I don't mean to presume that I'm actually someone a lot of people care about on these forums (except for when my predictions go horribly wrong (RIP CJ) and Roro wins), but I wanted to let anyone who cares know
I don't like balance whine. I don't, in fact, like whining in general. Tongue-in-cheek or obviously sarcastic whining I can put up with because it can definitely be fun if pulled off correctly, but straight-up bashing with little to no factual basis and terrible arguments to boot bother me greatly. I've been upset about the copious amounts of whining on the forums for a few months - if it's not oracles then it's the warp gates, and if it's not the warp gates then it's the map. Protoss players aren't skilled, they just play the best race. I find the bias incredibly annoying and off-putting, and I don't really feel like there's an end to it.
TL is probably the web site with the best moderation I've ever been to, but there's still a horrible amount of borderline, not-quite-bannable but still terrible posts that slip through, ranging from personal attacks to player bashing when i, and they make the forums, very frequently, an unpleasant place to spend time in. The same goes for the childlike insecurities people have about Starcraft as an esport - is it big enough, is it dying, was it ever good, is it shit, should I watch it, why is Valve better, et cetera. Whine about tournaments, whine about organisers, whine about the lack of tournaments, whine about there being too many in too short a time span - I don't really feel like people are really happy to be Starcraft II fans at the moment and that people are using TL (more than ever) as a place to vent those frustrations. Venting frustration is good in moderation and constructively criticising things that can be improved upon also (see MLG's Game-on invitational for a great example), but when it devolves to the point where so many people seem to post only to let others know that they don't like Starcraft, I don't know - I don't feel like that's any way to spend one's time, and that it detracts greatly from the experience of other users. Myself included.
I like to think that patient arguing and hard facts would be enough to convince at least a few people that any number of illusions Starcraft fans seem to entertain these days - about prize money, about viewership, about numbers in general - are incorrect, but as Wax likes to point out it usually ends up with me arguing until my face turns red to no avail. It's an exercise in futility and one I'm not interested in continuing with.
So for now, I'm going to stop posting on the site. I'll still write articles because Starcraft is still my passion, but I don't think I will bother making any comments of my own from now on. When I do enjoy it (live report threads are often a great place to be, <3) it's an awesome experience, but I'm really tired of the rampant toxicity and until it settles down - be it through Maru pulling a miracle and winning dual tournaments or some shit, or people finally giving up the "help I'm a Terran everyone hates me"-bullshit, I won't bother.
I am with you Z-man. I'm going to avoid the general discussion threads for a while and stick to the lands where people really watch SC2. The live report thread for WCS challenger league was a blast last night and after that, there is no reason to go back to general discussion.
In the end, the sad fact is that R/Starcraft has become a more positive, inviting place than SC2 general discussion. There is a 153 comment thread celebrating Desrow making it to premier league. The top thread TL is people whining about balance.
You take it to heart a bit too much. There is whining everywhere, has been forever. Work, life, games, balance... You just learn to ignore it at a certain point. Just relax, the urge to post or comment might come back (or not) after some time :-) Patient arguing or hard facts just DON'T work on dumb people, they just do not read and check what's written, just hover them and answer shit. I've burned out doing it for CS1.6/TFT for ~7years in the past.
So you learn to take it easy little by little. You're one of the most pleasant guy I've been reading these past few months on diverse threads, so I'd be happy if you come back after some time ;-) Spend nice holidays far from the rush xD
Don't know why you're putting such a large group of users on TL on a pedestal here; you're never going to be satisfied with most people's erratic posting habits when they want to be negative.
Just grow some thicker skin and don't be so offended by them.
Hm, this comes as a bit of a surprise, from your posts (and postcount) I'd have thought you had thicker skin. I can relate to what you are saying though, I actually switched from protoss to terran in like 2012 because everybody around me (except toss players obv) made fun of protoss and cried non-stop about it (I actually enjoy playing terran more, but it was def one of the reasons.)
There will ALWAYS be negative people posting so its quite possible youll never post again
Your post summarizes my thoughts about 2 years ago. I eventually just laughed and stepped back and realized the whole ordeal is petty.
Come hang out in the Other Games section! TL still a great enough place for unrelated, friendlier discussion. That's why I'm still here lol.
Edit: I think people are misconstruing this post. I didn't find it to be about "thicker skin" at all. It's not necessarily personal attacks. It's just boring and pointless to see literally 200 threads a day/week/whatever about the same mundane issues pertaining to balance, whining, etc. It's not about losing arguments with faceless idiots, it's just not fun. Negativity is poisonous, and it reigns supreme in SC2. Hence, no need to partake.
On January 23 2014 04:20 Gamegene wrote: Don't know why you're putting such a large group of users on TL on a pedestal here; you're never going to be satisfied with most people's erratic posting habits when they want to be negative.
Just grow some thicker skin and don't be so offended by them.
It's not being offended, it's that interactions with the SC2 general community is sort of fruitless. Most threads that are about good or positive things get hopelessly derailed. At some point it stopped being worth it.
On January 23 2014 04:22 Duka08 wrote: Your post summarizes my thoughts about 2 years ago. I eventually just laughed and stepped back and realized the whole ordeal is petty.
Come hang out in the Other Games section! TL still a great enough place for unrelated, friendlier discussion. That's why I'm still here lol.
Edit: I think people are misconstruing this post. I didn't find it to be about "thicker skin" at all. It's not necessarily personal attacks. It's just boring and pointless to see literally 200 threads a day/week/whatever about the same mundane issues pertaining to balance, whining, etc. It's not about losing arguments with faceless idiots, it's just not fun. Hence, no need to partake.
You don't have to argue with people to post; and you certainly don't have to argue with people to find the posts that make TL worth reading.
I just came back from browsing the SC2 section a bit.
Wow.
The SC2 community complains more about its own game than any other I have ever seen. I honestly wonder why they play it. It's not like most of them are making money off of it. How can these people, who dislike it so much, play it for fun?
On January 23 2014 04:22 Duka08 wrote: Your post summarizes my thoughts about 2 years ago. I eventually just laughed and stepped back and realized the whole ordeal is petty.
Come hang out in the Other Games section! TL still a great enough place for unrelated, friendlier discussion. That's why I'm still here lol.
Edit: I think people are misconstruing this post. I didn't find it to be about "thicker skin" at all. It's not necessarily personal attacks. It's just boring and pointless to see literally 200 threads a day/week/whatever about the same mundane issues pertaining to balance, whining, etc. It's not about losing arguments with faceless idiots, it's just not fun. Hence, no need to partake.
You don't have to argue with people to post; and you certainly don't have to argue with people to find the posts that make TL worth reading.
But of they shit up and dominate most threads, it doesn't matter if you argue with them or not.
On January 23 2014 04:22 Duka08 wrote: Your post summarizes my thoughts about 2 years ago. I eventually just laughed and stepped back and realized the whole ordeal is petty.
Come hang out in the Other Games section! TL still a great enough place for unrelated, friendlier discussion. That's why I'm still here lol.
Edit: I think people are misconstruing this post. I didn't find it to be about "thicker skin" at all. It's not necessarily personal attacks. It's just boring and pointless to see literally 200 threads a day/week/whatever about the same mundane issues pertaining to balance, whining, etc. It's not about losing arguments with faceless idiots, it's just not fun. Hence, no need to partake.
You don't have to argue with people to post; and you certainly don't have to argue with people to find the posts that make TL worth reading.
But of they shit up and dominate most threads, it doesn't matter if you argue with them or not.
Just gotta learn to ignore and keep scrolling down. There are enough worthy posts out there even in SC2 general that you can read if you're willing to just be detached from the obvious shitposting.
Zealously has some good points, but I disagree that TL is any worse than anywhere else in regards to what is or isn't decent.
There are a lot of problems with the types of posters in most game forums, and I think that as a whole nobody really wants to be as relentless in moderation as they need to in order to fix it.
If it were up to me I'd ban every single pointless post that was negative without anything constructive. Every "Broodwar is better" post would be banned in the sc2 section. Every "Lol who still plays BW" post would be banned in the BW section. Every balance whine post that was made outside of the designated balance threads would be banned, and the designated balance threads would be heavily moderated to constructive posts.
The problem is that extremely few people, deep down, actually want that. Hell I'm not even certain I want that. They want a place that they can say what they want within reason and they want to be able to argue. They want to be able to troll, they want to be able to hide their trolling to the best of their ability, hoping it gets by the filters of the mods.
In general, this is a problem with the internet as a whole and something that cannot ever be fixed entirely.
You'll be back, Zealously, and you'll see how retarded all this shit is all over again. It's an endless cycle that can really suck sometimes. I'd be a liar if I said the whole of it was bad, or that I didn't enjoy the majority, but it's fuckin frustrating at times and you just need a break every now and then.
I somewhat agree, I think it would improve the quality of posting if mods were just a bit harsher. Permaban for anyone who posts any of that reddit meme garbage that ruins LR threads.
On January 23 2014 04:35 Noobity wrote: Zealously has some good points, but I disagree that TL is any worse than anywhere else in regards to what is or isn't decent.
There are a lot of problems with the types of posters in most game forums, and I think that as a whole nobody really wants to be as relentless in moderation as they need to in order to fix it.
If it were up to me I'd ban every single pointless post that was negative without anything constructive. Every "Broodwar is better" post would be banned in the sc2 section. Every "Lol who still plays BW" post would be banned in the BW section. Every balance whine post that was made outside of the designated balance threads would be banned, and the designated balance threads would be heavily moderated to constructive posts.
The problem is that extremely few people, deep down, actually want that. Hell I'm not even certain I want that. They want a place that they can say what they want within reason and they want to be able to argue. They want to be able to troll, they want to be able to hide their trolling to the best of their ability, hoping it gets by the filters of the mods.
In general, this is a problem with the internet as a whole and something that cannot ever be fixed entirely.
You'll be back, Zealously, and you'll see how retarded all this shit is all over again. It's an endless cycle that can really suck sometimes. I'd be a liar if I said the whole of it was bad, or that I didn't enjoy the majority, but it's fuckin frustrating at times and you just need a break every now and then.
At least on reddit people can down vote the assholes who post shit like that. But on TL, we have to hope the mods agree that the post is shit. It has gotten better, but the top two threads on TL general are about a mod and some amazing balance whine.
This really does suck. You are probably one of the best posters on the site for SC2, and it was always pretty cool to see one of these shit posters you are talking about put in his place in an LR thread by you.
I'm glad you're going to keep writing and I'm glad you still like Starcraft and I hope you'll be back. Sorry this is bothering you so much on what should be a happy day, as Life returns to Code S.
I completely agree with the OP. The SC2 general section turned to complete shit with all the balance whining, SC2 doomsdayers who want SC2 to die, and Terrans thinking the entire world is against them. I never browse that section because it's all now complete pessimism on the future of SC2 and tons of balance whining that goes unmoderated. If any mods read this, I wish that you guys here would step up and become harsher and give longer bans for the balance whiners, especially the ones who are consistent with their shitty posting.
So yeah, I'm sure Zealousy isn't the only person who will stop reading the SC2 general section. I stopped reading it a long time ago. It's sad that Reddit has become a more positive place than TL.
I think you're a great writer Zealousy, glad to see you will still be doing articles.
I'm of the mindset you can't win an argument on the internet, ever. I counter this hopeless feeling with the idea that things could always be worse, no matter what, things could be worse.
I feel what you feel, Zealously! I think an added point is that the forums are so incredibly easy to influence. A caster or article on TL can spawn stuff that keeps getting regurgitated over and over and over. Like, say, Kespa being so absolutely awesome at everything. And when you've heard people repeat that for the hundredth time without any kind of reflection it's pretty annoying.
I usually just close the browser when I get too annoyed. But yeah, gl hf with everything and throw me a PM if you wanna chat without the bullshit
On January 23 2014 04:09 Zealously wrote: TL is probably the web site with the best moderation I've ever been to, - be it through Maru pulling a miracle and winning dual tournaments or some shit, or people finally giving up the "help I'm a Terran everyone hates me"-bullshit, I won't bother.
So bye.
your stuff is interesting to read.
its clear to me the top TL MODs are all Terrans. How do you think Avilo became a featured streamer?
On January 23 2014 04:09 Zealously wrote: TL is probably the web site with the best moderation I've ever been to, - be it through Maru pulling a miracle and winning dual tournaments or some shit, or people finally giving up the "help I'm a Terran everyone hates me"-bullshit, I won't bother.
So bye.
your stuff is interesting to read.
its clear to me the top TL MODs are all Terrans. How do you think Avilo became a featured streamer?
Well Shellshock is random and a robot and KadaverBB is a Yoshi so that's two down that aren't terran.
On January 23 2014 04:09 Zealously wrote: TL is probably the web site with the best moderation I've ever been to, - be it through Maru pulling a miracle and winning dual tournaments or some shit, or people finally giving up the "help I'm a Terran everyone hates me"-bullshit, I won't bother.
So bye.
your stuff is interesting to read.
its clear to me the top TL MODs are all Terrans. How do you think Avilo became a featured streamer?
Well Shellshock is random and a robot and KadaverBB is a Yoshi so that's two down that aren't terran.
its a joke guy.
SC2 is in slow decline. but, its still the #1 or #2 platform for any RTS fan to test their skills and watch great games. RTS is basically dead without SC2... maybe that is why these guys are so negative ,there is really no alternative.
i'm a beacon of positivity and optimism relative to the "end of the world" gang who basically sound to me like 14 year olds who've become bored of SC2s graphics.
I have to agree tho, lots of complaining. There are times where I just had it with these forums (especially at the time Kespa players came from SC2, and hearing so many people say esf players were shit in comparison to them). I would feel just so stressed and irritated, that I even couldn't sleep at night thinking about it. I got over it tho.
If there's a tip I can give you (take it of you like, ignore if you don't): What I did was read over the whiny/shitty posts or convince myself they are just opinions (which they mostly are). I just avoid every internet discussion. You can never win anyway, even if you're right.
It's all right. I took a break from TL time to time because the TL community can get pretty toxic time to time. You're only human, so go take your leave! You earned it, and some of TLers will be waiting for your return! :D
i think the complaining could be just the general state of the RTS genre. SC2 goes away.. and its basically gone. no one is making AAA RTS games any more.
Gearbox is taking a kick at the can... but nothing has been shown of Homeworld yet.
On January 23 2014 05:15 Plansix wrote: Avilo got there by whining endlessly. Still does.
vast over simplification... and its posts like this that do nothing for the forum... and perpetuate the kind of negativity you are complaining about.
you could phrase it in a neutral way: "Avilo put a lot of time and effort into persuading TL to feature him".
This is really sad, you were always a great enrichment to all conversations in the LR-threads and elsewere. I hope at some time, the forum will be a place, that you can enjoy again, personally I would´nt bother, if the mods would be a bit more aggressive with banning. Until then I look forward to your articles - and I still have to pay you those 4$ back at some point.
You're having a severe case of tunnel vision here.
People, in general, are going to be relatively unhappy about everything - at least in terms of picking flaws anywhere they can find. It's not just Oracles and Warp Gates, it's also the government, the economy, the state of music industry, sports, every hobby known to man, anything gaming-related ever made, Steam, Youtube, Electornic Arts, D&D 4th edition and the new Tyranid Codex in WH40k. And by the way, in all those things I have rarely heard "negative" complaints that are not rooted in truth.
The negativity is especially going to be visible in larger communities, and tones down significantly in smaller / tighter communities. When I joined TL (actually probably a year before that), it used to be a cool place filled with people committed to a very fringe hobby. I remember being intimidated as fuck when I was making my first posts here, and I spent a lot of time making sure I frame my argument properly. Of course that kind of atmosphere is going to degrade as its popularity and size of the community increases. Now I give zero fucks about what someone in a crowd glancing over my posts might think when they read it.
On January 23 2014 04:19 Plansix wrote: I am with you Z-man. I'm going to avoid the general discussion threads for a while and stick to the lands where people really watch SC2. The live report thread for WCS challenger league was a blast last night and after that, there is no reason to go back to general discussion.
In the end, the sad fact is that R/Starcraft has become a more positive, inviting place than SC2 general discussion. There is a 153 comment thread celebrating Desrow making it to premier league. The top thread TL is people whining about balance.
Actually, two of the top five are about balance whining.
I think it's indicative of the attitude of a portion of the remaining playerbase in general. SC2 has lost a lot of the casual players, and a significant percentage of the current players are the "wannabe diehard" players. Players who are Silver "just because they don't play enough, should be Diamond", or are in "Platinum Terran but could be High Masters Toss". These people are into Starcraft, but feel entitled to be doing better just because they're on TL and /r/Starcraft.
you are taking this too seriously zealously. the thing is whining has always been here, it was whining about terran first, then about zerg, now it's time to whine about toss. even though i have to admit it hurts me when people are telling me that my race needs inferior skill, in the end everything i can do about it is laughing. the thing nowadays is quite different though. progamers start to act like no pros, they act like little children and the one person who overstepped his boundaries was sjow, maybe the first progamer who in my opinion doesn't deserve any respect for what he had done. he encouraged fans to act like whiners because he himself changed his race to show that toss is so "EZ" and failed horribly. after that he even stated some excuses why it didn't work. this is the point where you can only look at that and say: "yea, these guys just don't like reality, they don't like being reasonable, they just want to whine, cause that's all they do." you are a great contributor to this forum and it would be a shame if these people are the reason for missing you in the LR threads. try to not give attention to these people but stay here and be funny please! <3 don't worry be happy is probably my advice, because you can't do anything about people's opinion. you can't change them. hopefully it won't be a long break!
On January 23 2014 06:00 Grumbels wrote: Isn't this whining about whining? I'm sure more depressed having read this. I think CJ doing badly broke Zealously.
Let's just hope that this thread won't turn into another "save SC2" discussion. :o
It's being tired of people who dislike SC2 dominating the discussion. General discussion has become a place where people who are just excited about SC2 can't really go to share their enthusiasm. The live report threads are better, but general discussion is kind of a cesspool.
The only time I visit LR threads nowadays is when HerO plays. To tell everyone how well he played or defend him if he loses. Other than that I don't even bother anymore for the exact same reasons. I'm not sure when the LR threads became twitch chat where every second comment is balance whine about protoss and I'm not sure exactly who would enjoy such a thing but I definitely understand why you don't.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
On January 23 2014 05:07 stuchiu wrote: With you gone who else is going to laugh at my stupid jokes noooooo
I laugh.
not true, he cries, I've been there.
On January 23 2014 06:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only time I visit LR threads nowadays is when HerO plays. To tell everyone how well he played or defend him if he loses. Other than that I don't even bother anymore for the exact same reasons.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
But isn't that also because of a perception that everything is going BW's way now? And the opposite in sc2?
I also think that BW was never patched never opened the door to the kind of balance whining that goes on in sc2. BW does have it's annoying habits, mostly with people trying to start the bw vs sc2 'discussion' in completely stupid and unrelated ways.
On January 23 2014 06:41 The_Templar wrote: But zealously, every player needs an iconic fan to bring positivity and to glorify their player. Who will fill in the spot for Life now?
CosmicSpiral is around, and I can be a pseudo replacement in LR threads.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
A part of the bad experience of SC2 forums is actually a lot of BW fans frequently bashing SC2 in the SC2 section. If nothing else, it adds to the "ded gaem" and balance whining crowd. Unfortunately I'm dead serious.
We could all be so happy if we just enjoyed what we want, without telling others what they have to enjoy
I do miss the day when there was no balance discussion thread and balance discussions were just shot down more. It was so long ago, but it was a nice time.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
A part of the bad experience of SC2 forums is actually a lot of BW fans frequently bashing SC2 in the SC2 section. If nothing else, it adds to the "ded gaem" and balance whining crowd. Unfortunately I'm dead serious.
We could all be so happy if we just enjoyed what we want, without telling others what they have to enjoy
My pet peeve are people bringing up how great BW was... and then they never post in any BW LR thread or do anything BW-related. It's just regurgitating arguments they've heard elsewhere.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
A part of the bad experience of SC2 forums is actually a lot of BW fans frequently bashing SC2 in the SC2 section. If nothing else, it adds to the "ded gaem" and balance whining crowd. Unfortunately I'm dead serious.
We could all be so happy if we just enjoyed what we want, without telling others what they have to enjoy
My pet peeve are people bringing up how great BW was... and then they never post in any BW LR thread or do anything BW-related. It's just regurgitating arguments they've heard elsewhere.
The term for them is BW hipster. Never watched BW and doesn't follow the scene, but will happy tell you how the game is superior to SC2.
There's so many good posts explaining your unreasonable and too emotionally-attached state of mind right now. Therefore, I won't bother trying to explain why your blog post isn't very effective, or meaningful if anything. I don't mean to offend you, but it's really sad to see somebody quitting TL because of so much of "whining". It's as if you've never experienced whining before.
The late-game whine is completely OP, I agree. I've been thinking about retiring too, because it seems like everyone uses whine these days and use abusive strats. I thought Blizzard TL would do something about this ridiculous imbalance, but it's clear that no one wants to address this problem. I might just make the switch to Liquidhearth, and away from all this drama.
On January 23 2014 07:22 ninazerg wrote: The late-game whine is completely OP, I agree. I've been thinking about retiring too, because it seems like everyone uses whine these days and use abusive strats. I thought Blizzard TL would do something about this ridiculous imbalance, but it's clear that no one wants to address this problem. I might just make the switch to Liquidhearth, and away from all this drama.
On January 23 2014 04:35 Noobity wrote: Zealously has some good points, but I disagree that TL is any worse than anywhere else in regards to what is or isn't decent.
There are a lot of problems with the types of posters in most game forums, and I think that as a whole nobody really wants to be as relentless in moderation as they need to in order to fix it.
If it were up to me I'd ban every single pointless post that was negative without anything constructive. Every "Broodwar is better" post would be banned in the sc2 section. Every "Lol who still plays BW" post would be banned in the BW section. Every balance whine post that was made outside of the designated balance threads would be banned, and the designated balance threads would be heavily moderated to constructive posts.
The problem is that extremely few people, deep down, actually want that. Hell I'm not even certain I want that. They want a place that they can say what they want within reason and they want to be able to argue. They want to be able to troll, they want to be able to hide their trolling to the best of their ability, hoping it gets by the filters of the mods.
In general, this is a problem with the internet as a whole and something that cannot ever be fixed entirely.
You'll be back, Zealously, and you'll see how retarded all this shit is all over again. It's an endless cycle that can really suck sometimes. I'd be a liar if I said the whole of it was bad, or that I didn't enjoy the majority, but it's fuckin frustrating at times and you just need a break every now and then.
At least on reddit people can down vote the assholes who post shit like that. But on TL, we have to hope the mods agree that the post is shit. It has gotten better, but the top two threads on TL general are about a mod and some amazing balance whine.
That makes me think, what if TL had a downvote/upvote function for posts and after a certain threshold it would spoiler the post or something? Just don't make the upvotes count towards some total on the account.
It will be sad to see you go. You, Plansix, stuchiu and a few others always made enjoyable posts, in one way or another. I too have felt what you bring up, and that's why I don't read every thread of SC2 content out there anymore. I don't want to read balance complaints, caster complaints, production complaints, player complaints etc etc every comment everywhere...
you're not going anywhere... you have over 10k posts.. you're addicted to this site! you will, by habit, still visit this site every day and you will have to force yourself not to post anything.. good luck with that...
Zealousy, you should make a Starcraft QQ thread. Keep all the negativity in one cesspool so the fun people who are here to talk about the game they love can chill in peace
I, too, wish the awkward negative stigma wasn't attached to SC2. It's genuinely a fun game, but according to the internet it's a shit game and a sign that nostalgia-blizzard is dead. I was playing a game of Dota against a Col.Ryan, and of course asked "SC2 Col.Ryan?", only to later have one of my teammates say "Lol he thinks hes a bigshot because he plays a dead game".
It feels like it's getting the same treatment as Diablo 3 got, and is partly sourced from everyone's general Blizzard burnout. Too many years of WoW and too big of shoes to fill for some of its titles makes everyone a bit salty when they're not showing the same levels of innovation from years past.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
But isn't that also because of a perception that everything is going BW's way now? And the opposite in sc2?
I also think that BW was never patched never opened the door to the kind of balance whining that goes on in sc2. BW does have it's annoying habits, mostly with people trying to start the bw vs sc2 'discussion' in completely stupid and unrelated ways.
BW has some whining too. I whine about latemech all the time THAT LATE MECH IT KNOCK OUT KILLER. SCREW YOU MONGPIG T_T
Zealously, it's natural to feel disappointed and frustrated at how the SCII general forum has become. There does seem to be more whining from the brief time that I visit the SCII forum these days but so far, I haven't seen enough to justify deciding not to post anymore. As previously mentioned, there's much more to TL than just the SCII forums. The general section(post carefully lol), media and entertainment and even the BW forums which have some of the most amazing threads(let's not forget the final edits) are all part of what makes TL, TL. Whether you decide to come back or not is your choice but I personally don't feel that it's as bad as you say it is and feel that ignoring those whining (report and move on) is much better than throwing in the towel and leaving something you loved. Best of luck to you.
PS roro >>>>> life, believe it! :D
On January 23 2014 09:39 IMoperator wrote: attention whoring huh?
cmon, you could've phrased that a lot better >.> Seems more like he's experiencing frustration than attention whoring though.
On January 23 2014 01:42 lichter wrote: reading lr threads like this is like having a hentai succubus suck me dry
it's wrong that it feels so good but i'm left passionless and tired after it and i'll probably explode or have my soul taken from me as i grumble about how everyone is so negative in between laughing at all the terrible posts sheesh
On January 23 2014 01:42 lichter wrote: reading lr threads like this is like having a hentai succubus suck me dry
it's wrong that it feels so good but i'm left passionless and tired after it and i'll probably explode or have my soul taken from me as i grumble about how everyone is so negative in between laughing at all the terrible posts sheesh
On January 23 2014 01:42 lichter wrote: reading lr threads like this is like having a hentai succubus suck me dry
it's wrong that it feels so good but i'm left passionless and tired after it and i'll probably explode or have my soul taken from me as i grumble about how everyone is so negative in between laughing at all the terrible posts sheesh
Well, that sucks that you've had enough. I know I certainly had made many of the posts that you probably were frustrated with. I guess people could expect me to change my behavior?
HELL NO! I've been a cynical, pessimistic asshole ever since Slayers disbanded amid drama, and I'm likely to remain a cynical, pessimistic asshole until the end of my days as an SC2 fan. I do have to give a shoutout to the people on these forums who have put up with my bullshit for all this time though...god bless you
Fair enough, dude. You got to do what you got to do.
I think you could get by with just ignoring SC2 General, though. That is the real cesspit of TL. LR threads can be iffy, at times, but they have always had that danger and usually you can get by. Especially as there are a number of people in LR threads who are watching for the love of the game and the players, and because the whine is usually left behind with the next game.
Have to agree that moderation is getting really relaxed nowadays, so much balance whining in LR threads, design threads etcetc but I am learning to just ignore those posts, takes time to master this skill though
Hope I still see you hanging out in the LR threads from time to time. Not that the balance whine can't be bad in those threads too, but at least if that's going on you can be, y'know, watching the game. Gotta have some non-toxic people hanging around, so the LR threads stay as fun as they can be!
On January 23 2014 13:28 Bagration wrote: Well, that sucks that you've had enough. I know I certainly had made many of the posts that you probably were frustrated with. I guess people could expect me to change my behavior?
HELL NO! I've been a cynical, pessimistic asshole ever since Slayers disbanded amid drama, and I'm likely to remain a cynical, pessimistic asshole until the end of my days as an SC2 fan. I do have to give a shoutout to the people on these forums who have put up with my bullshit for all this time though...god bless you
It's like you took so many words right out of my mouth. I agree with almost everything you said.
I mean, yes, whining is to some extent unavoidable and sometimes necessary to make things change (I've made plenty of less than positive posts myself), but when negativity becomes the defining attitude in a place like this, it can sometimes be unbearable.
TL.net is supposed to be the hub of the Starcraft II community, and the prevalent attitude here is that Starcraft II and its scene sucks.
Try to wrap your head around that for a moment. I'm not saying that everyone who ever posts here has to preface every post with saying how awesome SC II is, but when so many people seem to actively dislike the game, it makes me wonder what the hell those people are still doing in the community. Why stay? If you don't like it, why not just move on? Why stick around and create a toxic atmosphere to suffocate those who actually, you know, enjoy Starcraft II (gasp)?
And sure, some will refer to all the negativity as "cynicism" or whatever makes it sound more cool, but to me a lot of it seems more like self-indulgent social self-pitying. Whining for the sake of whining, done as a group activity. I'm sure there are plenty of cool people here who complain about the game, the balance, the tournaments, and everything in between with the intention of actually improving on things, but everything has a limit. If talking about Starcraft II in Youtube comments and Twitch chats can be a more positive and enjoyable experience than doing it on TL.net, hasn't something gone wrong somewhere? Isn't this place supposed to be better than this? Aren't WE supposed to be better than this?
Zealously, I'm feeling you. Still, don't retreat, if not for those of us who cherish your contribution to countless threads then for Life! He needs your support in all those Life-ignorant threads on TL! (I know this is cheap, but one gotta try)
I read your sad post and thought, "The internet has claimed another." To be really passionate about something is to fail to moderate the fervor in posting to defend it. Everyone's a Critic. It takes effort to rise above and find the good things in life. It takes effort to shut the ears and eyes to the bile-spewing types that would find fault if you gave them a wrinkled hundred-dollar bill.
I hope you take a short-term break and come back to see you in LR threads and tournament discussion in general.
You were one of the main reasons why I haven't entirely left the LR threads yet. Thanks for having tried for so long. You are a awesome human being and I don't think people tell you that often enough.
TL.net is supposed to be the hub of the Starcraft II community, and the prevalent attitude here is that Starcraft II and its scene sucks.
I think that is a mis-perception. Albeit, one with harmful effects especially to those not acquainted with the community. A casual visitor to TL would get the impression that SC2 sucked, that everyone hated it, that Blizzard was shit and on and on and on. But in Strategy threads and in LR threads and in blogs you still get the sense of people who like SC2 and want to talk about it with like-minded people. Basically, a lot of us go about our business of enjoying our game and get on with it.
I see the whiners representing a small part of the TL community, and the TL community itself representing a small part of the overall SC2 community (and it is a big one - a lot of people just play without having to lurk and/or post in forums). It's best not to take the bile from a small part of the TL community overly seriously. You might even want to feel sorry for them. Miserable morons, hating a game so much and yet being unable to leave it. Pathetic, don't you think?
tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
A couple things, the BW forums were nothing like you describe, and BW is still going on with SSL and soon GOM Classic.
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
Dude, I wasn't here for the BW era. But, having read posts from others who were here at that time, there was quite a lot of whining and crying going on even then. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't as BW for most of its history was a lot worse balance wise than SC2. The only difference was that the smaller population maybe meant that it was less noticeable and good forum influences were able to hold sway (but this is just supposition from me). The difference between then and now may only be one of degree not kind. The other factor, of course, was that Blizzard was deaf to all the crying. So, that was an incentive to, in the end, shut up about whatever issue was keeping you up at night, because Blizzard would not save you and your race.
And no-one is forced to watch SC. BW streams and tournaments are still around, and now there is SB. Heck, I've gone through periods where I watch it less because, at times, the game can be boring. There is, after all, so much of it on all the time. But, that does not mean that I hold it against Blizzard that I don't like the game as much at times. Don't like it? Do something else.
As to the rest, I disagree. I've watched this game since late 2010/early 2011, and play has gotten better. SC2 is a different game from BW, so the strategies and play styles that evolve from it will take as much time and development as the many deep and varied strategies and styles of BW. The food was good. And the food is even better now than before.
Edit/ Anyway, I won't be continuing this. It would be an ironic derailment of Zealously's cbf anymore hiatus from TL thread.
1) We know Blizzard is afraid to make make changes (too lazy, too detached, too corporate-whatever)
2) We know Blizzard wants to be the good guys
3) We know that when the shit hits the fan, they get of their asses and do as their customers wish.
I mean, do I need to paint a picture? It all makes sense.
If people want something (a better game) they have to bitch and whine loud enough, so their parents (Blizzard) get to the point of feeling judged by strangers about how they clearly mistreat their kids. What do parents do then? Put up with the hassle of explaining shit, while tantrums are thrown? Hell no, they´re busy wasting away in their 50 hour jobs thinking about the life they could´ve had if they hadn´t been too drunk to bother with condoms that one night. So, under the ominous looks of old ladies, who start to sigh an awful lot in their direction, they realize their options with regard to shutting the brat up:
a) Explain in a reasonable way that there are factors outside of their kid´s reach, like having to earn a living and take care of other shit that keeps their lives running, which make its demand unreasonable. b) Give in to the immediate urge of smacking that egoistical maniac in the mouth and show him whose boss, which, while being satisfying on an instinctual level, would lead to problems with old ladies who would have to be smacked as well then, and also leave a bad taste in one´s mouth because of how poorly that rampant misbehavior reflects on one´s own educational efforts, which were lacking to say the least, because why take care of something one didn´t want in the first place? c) Stuff that screaming hole with some ice-cream so mummy and daddy can ponder their headaches and life-decisions in peace.
In the light of sudden patches that, while made with a straight face and an air of independent decision-making (like "I bought you just that toy not because you nagged me out of my mind, but because I thought it would be cool. So don´t think you could blackmail me."), we have learned that demands will be met, when a critical mass of toxicity is reached. So, in order to reach the lala-land of a perfectly balanced game like there were none before, people have to bitch and whine as much as possible, no breaks. Naturally Blizzard´s tolerance increases with every tantrum, every "you´re not my real parents, I hate you", every "this sucks, I´m gonna kill myself, and it´s your fault", so they become less likely to give in to the same amount of pressure. So, people, you gotta pump up the volume, make a scene out on the street, where everybody can see it and feel self-conscious. Eventually they´ll give in, buff tanks, make Collosi fly, whatever is "the worst thing ever!" at the moment. Just because they want you to shut up, before other grown ups start to decline invitations, giving dubious excuses, like "something just came up, but we´ll definitely keep in touch. No it´s not because of your asshole-kid, it´s just, you know, something...".
The thing is, because SC2 is a complex game where turning one wheel can mean that other wheels one didn´t even know start screwing up, no patch will make the game perfect as it´s supposed to be. The only sensible way to go about it, is to keep the pressure up. Whine and bitch and moan all the time, so the changes and eventual entry into paradise stay close. If not, Blizzard will get complacent again and think of other things than containing the rage-fire. The atmosphere must remain toxic, so they´re afraid people will abandon ship, and are forced to act and the game is improved.
In the end, all the balance-whining, self-entitlement and toxicity only serves the higher purpose to increase the fun.
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
A couple things, the BW forums were nothing like you describe, and BW is still going on with SSL and soon GOM Classic.
1. I was trying to say forums were much better. my wording/phrasing wasn't good. 2. I know bw tournaments are going on. But they're nothing like SPL, OSL or MSL. Besides they don't get covered/highlighted/featured much.
All in all, my arguments still holds. Instead of complaining about whiners you should look into core problem, meaning WHINING is effect, GAME FLAWS are the cause.
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
Dude, I wasn't here for the BW era. But, having read posts from others who were here at that time, there was quite a lot of whining and crying going on even then. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't as BW for most of its history was a lot worse balance wise than SC2. The only difference was that the smaller population maybe meant that it was less noticeable and good forum influences were able to hold sway (but this is just supposition from me). The difference between then and now may only be one of degree not kind. The other factor, of course, was that Blizzard was deaf to all the crying. So, that was an incentive to, in the end, shut up about whatever issue was keeping you up at night, because Blizzard would not save you and your race.
And no-one is forced to watch SC. BW streams and tournaments are still around, and now there is SB. Heck, I've gone through periods where I watch it less because, at times, the game can be boring. There is, after all, so much of it on all the time. But, that does not mean that I hold it against Blizzard that I don't like the game as much at times. Don't like it? Do something else.
As to the rest, I disagree. I've watched this game since late 2010/early 2011, and it has gotten better. SC2 is a different game from BW, so the strategies and play styles that evolve from it will take as much time and development as the many deep and varied strategies and styles of BW. The food was good. And the food is even better now than before.
Edit/ Anyway, I won't be continuing this. It would be an ironic derailment of Zealously's cbf anymore hiatus from TL thread.
I'm sorry for you if you weren't here in BW era. You missed a great time, back in the days sun was always shining and people were pleasant and warm in TL. Anyway, here is a random LR thread I clicked, I didn't specifically search.
And here is the list of OSL championships, check their LR threads, and I guarantee you at 90%, you'll see nothing like balance complaints, game bashing or general shit posting.
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
A couple things, the BW forums were nothing like you describe, and BW is still going on with SSL and soon GOM Classic.
1. I was trying to say forums were much better. my wording/phrasing wasn't good. 2. I know bw tournaments are going on. But they're nothing like SPL, OSL or MSL. Besides they don't get covered/highlighted/featured much.
All in all, my arguments still holds. Instead of complaining about whiners you should look into core problem, meaning WHINING is effect, GAME FLAWS are the cause.
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
Dude, I wasn't here for the BW era. But, having read posts from others who were here at that time, there was quite a lot of whining and crying going on even then. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't as BW for most of its history was a lot worse balance wise than SC2. The only difference was that the smaller population maybe meant that it was less noticeable and good forum influences were able to hold sway (but this is just supposition from me). The difference between then and now may only be one of degree not kind. The other factor, of course, was that Blizzard was deaf to all the crying. So, that was an incentive to, in the end, shut up about whatever issue was keeping you up at night, because Blizzard would not save you and your race.
And no-one is forced to watch SC. BW streams and tournaments are still around, and now there is SB. Heck, I've gone through periods where I watch it less because, at times, the game can be boring. There is, after all, so much of it on all the time. But, that does not mean that I hold it against Blizzard that I don't like the game as much at times. Don't like it? Do something else.
As to the rest, I disagree. I've watched this game since late 2010/early 2011, and it has gotten better. SC2 is a different game from BW, so the strategies and play styles that evolve from it will take as much time and development as the many deep and varied strategies and styles of BW. The food was good. And the food is even better now than before.
Edit/ Anyway, I won't be continuing this. It would be an ironic derailment of Zealously's cbf anymore hiatus from TL thread.
I'm sorry for you if you weren't here in BW era. You missed a great time, back in the days sun was always shining and people were pleasant and warm in TL. Anyway, here is a random LR thread I clicked, I didn't specifically search.
And here is the list of OSL championships, check their LR threads, and I guarantee you at 90%, you'll see nothing like balance complaints, game bashing or general shit posting.
Right, and if I do a quick search in BW general I come up with this and this. I didn't look through too much of that LR but I'd expect there to be minimal crying about a game 8 years after Blizzard last patched the game and after they had made it clear they did not give a damn about win rates. So, I am not sure what that is meant to prove other than what I talked about in my reply to your post. A difference of degree not kind and a different environment from different circumstances.
So, no, you are wrong. It has little to do with the game and a lot more to do with people's sense of self-entitlement. And even if it did have to do with the game, it does not make it right nor that if you don't like it, you get to flood the forum with tears.
Ironically enough, your posts are just what the OP is talking about. But, meh, I really am done now.
On January 23 2014 04:27 vOdToasT wrote: I just came back from browsing the SC2 section a bit.
Wow.
The SC2 community complains more about its own game than any other I have ever seen. I honestly wonder why they play it. It's not like most of them are making money off of it. How can these people, who dislike it so much, play it for fun?
Seriously 90% of the complainers don't even play the game, that's the sad part of the story. Sadly bashing the game has become a sport since a year or so. The people that just play the game have largely left TL because they don't to argue with idiots anymore, they only read articles but thats it. There is also good discussion, but whenever it touches weak points of SC2's design, magically some so called "fans" appear and turn the thread into a bashfest.
I wonder what happened.I took a one year break from TL and when I came back everything had turned to not-quite-shit-but-close-enough.
But the by far worst thing for me (unrelated): No new Gambit Cup in sight T-T. I NEED MY FOREIGN BW TEAM LEAGUES :'(
On January 23 2014 17:01 saddaromma wrote: tbh, to me, being unhappy with much whining and blaiming whiners for that sounds like hypocricy. Just try to remember how forums were clean and intelligent in bw era, and suddenly it became totally opposite in sc2 era. Do you really think people changed and became worse? Ofc not. There is no other thing to blame than the game itself (or its creators), now you could say, gtfo if you don't like it. We're happy without you bla bla bla. But people cant just quit easily, since they were fond of starcraft so many years, and there is no bw content anymore, thanks to blizzard we're forced to watch sc2 if we want 'starcraft' (though I believe many already left, and only diehard fans stay here).
In short, best way to describe it. Starcraft is like a lonely restaurant in a small town, it used to serve good food and now it serves junkfood, Ofc people will complain, since they're left with no other option. Some people already left the town to find other places (LoL, Dota). And only few stay here and still hope that the restaurant may become what once it was (read: Starbow gets own ladder)
Dude, I wasn't here for the BW era. But, having read posts from others who were here at that time, there was quite a lot of whining and crying going on even then. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't as BW for most of its history was a lot worse balance wise than SC2. The only difference was that the smaller population maybe meant that it was less noticeable and good forum influences were able to hold sway (but this is just supposition from me). The difference between then and now may only be one of degree not kind. The other factor, of course, was that Blizzard was deaf to all the crying. So, that was an incentive to, in the end, shut up about whatever issue was keeping you up at night, because Blizzard would not save you and your race.
And no-one is forced to watch SC. BW streams and tournaments are still around, and now there is SB. Heck, I've gone through periods where I watch it less because, at times, the game can be boring. There is, after all, so much of it on all the time. But, that does not mean that I hold it against Blizzard that I don't like the game as much at times. Don't like it? Do something else.
As to the rest, I disagree. I've watched this game since late 2010/early 2011, and it has gotten better. SC2 is a different game from BW, so the strategies and play styles that evolve from it will take as much time and development as the many deep and varied strategies and styles of BW. The food was good. And the food is even better now than before.
Edit/ Anyway, I won't be continuing this. It would be an ironic derailment of Zealously's cbf anymore hiatus from TL thread.
I'm sorry for you if you weren't here in BW era. You missed a great time, back in the days sun was always shining and people were pleasant and warm in TL. Anyway, here is a random LR thread I clicked, I didn't specifically search.
And here is the list of OSL championships, check their LR threads, and I guarantee you at 90%, you'll see nothing like balance complaints, game bashing or general shit posting.
Right, and if I do a quick search in BW general I come up with this and this. I didn't look through too much of that LR but I'd expect there to be minimal crying about a game 8 years after Blizzard last patched the game and after they had made it clear they did not give a damn about win rates. So, I am not sure what that is meant to prove other than what I talked about in my reply to your post. A difference of degree not kind and a different environment from different circumstances.
So, no, you are wrong. It has little to do with the game and a lot more to do with people's sense of self-entitlement. And even if it did have to do with the game, it does not make it right nor that if you don't like it, you get to flood the forum with tears.
Ironically enough, your posts are just what the OP is talking about. But, meh, I really am done now.
Ok, so you specifically searched threads with word 'balance' or 'patch'. Well done sherlock. But you get C- for your homework, because: a) both threads are not locked and died naturally. b) there are only 5-6 pages in each of them. Clearly balance topic wasn't popular back then and was raised only by few indviduals. (as I said ~90% of forum back then was fine)
And by the way, I'm not flooding the forum with tears. Please stop wrong accusation and don't start flame wars. Be constructive and less toxic. No need of 'I am leaving, I'm done'. If you can't handle yourself, maybe you shouldn't be posting here.
Run as you want, but this exists wherever you go in the esports world.
Riot stagnates its own meta. They _still_ haven't released a god damn replay system. Tribunal punishments are often wrong. EUW Server instability.
Valve didn't give Diretide. SEA servers were unstable. Long-ass queue times. Russians everywhere.
Activision dumbed down their game even more with Ghosts. Ghillie suits are op. Lots of the perks are dumb.
Hitboxes are different. Maps suck. No individual skill. Random lag spikes.
Melee/Project M/BW/Diablo 2/1.6/Halo123/WoW Vanilla/insertwhateveroldergametosoundhipster was better.
The vast majority of my friends who still watch SC2 still love it, even though they don't watch it much anymore. Hanging out on forums naturally lends itself to arguments, disagreements, and venting. It's the god damn internet.
Unless...you're counter-meta-trolling by reverse whining about the whiners. In that case, bravo.
To be fair there is a whole lot of complaining about complaining. Soon I guess the new standard will be complaining about people who complain about complaining. And it continues like that. The best would probably be if everyone could shut up to some extent
Well my experience as a reader is ruined by whine, so I get to complain about it. If a whiner's experience as a whiner is ruined by my whining about his whining, he can complain about it if he wants. I'm not sure he won't look dumb doing it, though.
On January 23 2014 22:00 Nebuchad wrote: Well my experience as a reader is ruined by whine, so I get to complain about it. If a whiner's experience as a whiner is ruined by my whining about his whining, he can complain about it if he wants. I'm not sure he won't look dumb doing it, though.
Well I guess my point is, be careful about turning your own complaints into whining aswell
On January 23 2014 22:00 Nebuchad wrote: Well my experience as a reader is ruined by whine, so I get to complain about it. If a whiner's experience as a whiner is ruined by my whining about his whining, he can complain about it if he wants. I'm not sure he won't look dumb doing it, though.
Well I guess my point is, be careful about turning your own complaints into whining aswell
That's pretty much the same thing :p But I see your point anyway.
Zealously, it appears you are focusing on the Terrans' biased complaining when it's prevalent amongst all the races. Yeah, you get less complaining from the group that is faring better; and more from the ones doing worse. But your blog post gives the impression that it's only the Terrans with bias - and I see all the Protoss congregate here. Hence, Sad Zealot Club 2.0.
Here is a prime example of a Protoss showing much bias. You have the banhammer now, I forward this post to you. Shit post or not, your call.:
On January 23 2014 22:05 -Celestial- wrote: Zerg is currently at a 7/11 64% rate of qualifying to Code S. Roughly on par with the 11/16 69% qualification rate for Protoss.
And yet Terrans only complain about one of these. Bias much.
On January 23 2014 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote: You're desperate, aren't you.
TvZ is currently 10 v 11, so 48% with one game separating them. That's a bit different from the 1821% winrate T has against P.
Furthermore, Supernova and Bbyong made it into Code S by beating zergs. While not a single terran who had to play against a P made it into Code S.
While I don't think everything is alright in the TvZ MU after the WM nerf, this Code A does not show us that there's a problem.
Which is followed by (notice that he cuts out the factual response in the quoted reply):
On January 23 2014 22:05 -Celestial- wrote: Zerg is currently at a 7/11 64% rate of qualifying to Code S. Roughly on par with the 11/16 69% qualification rate for Protoss.
And yet Terrans only complain about one of these. Bias much.
You're desperate, aren't you.
Not really. I'm giving you the facts.
The fact you're yelling about matchup percentages actually demonstrates you desparate you and your compatriots are. First you cry about Terran low representation because "whaaa all the Protoss are qualifying instead". Then its pointed out that Zerg are qualifying at roughly the same rate you change your tune.
But go ahead and keep crying about it if you want. I won't be reading any more. Absolutely no reasoning with the balance whine on these forums.
While others do chime in with reasonable responses such as:
On January 23 2014 22:24 opterown wrote: lol Celestial you're being incredibly biased yourself. while i don't care for balance whine or whatever, the reason why terrans are whining is the low winrate in TvP, despite zergs also doing decently. it should be pretty damn easy to see why.
So what happen? You used to have a writers pin right? Now you are a mod! Someone decided to give you the power to actually do something with all the troll posts?
Even Flash and Life are going right for the crotch.
And grats on becoming a banling Zealously. Sometimes there are unexpected good results to things, although I'll wait to see if I get banned before deciding how good it is.
you write this little blog in order to tell us, you will stop posting on TL. And then the next day, you swing the hammer. Something doesnt compute here. Perhaps admins felt so charmed by this post, they had to hire you? :D
Everyone is biased plogamer, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Celestial is just showing poor argumentative skills.
If you're trying to say that being biased is the same thing as whining, then you're just as wrong as he is. I can go fetch some of ghanburighan's posts when he was a prime member of the antiwhine police during the beginning of HotS, and compare them to his posts today; you could clearly see a shift. Except Ghan doesn't go out of his way to make sure my TL experience is ruined.
TL.net is supposed to be the hub of the Starcraft II community, and the prevalent attitude here is that Starcraft II and its scene sucks.
I think that is a mis-perception. Albeit, one with harmful effects especially to those not acquainted with the community. A casual visitor to TL would get the impression that SC2 sucked, that everyone hated it, that Blizzard was shit and on and on and on. But in Strategy threads and in LR threads and in blogs you still get the sense of people who like SC2 and want to talk about it with like-minded people. Basically, a lot of us go about our business of enjoying our game and get on with it.
I see the whiners representing a small part of the TL community, and the TL community itself representing a small part of the overall SC2 community (and it is a big one - a lot of people just play without having to lurk and/or post in forums). It's best not to take the bile from a small part of the TL community overly seriously. You might even want to feel sorry for them. Miserable morons, hating a game so much and yet being unable to leave it. Pathetic, don't you think?
I don't think that is a mis-perception at all. If a casual observer would come to the forums and get the impression that SC2 sucked and Blizzard sucked then that's a pretty accurate perception. If the naysayers are a minority, they're an extremely vocal minority and it doesn't really matter how many people like something in a forum when 2/3 of posts are negative. A large part of the problem is that those bashing the game are so fantastically adamant that the game sucks and they're not culled. The mods are extremely lenient with a lot of stuff which is, in my opinion, the biggest problem. I don't know if I'd like the forums if they were harsher in moderation, but I think that the way they mod is why there is this specific problem right now.
Understand too, that a lot of people who enjoy SC2 don't play it anymore. I don't see any reason why I'd go into the strategy section of the forums if I don't play SC2 right now. I enjoy the game, I enjoyed playing the game, but I simply burned myself out on playing it and now I'd rather watch games and read/talk about the aspects of the game that interest me. Reading a thread about a match and seeing "oh what, those banelings wouldn't have done nearly as much if the game was optimized like Brood War. What the fuck is blizzard doing? They're terrible at making and balancing games." and then that chucklehead's 5 buddies coming in and parroting his sentiments is pretty off-putting for a guy like me. The strategy section of the forums has nothing for me at this time, if that's where true fans are relegated to going to not be bombarded by the nonsensical hate then TL.net doesn't really have anything for a guy like me.
On January 23 2014 23:47 Nebuchad wrote: Everyone is biased plogamer, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Celestial is just showing poor argumentative skills.
If you're trying to say that being biased is the same thing as whining, then you're just as wrong as he is. I can go fetch some of ghanburighan's posts when he was a prime member of the antiwhine police during the beginning of HotS, and compare them to his posts today; you could clearly see a shift. Except Ghan doesn't go out of his way to make sure my TL experience is ruined.
That Zealously unfairly paints Terran concerns as whines. No doubt there are unreasonable concerns, which would fall under the category of "whine" I suppose. But to lambast anyone who raises a voice over oracles or warp tech?
I didn't have to go digging (through a span of beginning of HotS to current, like you seem to suggest) for the posts I showed above. They were right there on today's Code A LR thread, within a couple of pages. When presented with numbers for why Terrans are complaining about Protoss over Zerg, Celestial closes his/her ears and leaves with insult for Ghan; going as far as removing valid content Ghan's post. That's not just argumentative skill at work here.
I wanted to highlight that questionable, biased posts, come from everyone. As you say, everyone is biased. My concern is merely the portrayal of this biased whining and how it is being lapped up by the Protoss congregation here.
PS. Calling it "poor argumentative skills" is rather apologetic.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
A part of the bad experience of SC2 forums is actually a lot of BW fans frequently bashing SC2 in the SC2 section. If nothing else, it adds to the "ded gaem" and balance whining crowd. Unfortunately I'm dead serious.
We could all be so happy if we just enjoyed what we want, without telling others what they have to enjoy
My pet peeve are people bringing up how great BW was... and then they never post in any BW LR thread or do anything BW-related. It's just regurgitating arguments they've heard elsewhere.
The term for them is BW hipster. Never watched BW and doesn't follow the scene, but will happy tell you how the game is superior to SC2.
Hahaha, it never gets old hearing people talk about why BW is better than SC2, and clearly being clueless.
My personal favourite: "BW didn't have death balls because you could only select 12 units at a time" (they always use past tense).
As if the difference between 1a and 1a2a3a is that great. So stupid. -.- Also, there are viable strategies that revolve around keeping as many of your units as possible together, in a "death ball". I'm tired of these silly hipsters.
i really appreciated Zealously's lengthy post detailing his precise reasoning for "going on strike" in a certain section of TL. usually, when browsing TL.Net one of the first things a say to myself is "i wonder what zealously thinks about this issue". so its a big loss for TL.
TL.net is supposed to be the hub of the Starcraft II community, and the prevalent attitude here is that Starcraft II and its scene sucks.
I think that is a mis-perception. Albeit, one with harmful effects especially to those not acquainted with the community. A casual visitor to TL would get the impression that SC2 sucked, that everyone hated it, that Blizzard was shit and on and on and on. But in Strategy threads and in LR threads and in blogs you still get the sense of people who like SC2 and want to talk about it with like-minded people. Basically, a lot of us go about our business of enjoying our game and get on with it.
I see the whiners representing a small part of the TL community, and the TL community itself representing a small part of the overall SC2 community (and it is a big one - a lot of people just play without having to lurk and/or post in forums). It's best not to take the bile from a small part of the TL community overly seriously. You might even want to feel sorry for them. Miserable morons, hating a game so much and yet being unable to leave it. Pathetic, don't you think?
I don't think that is a mis-perception at all. If a casual observer would come to the forums and get the impression that SC2 sucked and Blizzard sucked then that's a pretty accurate perception. If the naysayers are a minority, they're an extremely vocal minority and it doesn't really matter how many people like something in a forum when 2/3 of posts are negative. A large part of the problem is that those bashing the game are so fantastically adamant that the game sucks and they're not culled. The mods are extremely lenient with a lot of stuff which is, in my opinion, the biggest problem. I don't know if I'd like the forums if they were harsher in moderation, but I think that the way they mod is why there is this specific problem right now.
Understand too, that a lot of people who enjoy SC2 don't play it anymore. I don't see any reason why I'd go into the strategy section of the forums if I don't play SC2 right now. I enjoy the game, I enjoyed playing the game, but I simply burned myself out on playing it and now I'd rather watch games and read/talk about the aspects of the game that interest me. Reading a thread about a match and seeing "oh what, those banelings wouldn't have done nearly as much if the game was optimized like Brood War. What the fuck is blizzard doing? They're terrible at making and balancing games." and then that chucklehead's 5 buddies coming in and parroting his sentiments is pretty off-putting for a guy like me. The strategy section of the forums has nothing for me at this time, if that's where true fans are relegated to going to not be bombarded by the nonsensical hate then TL.net doesn't really have anything for a guy like me.
It is a minority, and probably not even a large one, the last TL survey stated that some 80% of the TL userbase are sc2 players (and nobody should believe that many of them only come here to complain about the game they're interested about,that's preposterous) I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience
On January 23 2014 23:47 Nebuchad wrote: Everyone is biased plogamer, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Celestial is just showing poor argumentative skills.
If you're trying to say that being biased is the same thing as whining, then you're just as wrong as he is. I can go fetch some of ghanburighan's posts when he was a prime member of the antiwhine police during the beginning of HotS, and compare them to his posts today; you could clearly see a shift. Except Ghan doesn't go out of his way to make sure my TL experience is ruined.
That Zealously unfairly paints Terran concerns as whines. No doubt there are unreasonable concerns, which would fall under the category of "whine" I suppose. But to lambast anyone who raises a voice over oracles or warp tech?
I didn't have to go digging (through a span of beginning of HotS to current, like you seem to suggest) for the posts I showed above. They were right there on today's Code A LR thread, within a couple of pages. When presented with numbers for why Terrans are complaining about Protoss over Zerg, Celestial closes his/her ears and leaves with insult for Ghan; going as far as removing valid content Ghan's post. That's not just argumentative skill at work here.
I wanted to highlight that questionable, biased posts, come from everyone. As you say, everyone is biased. My concern is merely the portrayal of this biased whining and how it is being lapped up by the Protoss congregation here.
PS. Calling it "poor argumentative skills" is rather apologetic.
There's a not so thin line, a giant chasm between civil balance discussion (which should be left in the "designated balance thread" anyways) like "i think that perhaps the Oracle is overpowered" and something like that as opposed as the comments you routinely see some players post (even zergs), like "Toss requires no micro" "Toss macro so easy" or
Good choice, protoss is easier.
Tell me these ain't shitposts, and there are plenty of them.
If you read between the lines of the average terran whiner post it really looks like the old 2010 argument "terran is OP because it wins too much and it's impossible than every terran player is a better RTS player" became "terran is UP and they still win as much as the other races (or more) because every terran player is a better RTS player" which is of course ridiculous to say the least.
I don't know what numbers you're talking about, because every number i see (no, i'm not talking about David Kim's, which are probably accurate anyways) suggest a very good balance, and even if there was a slight imbalance it's nowhere near the Sad Zealot numbers when people were having an hard time naming tournament wins rather than losses (and also counting consecutive GSLs without protoss players in the ro4) or 2010 Terran dominance when the zergs were (rightly so) whining like crazy
TL;DR; i totally agree with Zealously and i'd wish the shitposts were a little more moderated, especially those that fill their mouth with fake BW knowledge they don't even possess or try to downplay the other players skill in order to glorify their ego. It also feels like Sc2 is the more loosely moderated section as usually posts bashing other games in their section (try and look at the LoL one) are swiftly moderated. Btw congrats on becoming banling
Ps. perhaps this post looks as if i was bashing other communities or terran players, if so it's mostly unintentional but i'm really really soured and frustrated by reading baseless complaints and ridiculous claims, sometimes TL feels like a Twitch chat (btw i played Bw , although i do dislike LoL )
On January 24 2014 01:04 Skirmjan wrote: I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience
I only read through this thread very briefly, is this really the consensus?
On January 24 2014 01:04 Skirmjan wrote: I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience
I only read through this thread very briefly, is this really the consensus?
I really don't think LoL players are watching starcraft matches and calling the results bullshit in LR threads.
TL.net is supposed to be the hub of the Starcraft II community, and the prevalent attitude here is that Starcraft II and its scene sucks.
I think that is a mis-perception. Albeit, one with harmful effects especially to those not acquainted with the community. A casual visitor to TL would get the impression that SC2 sucked, that everyone hated it, that Blizzard was shit and on and on and on. But in Strategy threads and in LR threads and in blogs you still get the sense of people who like SC2 and want to talk about it with like-minded people. Basically, a lot of us go about our business of enjoying our game and get on with it.
I see the whiners representing a small part of the TL community, and the TL community itself representing a small part of the overall SC2 community (and it is a big one - a lot of people just play without having to lurk and/or post in forums). It's best not to take the bile from a small part of the TL community overly seriously. You might even want to feel sorry for them. Miserable morons, hating a game so much and yet being unable to leave it. Pathetic, don't you think?
I don't think that is a mis-perception at all. If a casual observer would come to the forums and get the impression that SC2 sucked and Blizzard sucked then that's a pretty accurate perception. If the naysayers are a minority, they're an extremely vocal minority and it doesn't really matter how many people like something in a forum when 2/3 of posts are negative. A large part of the problem is that those bashing the game are so fantastically adamant that the game sucks and they're not culled. The mods are extremely lenient with a lot of stuff which is, in my opinion, the biggest problem. I don't know if I'd like the forums if they were harsher in moderation, but I think that the way they mod is why there is this specific problem right now.
Understand too, that a lot of people who enjoy SC2 don't play it anymore. I don't see any reason why I'd go into the strategy section of the forums if I don't play SC2 right now. I enjoy the game, I enjoyed playing the game, but I simply burned myself out on playing it and now I'd rather watch games and read/talk about the aspects of the game that interest me. Reading a thread about a match and seeing "oh what, those banelings wouldn't have done nearly as much if the game was optimized like Brood War. What the fuck is blizzard doing? They're terrible at making and balancing games." and then that chucklehead's 5 buddies coming in and parroting his sentiments is pretty off-putting for a guy like me. The strategy section of the forums has nothing for me at this time, if that's where true fans are relegated to going to not be bombarded by the nonsensical hate then TL.net doesn't really have anything for a guy like me.
It is a minority, and probably not even a large one, the last TL survey stated that some 80% of the TL userbase are sc2 players (and nobody should believe that many of them only come here to complain about the game they're interested about,that's preposterous) I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience
On January 23 2014 23:47 Nebuchad wrote: Everyone is biased plogamer, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Celestial is just showing poor argumentative skills.
If you're trying to say that being biased is the same thing as whining, then you're just as wrong as he is. I can go fetch some of ghanburighan's posts when he was a prime member of the antiwhine police during the beginning of HotS, and compare them to his posts today; you could clearly see a shift. Except Ghan doesn't go out of his way to make sure my TL experience is ruined.
That Zealously unfairly paints Terran concerns as whines. No doubt there are unreasonable concerns, which would fall under the category of "whine" I suppose. But to lambast anyone who raises a voice over oracles or warp tech?
I didn't have to go digging (through a span of beginning of HotS to current, like you seem to suggest) for the posts I showed above. They were right there on today's Code A LR thread, within a couple of pages. When presented with numbers for why Terrans are complaining about Protoss over Zerg, Celestial closes his/her ears and leaves with insult for Ghan; going as far as removing valid content Ghan's post. That's not just argumentative skill at work here.
I wanted to highlight that questionable, biased posts, come from everyone. As you say, everyone is biased. My concern is merely the portrayal of this biased whining and how it is being lapped up by the Protoss congregation here.
PS. Calling it "poor argumentative skills" is rather apologetic.
There's a not so thin line, a giant chasm between civil balance discussion (which should be left in the "designated balance thread" anyways) like "i think that perhaps the Oracle is overpowered" and something like that as opposed as the comments you routinely see some players post (even zergs), like "Toss requires no micro" "Toss macro so easy" or
Tell me these ain't shitposts, and there are plenty of them.
If you read between the lines of the average terran whiner post it really looks like the old 2010 argument "terran is OP because it wins too much and it's impossible than every terran player is a better RTS player" became "terran is UP and they still win as much as the other races (or more) because every terran player is a better RTS player" which is of course ridiculous to say the least.
I don't know what numbers you're talking about, because every number i see (no, i'm not talking about David Kim's, which are probably accurate anyways) suggest a very good balance, and even if there was a slight imbalance it's nowhere near the Sad Zealot numbers when people were having an hard time naming tournament wins rather than losses (and also counting consecutive GSLs without protoss players in the ro4) or 2010 Terran dominance when the zergs were (rightly so) whining like crazy
TL;DR; i totally agree with Zealously and i'd wish the shitposts were a little more moderated, especially those that fill their mouth with fake BW knowledge they don't even possess or try to downplay the other players skill in order to glorify their ego. It also feels like Sc2 is the more loosely moderated section as usually posts bashing other games in their section (try and look at the LoL one) are swiftly moderated. Btw congrats on becoming banling
Ps. perhaps this post looks as if i was bashing other communities or terran players, if so it's mostly unintentional but i'm really really soured and frustrated by reading baseless complaints and ridiculous claims, sometimes TL feels like a Twitch chat (btw i played Bw , although i do dislike LoL )
What you highlighted are absolutely shitposts! But like Zealously, your focus is intent on Terrans. A featured blog that takes a such a narrow angle can be misappropriated - and it is equally frustrating to see people call someone "whiner" or treat their posts as "crying" for reasonable posts.
The numbers were in the context of the quoted texts referred to the win-rate for TvP in Code A as opposed to TvZ; and why Terrans are complaining (both reasonable and unreasonable complaints, unreasonable ones we can call "whining") about Protoss and not Zergs.
The dude does make a point , I'm not ashamed to say I was got into an argument with him once , but he made a good point and I took it well , and in the end random lol guy turned out be a great caster
but seriously , TL is a toxic community that likes to bitch and whine ? please don't make me laugh XD , this is nothing , welcome to the internet.
I will give you some friendly advice my man , and I'm not trolling I actually mean it , I think you heard of a game called "heroes of newerth" , download that game , play for a month while browsing through the forums and posting there a bit , TL - as it stands now - will look like heaven after that.....and that is only if you can survive the hellish amount of trolling , racism , degraded references to your parents , your own sexuality , your status when it comes beastiality , the balance whine and dont forget to apply all the above on people like maliken,dogkaiser and wza ( these people are the HoN equivalent of dustin browder and david kim ) and last but not least , posts from individuals telling the community that they are sick of them and will leave....the toxicity levels are so high there , s2 created a new game centered around cloning LoL and never repeating that community again , does this sound like TL to you ?
If you need a break , its ok dude nobody has the right to judge you , I wish you the best and hopefully you will come back.
On January 23 2014 04:21 vOdToasT wrote: I'm going to take a look at the SC2 section to see what this is all about
This will be interesting
Hmm, I would have never even thought about this, as I spend about 99% of my time in BW or Sports, and from those areas TL is as good as an internet forum gets.
Unlike what I hear from this post about sc2 section the BW section is the opposite. Even if I lost some interest in the game I would never leave because of the community there. Aside from the occasional close quarters induced drama it's almost 100% postitive, constructive content. Which in my experience is part of why BW fans have such fanatical loyalty and love of the game.
A part of the bad experience of SC2 forums is actually a lot of BW fans frequently bashing SC2 in the SC2 section. If nothing else, it adds to the "ded gaem" and balance whining crowd. Unfortunately I'm dead serious.
We could all be so happy if we just enjoyed what we want, without telling others what they have to enjoy
My pet peeve are people bringing up how great BW was... and then they never post in any BW LR thread or do anything BW-related. It's just regurgitating arguments they've heard elsewhere.
The term for them is BW hipster. Never watched BW and doesn't follow the scene, but will happy tell you how the game is superior to SC2.
Hahaha, it never gets old hearing people talk about why BW is better than SC2, and clearly being clueless.
My personal favourite: "BW didn't have death balls because you could only select 12 units at a time" (they always use past tense).
As if the difference between 1a and 1a2a3a is that great. So stupid. -.- Also, there are viable strategies that revolve around keeping as many of your units as possible together, in a "death ball". I'm tired of these silly hipsters.
Sometimes I get the urge to write an in depth post about the design choices in SC:BW that I really like and why I think it is such a good game, but then I envision the kinds of replies I'd get to such an effort (preaching to the choir or upsetting SC2 fans who hate any mention that BW isn't dead).
What we used to call death balls in BW were not at all similar to what's called a deathball in SC2 though. It's not a fair comparison at all. The Terran ball in BW was a marine medic tank vessel composition that was difficult to break for Zerg without a strong flank. But the ball didn't literally take the shape of a ball lol. It wasn't controlled the same way either, and it isn't optimal to actually just put everything in the ball. The thing BW does very well is having multiple points of interest and terrain that matters (because units will get stuck on it and so there are directions where it is too your disadvantage to attack from).
What BW actually had were lines of death (at least that's what my brother and I called them in 1999)... Because if you don't control your units and just send them point a to point b, they will legit just form this really stupid parade that is extremely vulnerable to attack. It punished you for 1a2a3a4a, and people underestimate a little how much posturing they're really doing and that the top players are doing to make their units attack in a strong formation. PvP it's more like 1click2click3click4click to set up a good aggregate of attack and THEN 1a2a3a4a + more posturing as the battle goes on, evaluating the strength of your flanks, letting your strong side keep fighting while you pull the weak back (and if your opponent is good, adjustments have to be made throughout the entire battle).
I think people make a lot of lazy arguments (in part because they have already been made more thoroughly 100x over), but dismissing it as people being BW hipsters is somehow even lazier, and satisfies only the desire to be spiteful of another human being.
For why SC2 is such an interesting and good game, that's going to be up to someone who likes SC2 to write up. Ideally without any direct comparisons to BW and other games, only making an effort to bring up things that are unique to SC2 that make it interesting to watch and play. Potentially a good argument can be made, but all people ever seem to do is say it's good without ever substantiating their claims, so there are no points on which to question them. IMO a post like this would be infinitely more effective than Zealousy's previous wimpy effort By comparison, actually a lot of effort has been made by pros to fully explain their misgivings about the game, in as objective a manner as they can, which is why the game has such a negative image with so many users.
tl;dr: education is almost always the answer There will always be some people who are wrong on the internet, but TL is an isolated community where you can easily raise awareness of particular ideas. If Zealousy is half as popular as some of the replies in this blog make him out to be, he has the platform and the power to effect the changes he desires. I had never heard of him before his last blog, but if SC2 readers actually wonder what he thinks about a topic, he's got a lot of room to work with and it deserves a better effort.
i definitely appreciate your passion zealously, but I feel you miss out on why people actually feel. There are people here(and I assume quiet a bit of them) who supported this game for over a decade and took active part in the community and promoting it. And to be fair, decade or even the 3 years since SC2 came out, what's the difference, that's a long time. The point is when you support something like this, it's okay being this passionate, it's okay to harbor negative feelings towards someone who displayed complete inability to balance the game like David Kim and is still in charge. 3+ years is a long term relationship, and you can't expect anyone to be objective.
In the end the details don't even matter. If you watch SC2 lose ground to LoL, Dota and now even Hearthstone day after day you don't have to know why things have to change or how the balance should be addressed. But something is clearly wrong and something clearly had to be changed long time ago.
Sorry to see you go. Honestly I agree with basically everything you said. I love the site here, but people just complain soooo much that it takes all the fun out of the actual game. It's disappointing because truly extraordinary performances are waved away with "op protoss". Then again the same thing happened at the end of WoL with Zerg, and all during GomTvT (although I feel that there was a bit less of a backlash when Terrans were dominant but I digress) I guess we as a community can't just enjoy the game and worry about the rest of this another time.
EPT
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Someone decided to give you the power to actually do something with all the troll posts? 
