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[Girl Blog] Does It Matter That She Likes You?

Blogs > CosmicSpiral
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CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
November 30 2014 23:29 GMT
#1
One of the main barriers to a strong relationship is confusing emotional reciprocation for character appreciation. As social animals, we are naturally disposed to internalizing and mirroring the outward expressions of others’ emotions. The underlying causes behind this mechanism are unclear (as are all things regarding evolutionary psychology), but it’s indispensable for navigating the social world. It’s how we recognize when others don’t value us, the potential benefits of joining or remaining in a group, and strengthen existing ties with the people we care about.

Emotional reciprocation is a decent way of elevating attraction but a terrible foundation for a relationship. That type of rapport is by definition dependent on the other person, propped up by the external reinforcement of the environment. It is a fragile feedback loop: you feel as great as the other person feels and vice versa. As soon as something bad comes along to disrupt the party, it disrupts the escalation and leaves both parties cold. Just as emotional reciprocation primes a couple for ever-increasing affectation, its interruption usually leads to a downwards spiral. This loss is expressed with phrases such as “I don’t care for you as much as I used to”, “The feeling is gone”, and other such nonsense, as if love was a novelty labeled with an expiration date. And I want to emphasize that it is nonsense. Emotional reciprocation is necessary for most relationships to flourish, but it fails as long as it is the measuring stick for the relationship.*

Here are two useful case studies for studying this phenomenon from a distance.

Nothing super exciting just a problem, who do i ask out. Girl a or b. Not sure on the best way to explain it so excuse it being all over the place. Im 19 girl a is 18 and b is 17. A is 5ft 8 brunette b is 6ft blonde both are skinny but not extremely. I have known them both for almost 10 years. Both have similar personalities except girl b is quite shy and jumpy but becomes confident when she knows people or is with me. If i asked them out i would say 85% time yes with a and 99% with b. They both are equally attractive mostly since b has braces and gets the odd stress spot but would say in a year or two would be equal or better looking. Main problems are that they are sisters and b would probably be upset if i went out with a. So as i see it i have four options ask out a. Ask out b. Find someone else. Wait and see what changes. Excuse poor layout sent from old battered phone.


He provides as much relevant information as he possibly can. Sadly, none of this information is useful for leading to a final decision. We don’t know how it relates to his desires and his values. Does he prefer brunettes over blondes? Maybe. Does height factor as a preference? I dunno. Of course, most 19-year-olds are more capable of hooking up with a girl than articulating why they choose her over someone else. So it comes as no surprise that when confronted with a choice paradox, he turns to other people to help him. Multiple perspectives could help him come to a proper result, but not without informing his audience who he is as a person.

Now assume one girl had showed undeniable interest in him. He’s already mentioned that both are highly likely to saying yes; both roughly fall into his personal criteria of attractiveness; their personalities are similar except for one thing, which is irrelevant when it comes to interacting with him. If he liked A more, his post would be focused on how to maintain the friendship with B when she found out. If he liked B more, he’d been talking about something not previously mentioned. Then the logistics of setting up the date, and making sure all involved parties are happy, would come into play.

This is a negative example of how emotional reciprocation affects judgment. His fundamental problem is that since neither girl has ‘chosen’ him (i.e. given him enough emotional leverage to fall into one option), he cannot make the choice himself. There’s no gap in attraction strong enough to contribute to his thought process. If he had a stronger sense of self, then he would have already selected one girl and be more concerned with the potential fallout. Instead, he is frozen and convinced that analyzing the secondary facts is the solution out of his rut he’s in. In short, he should be asking himself “Why are I asking strangers whom I should like more?”

I'm currently single, my last relationship ended a few weeks ago. (We were together for about 2.5 years, but had to split, because she had to move to a town hundreds of kilometers away from my place. We tried to make things work, but seeing each other only once a month was terrible, so we decided to go separate ways.)

An old (female) friend of mine moved back into my town. Since she's back, there's something strange happening when we meet each other. We have always been getting along quite well, but suddenly there seems to be more. She's showing interest. (looks, touches) Tomorrow, we're going to spend the evening together. And I'm kind of nervous, because I've got the feeling that we might...collide. I guess, I'll just let things happen, but I've never had sex with a woman I knew for such a long time.


There’s nothing wrong with what he’s done. His breakup is sensible. His feelings for his old friend are understandable. There is no malice or selfishness in his intentions. Yet there’s a problem in his narrative, small but insidious, that threatens to ruin whatever chemistry they might have. Notice the line of reasoning in the last part of the paragraph. First, he realizes that she is doing things that indicate sexual interest. Then, he realizes he is similarly attracted to her. Afterwards, he wonders whether their next encounter might lead to sex. Finally, he gets worried about what might happen after this hypothetical romp. This kind of thing happens all the time. When people haven’t seen each other for a long time, their sense of the relationship quickly change upon meeting again. A lot of passion can flare up when the comfort of familiarity is mixed with the newness of the actual difference.

The question I would ask him in person is, why did her perceived attraction to you generate that response? Why did your thoughts about sex, and all it could entail, not exist before you noticed the touching and the looking? Was she not physically attractive enough? Did she not pass your standards in terms of humor, intelligence, imagination, etc.?

From his perspective, it seems like something changed within their friendship. From my perspective the answer seems simpler (and could be wrong as a result). She is communicating interest of some sort but may not feel compelled to admit it in person. What’s important is his interpretation of it: she is doing x, y, and z, therefore she must be attracted to me. But why is he returning the affection of an old friend in the first place, particularly if nothing before that point inspired lust? Because he is unconsciously mirroring her interest in him, which set off a feedback loop.** So he rationalizes his newfound attraction (which was a response to her apparent attraction, which may or may not have been sexual in nature at that point) by positing that a fundamental shift has occurred in their relationship. Once only old friends, they are inexplicably becoming closer to lovers than pals. Here is self-fulfilling prophecy at its best.

Is that a bad thing? No. As long as they remain in the rudimentary stages of connection, it is more than sufficient to fuel their relationship. If it ever goes past that part though, it will become increasingly difficult to justify the existence of the relationship. As it goes through the typical highs and lows, both parties may mistake the lack of passion as a sign that “things aren’t working out”. What it really indicates is that relationship was built on a self-defeating foundation.

* It’s closely intertwined with the three primary motivations behind getting romantically involved with someone: desiring the experience of desire, desiring the experience of a relationship, and desiring a person. That is an interrelated subject that tackles a different set of concerns, mainly the distinction between inspiring someone to be their 'best self' and unconsciously substituting a personal projection in place of the other.

** This is the primary reason I brush off indicators of interests (an old term originating in the pickup community) and tell people to ignore IOIs in general. They are useful to realize when a girl is attracted to you, but that is the extent of their usefulness.

People too aware of IOIs begin to rely on them to determine when it’s safe or appropriate to show interest in a girl. Never mind the fact that initial negative reactions do not correlate with actual interest (this arises from the erroneous assumption that men and women have the same internal relationship with their emotions), it is not healthy to base your emotions on the state of the environment. Additionally, they depend on emotional reciprocation to dictate their romantic life instead of personal values and boundaries. Such individuals go through predictable patterns of intense attraction followed by breakups, subsequently blaming their exes for failing to maintain expectations. Sorry but all your failures share one thing in common: you.


***
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
November 30 2014 23:44 GMT
#2
Interesting and well-written. Good timing, too, as I'm entering the dating pool once again after a small hiatus.

Lesson is, set your standards of what you want and expect in a companion, and don't just pursue those who show interest in you?
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
December 01 2014 04:41 GMT
#3
On December 01 2014 08:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:
This loss is expressed with phrases such as “I don’t care for you as much as I used to”, “The feeling is gone”, and other such nonsense, as if love was a novelty labeled with an expiration date. And I want to emphasize that it is nonsense.

The idea that people change and couples can grow apart is nonsense yet love has no expiration date? It's the latter that sounds like romantic nonsense to me.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
December 01 2014 04:41 GMT
#4
How do the vast majority of people stay married? Do they just accept each other long enough that when the passion dies down they begrudingly stay together?

Eventually the reciprocation of affections has to stop growing.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-01 05:28:45
December 01 2014 05:20 GMT
#5
On December 01 2014 08:44 Dalguno wrote:
Interesting and well-written. Good timing, too, as I'm entering the dating pool once again after a small hiatus.

Lesson is, set your standards of what you want and expect in a companion, and don't just pursue those who show interest in you?


Yes and no.

Setting standards works if you can understand why they exist. It is very easy to set standards that are hidden roadblocks to resist change. A person unconsciously afraid of commitment can say "I don't want long-term courtships because my life is too hectic" and believe he is being mature and reasonable. And in a sense he is, because he would be the wrong choice for any woman who wants to settle down. But is he being responsible or making excuses? Perhaps a mixture of both.

On December 01 2014 13:41 Scarecrow wrote:
The idea that people change and couples can grow apart is nonsense yet love has no expiration date? It's the latter that sounds like romantic nonsense to me.


The idea that "people change" and "couples grow apart" come from the naive notion that love is a feeling, and when it extinguishes there is nothing left. Such a position is parasitic on emotional reciprocation and it's telling that all similar bland explanations naturally occur in the passive voice. When "people change" there is no responsibility and no impetus to change things for the better. Such catchphrases are used in place of actual reasons.

Love that has "no expiration date" is action based on a person's character and integrity. In terms of romantic relationships, it would be a combination of agape and eros.

On December 01 2014 13:41 obesechicken13 wrote:
How do the vast majority of people stay married? Do they just accept each other long enough that when the passion dies down they begrudingly stay together?

Eventually the reciprocation of affections has to stop growing.


I wouldn't say "begrudgingly". Don't underestimate the power of comfort through familiarity, social conformity, and mutual understanding. However, the "vast majority" do not stay married although divorce rates do tend to drop as people get older. Divorce rates in the U.S. usually hover around ~40-50% for first marriages and increase for each successive marriage. There are many more factors contributing to that statistics than what is mentioned in the OP.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-12-01 07:05:02
December 01 2014 06:19 GMT
#6
On December 01 2014 14:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2014 13:41 Scarecrow wrote:
The idea that people change and couples can grow apart is nonsense yet love has no expiration date? It's the latter that sounds like romantic nonsense to me.


The idea that "people change" and "couples grow apart" come from the naive notion that love is a feeling, and when it extinguishes there is nothing left. Such a position is parasitic on emotional reciprocation and it's telling that all similar bland explanations naturally occur in the passive voice. When "people change" there is no responsibility and no impetus to change things for the better. Such catchphrases are used in place of actual reasons.

Love that has "no expiration date" is action based on a person's character and integrity. In terms of romantic relationships, it would be a combination of agape and eros.

You talk in absolutes like this isn't highly subjective. Relationships/love are not a science and there's no guaranteed formula to romantic longevity. Why is it naive to think love is a feeling? You don't have a monopoly on the definition and people can change in character and integrity over the course of their lives. My values have certainly changed drastically over the last decade.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
DarkNetHunter
Profile Joined October 2012
1224 Posts
December 01 2014 13:19 GMT
#7
A very interesting piece, I'm looking forward to rereading it and considering it in more detail
Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
December 01 2014 17:48 GMT
#8
On December 01 2014 15:19 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2014 14:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On December 01 2014 13:41 Scarecrow wrote:
The idea that people change and couples can grow apart is nonsense yet love has no expiration date? It's the latter that sounds like romantic nonsense to me.


The idea that "people change" and "couples grow apart" come from the naive notion that love is a feeling, and when it extinguishes there is nothing left. Such a position is parasitic on emotional reciprocation and it's telling that all similar bland explanations naturally occur in the passive voice. When "people change" there is no responsibility and no impetus to change things for the better. Such catchphrases are used in place of actual reasons.

Love that has "no expiration date" is action based on a person's character and integrity. In terms of romantic relationships, it would be a combination of agape and eros.

You talk in absolutes like this isn't highly subjective. Relationships/love are not a science and there's no guaranteed formula to romantic longevity. Why is it naive to think love is a feeling? You don't have a monopoly on the definition and people can change in character and integrity over the course of their lives. My values have certainly changed drastically over the last decade.


I think the point cosmic is making is the following:

If the couple believes in "love" in the sense that it is always the same from day one to day last then that is wrong. Couples grow apart and change, sure, but do they grow apart because they change so much that they become vastly different people, or because that original feeling of love changed and they want the old feeling back.

I think thats the problem. At least for me and people my age (mid 20s) I have seen a LOT of people say "we grew apart" and "its different" then break up after a couple years.

In these situations i see a lot of people say "it wasn't the same", "he/she didn't see me the same way" "this other person i became interested in showed me i wasn't interested in my original person".

The one thing all of this has in common is what Cosmic is talking about - the reciprocation of feelings changes. These people go into relationships thinking they won't change, or shouldn't change, or will change minimally - this effectively puts an expiration date on the love. The moment they stop showing the same kinds of affection in the same way it is basically over.

I am saying this from the perspective of someone who has been in the same relationship for 7 years now.

Its different. Its real different. When we started dating my gf was 17, I was 18 going on 19, and now she is 24 and im 25 going on 26.

We have most definitely changed as not only people but as a couple. Our core values remain the same, our commitment hasn't changed. The things that made me choose her and fall in love with her are the same. She's intelligent, she's supportive, and we both want a family.

I know it might sound stupid to boil it down this way but those 3 things are so extremely important to the both of us that even though some of the initial puppy love and "excitement" is gone, we are still together. I will do anything for her as she will for me. We've been through too many things together to even think about splitting.

When I talk to people in long term relationships they don't talk about passion, or how its different in a bad way. They talk about the changes positively. Companionship, support, growth, and most importantly changing together is huge.

So I think cosmic is right to a certain extent.

If you focus on the whole "hey they show interest which means it must be real - lets do it and see where it goes" well if the relationship doesn't evolve past mutual interest in one another being the main thing, then its not really gonna last forever. Mutual interest changes, and people change, but when they don't look past eachother as objects of interest, then thats where it will end one day. No way it can't because the relationship will change and neither person is ready for it.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 01 2014 23:00 GMT
#9
Love is not a feeling.

Love is a disposition. It is a decision. It is action.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
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