• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:59
CET 17:59
KST 01:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview1RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
[BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Let's talk about Metropolis Foreign Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Black Ops 6 Camo Service – Fast, Safe & Reliable Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 899 users

Attack - Defense - Economy correlations.

Blogs > etofok
Post a Reply
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-26 13:09:24
January 11 2015 21:16 GMT
#1
Attack - Defense - Economy correlations: a projection from other games.

Small edit: I used highly popular games to illustrate the system that any game has, including dota. Being aware is the first step of any improvement.
It's like when a human first time in his life sees an apple, and then another apple - he acquires the ability to find apples in a basket of other fruits by himself.


There are 3 fundamental pillars that hold up games that have any sort of tactics or strategies:

Attack - Defense - Economy


[image loading]


This is the basic triangle, and it is quite similar to the famous Rock-Paper-Scissors one. However there are differences:

1) The elements have specified parameters while Paper beats Rock 10 out of 10 without any drawbacks.
2) Decisions players make affect their long-term game, meaning the very ability to strategize emerges.
3) Each move (decision) has a different value each turn / second you play because of the aforementioned points.

For example, you can accumulate a certain amount of Rocks and when you have too much of it, you’ll beat the Paper. If you are too ahead you can do pretty much whatever, because you've already snowballed out of control.


+ Show Spoiler +
Worth mentioning, there are differences between the words “Strategy” and “Tactic”. In short:

“Strategy” is a long-term behavior that consists of following some specific and circumspect guidelines.
“Tactics” are the local moves to perform on the path of following those guidelines.

Same thing - different scale.


At some point they might blend into each other and become too blurry to surely distinguish which is which, however in general these are correct definitions.




Both Attack (offense) and Defense are straightforward: you are either preparing / performing an attack or you're preparing for an incoming attack to deflect it with little to no losses.

But the Economy part is what most players overlook.


Any action you perform to get stronger without any actual confrontation with your opponents counts as an Economy move.


In traditional strategy games, such as Starcraft and Warcraft you invest your time and money - resources you possess - into:

1) Acquiring a higher technology level or
2) Making further expansions and production facilities or
3) Researching essential upgrades for your army or
4) ...



Almost every other game has this crucial gameplay element at the very least at its “Tactics” or even smaller scales.

In Dark Souls, for instance, in a boss fight you can drink a healing potion to heal up, you can use a specific item to imbue your weapon with an element that plain out increases the damage you do.

You are not attacking, neither you are defending, however in that moment you’re virtually investing your precious seconds into your health bar or into your further damage output. This move requires from a player an okay timing otherwise you'll get a spear right into your head in the process.

The most vivid example of this I can give you: http://gifyoutube.com/gif/m2qYkx

1) My Defense responses against their Attack moves
2) My Economy move (weapon enhancement) vs Their Economy move & Idling
3) One successful Attack move when the opportunity presented itself.
Needless to say, because of the correct Eco move I was able to bring both of them down in time to close the fight.


If you can’t wrap your head around the idea “how the hell healing is making me stronger” - think about the health bar as insufficient from the start. If during a fight you had to use more than the initial 99 health points in order to stay alive, let's say something like 567 HP - because you healed up so much - this is clearly the definition of making your character stronger: in that fight you essentially had 568 health points, but you paid a cost of playing several Eco moves.



In Dota / League you can safely consider Eco moves as farming and getting experience for your heroes, because the hero is your main and the only valuable asset: it is simultaneously a technological tree, your main production facility to generate gold and your entire army as one entity.
[image loading]

At any point in a game players have to choose one of these 3 vectors to go for.

A friendly reminder that each move (A / D / E) has a different value depending on a situation: overextending as a carry without buyback deep into late game nullifies all the previous choices and instantaneously loses you a game.


Now check this out: ADEgame.

The game will show you this exact topic in action:
1) Importance of every move and why you should choose carefully
2) How pitiful players look when they do completely random stuff without any plan in their head
3) How can anyone create a new metagame just by slightly adjusting the rules
4) Some specific scenarios to play against - when your opponent has a plan
5) Other helpful explanations

Just open up the link and once you’re in as your starting point click the Guide button.


Cheers.

etofok
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3260 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-19 00:50:59
January 19 2015 00:45 GMT
#2
Interesting writeup.

While i can see the defense point, it's not the way most strategy games work according to my experience. To be exact I dont know a single strategy game where investing into defense more than into offense is a viable strategy except maybe for the stronghold series.
In most strategy games I know it's common to use offensive forces for defense because that allows to go out on the map and increase your economy while forcing the enemy to stay on his, generating advantage over time. In some games you mix defensive with offensive forces to be safe against early rushes, but most settle for a meta that goes offense->map control/eco->offense. That can be applied to Dota as well.

I think this is a deliberate decision by the developers. They could increase the starting economy or introduce efficient ways to increase your eco inside of your base (it's possible to build most of strongholds eco in the base), but nobody likes to play against turtle and even less people like to watch it.

In Dota I dont think there exists a concept of putting resources into your strategic defense aside from the draft where you can draft something like kotl razor sk. But even there pure 4 protect 1 is overall pretty much dead because it generates to much economic disadvantage.
low gravity, yes-yes!
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-19 18:36:09
January 19 2015 16:48 GMT
#3
While i can see the defense point, it's not the way most strategy games work according to my experience. To be exact I dont know a single strategy game where investing into defense more than into offense is a viable strategy except maybe for the stronghold series.

In Dota I dont think there exists a concept of putting resources into your strategic defense aside from the draft where you can draft something like kotl razor sk. But even there pure 4 protect 1 is overall pretty much dead because it generates to much economic disadvantage.


It's not about "defense" as a strategy, it is about using this option when it's needed, simply because this option is always the least desirable one - it gives you nothing.

It's only a response as a preparation, meaning you sacrifice your time/energy/progression to avoid losing more time/energy/progression. An undeflected attack might be crippling. If a team/player can't, or don't understand how use Defense at the right time - they are in clear disadvantage, i.e. pointless feeding.

For example when you see 0 people on the map you probably should gather up or go back - to play safer. Otherwise your AM dies to a gank, for instance.

Stepping aside from Dota, if in a strategy game you can do only Defense / Economy without any Attack - the definition of horrible design, see the end of Sc2 WoL TvZ for the reference. This is an intricate problem - balancing the numbers in such correlations, but nonetheless a solvable problem that's for sure.

In most strategy games I know it's common to use offensive forces for defense because that allows to go out on the map and increase your economy while forcing the enemy to stay on his, generating advantage over time.


Yes, you basically apply pressure to acquire some map control while powering up at home. But these moves are often predictable and already "metagame-ish". In a sense, both players are content with this situation most of the time because, in Sc2 for instance, of asymmetrical balance: Stalker+zealot pushes out marines back home, Marauder+CC pushes back Stalkers back, Hellions can control the map against Zerg for some time etc.

Even in dota if you see SD/Lesh/Sky you have no other option but to expect mid smoke ganks and alike.
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko488
RotterdaM 91
SKillous 81
Vindicta 37
TKL 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23721
Calm 3456
Sea 2754
Mini 1140
EffOrt 837
Jaedong 783
Larva 764
Soma 581
Light 496
Snow 317
[ Show more ]
hero 310
actioN 227
Sharp 222
BeSt 182
Rush 141
Dewaltoss 115
sorry 50
Mind 32
scan(afreeca) 27
Terrorterran 26
Bale 26
Mong 26
soO 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
HiyA 13
ggaemo 13
Dota 2
Gorgc7567
qojqva2489
syndereN387
Counter-Strike
fl0m5791
zeus481
Other Games
FrodaN3731
Beastyqt647
hiko586
Liquid`VortiX154
KnowMe138
ArmadaUGS91
QueenE78
Trikslyr65
NeuroSwarm25
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV51
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 66
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1190
Other Games
• Scarra1344
• WagamamaTV185
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
2m
RotterdaM91
RSL Revival
11h 32m
StarCraft2.fi
17h 2m
IPSL
1d
Sziky vs JDConan
OSC
1d
Solar vs Percival
Gerald vs Nicoract
Creator vs ByuN
RSL Revival
1d 11h
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
1d 20h
herO vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs herO
SHIN vs Clem
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs ShoWTimE
IPSL
2 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.