
2) Hero-Counters of said 6.81b Push Meta standouts buffed / Hero-Counters of Push Strategy buffed / Closet-OP heroes buffed ✔
3) The prevailing strategy of said 6.81b standouts, Push/Deathball, nerfed (T1 Fortification Reset, Tower Gold Reduced, T2 Armor Buff)✔

...we needed COMEBACK MECHANICS for what now?

6.82 contained a plethora of changes that looked to push the game toward a nice balance

Balance = Good, might it have turned out like this? Who knows?

On April 09 2015 17:21 Surprise.820 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

How about revert all hero kill + creep XP and Gold changes to 6.78 or whatever it was called and keep the tower changes.

Forget that, let's throw Rubberband/Comeback Mechanics right about here, should be okay?

So yes, Comeback Mechanics aren't only the reason for the high ground frustrations of current, but what were they even introduced for? Icefrog went down the list and knocked off nearly everything that he could nerf Push with, but then a Comeback Mechanic was to be thrown on top? What do ya guys think?

Disclaimer: My opinions/observations are as anecdotal and factual as OP's. I'm not to be quoted in confidence. I personally would love to keep all the Tower/Buillding Changes, Terrain Changes, and Hero Changes but without the xp/gold changes.

etofok

138 Posts

April 09 2015 12:58 GMT

#31

So yes, Comeback Mechanics aren't only the reason for the high ground frustrations of current, but what were they even introduced for? Are they even necessary given 6.82 looked to severely temper Push/Deathball meta and it's heroes along with it?

That's kind of the point: TCM along with other changes is a clear overkill. TCM has been nerfed several times to the state where it is "fine", however it led to this specific scenario that was hard to predict beforehand.

I believe the nerfs after TI4 were done because of TI itself, while TCM was added to make a huge gameplay change to freshen up the game. Personally I think TCM is good to have in a game, and I did suggest changes that would be okay for the game in general, not only for this specific patch. I didn't touch TCM at all as you might noticed.

Heroes are to be rebalanced and numbers are to tweak, however the global gameplay changes are always good.

deadmau

960 Posts

April 09 2015 13:03 GMT

#32

On April 09 2015 21:58 etofok wrote:

That's kind of the point: TCM along with other changes is a clear overkill. TCM has been nerfed several times to the state where it is "fine", however it led to this specific scenario that was hard to predict beforehand.

This is actually my point. If it's been nerfed several times to a point where it's deemed "acceptable," then why introduce it in the first place when the problem it was meant to fix was already fixed Push/Earlygame Deathball got nerfed in many ways.

Again I originally asked, was all the other changes in 6.82 not enough to fix 6.81b? Comeback Mechanics were a necessity on top to fix 6.81b? Yet the situation we haven now is the result of how the game is played accounting for the fact that Comeback Mechanics are present in the game.

And of course they got tuned it HAD to be, it was ridiculous at release. What it is now does seem acceptable compared to 6.82, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it should be even in the game as a mechanic at all. Thanks for highlighting my point, what did Comeback Mechanics even hope to solve or achieve given it's not even close to the same mechanic? Yet people can say it's "fine"?

Heroes are to be rebalanced and numbers are to tweak, however the global gameplay changes are always good.

There were many global gameplay changes, but introducing a mechanic that forces a rebalancing on top of your rebalance for no good reason, seems odd. I can see where you're coming from, only it seems you feel that the mechanic WAS fine to add because it is NOW tuned. The situation is now you must play accounting for Comeback Mechanic, just because it's there...not that this is a difficult thing to do, as my hero pool is wide enough to survive any meta; but i'm speaking from the point of view of the game as a whole, not a specific hero set.

Comeback Mechanic/Rubberbanding was not the solution we needed to solve 6.81b, we got the solutions that were needed in the Tower/Building changes & 6.81b Superstar Hero Nerfs; suddenly now Comeback Mechanic is an acceptable mechanic because it's been "tuned"? My english isn't my 1st language, I hope I'm piecing together some decent thoughts. I don't think OP denys the influence of Comeback Mechanics or anything, but I think the effort to rationalize it's presence/existence in the game is unnecessary given its introduction was also not needed.

meegrean

Thailand7699 Posts

April 09 2015 13:27 GMT

#33

I think you meant "Loser's Advantage"...

jozsasz

1 Post

April 09 2015 14:13 GMT

#34

If we double the price of Buy Back for the player every time he used it we could get rid of the buyback timer (obsolete) and the farming advantage goes back to the team w the map control.

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 09 2015 14:18 GMT

#35

The biggest issue with the current come back mechanic from where I see it, is its relation to buy back when pushing high ground. Because the team that is behind is most likely the one defending, they are have huge incentive to use their buy backs to get kills and make risky plays. In some cases, they can earn back the entire buy back amount and more, plus gain much needed levels.

If the comeback mechanic were adjusted to not provide its benefits to heroes under the “buy back” state, it would go a long way to making pushing high ground easier. Even if you killed someone and they bought back, they would still be robbed of the buyback gold and XP that they need to get back into the game.

That and some other adjustments(mostly around XP) to the system could make it much more reasonable and allow the team that is ahead to take advantage of the lead they have obtained.

And fuck troll and sniper.

dfs

Russian Federation4050 Posts

April 09 2015 15:09 GMT

#36

Ho-Ho Ha-Ha.
It's always Ho-Ho Ha-Ha.
4/5

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

April 09 2015 15:18 GMT

#37

wont getting rid of buyback timer just bring us back to the old times of chinese teams not going highground until they have 5 buybacks 10 cheese and aegis?

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 09 2015 15:21 GMT

#38

On April 10 2015 00:18 ahswtini wrote:
wont getting rid of buyback timer just bring us back to the old times of chinese teams not going highground until they have 5 buybacks 10 cheese and aegis?

I would think so. Also you could end up with these nightmare games with 6 slotted heroes and people saving for buy back after buy back.

I would rather just limit the gold intake of players that buy back to a smaller amount to make it more risky and something that you do to save an objective. Rather than a way to boost your economy. Your first life should be the most valuable.

Comeh

United States18918 Posts

April 09 2015 15:30 GMT

#39

LD should consider recruiting you as a opinion article writer for LD or something.

in reference to buyback - best soultion I have come up with is to limit teams to a hard number of buybacks (10 is the one I've been bouncing around) - this prevents mega super lategame situations and punishes highground defending teams a bit more.

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

April 09 2015 15:36 GMT

#40

what do people think about hon's buyback limit of 2 per champion??

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