• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:00
CEST 00:00
KST 07:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE4Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b4IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"7ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!40
StarCraft 2
General
Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b Terran or Protoss 3kb/s downloading patch..... are we back to 1998? Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL22 General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament Star Con San Diego 2026 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8358 users

United we stand, divided we fall

Blogs > 4rChon
Post a Reply
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:30 GMT
#1
I'm just going to pour some idle thoughts into here. Do not expect anything to make sense. Do not expect to gain wisdom. This is just me flushing my brain.

As I type this I'm watching Bisu play an awesome Brood War PvZ. He's controlling two forces at the same time: The main force consisting of Archons, Zealots, Dragoons, and High Templar; the second force consisting of a Shuttle holding two High Templar and an escort of Corsairs.

The Zerg is holding by the skin of his teeth through clever placement of Lurkers and Dark Swarm, along with the occasional plague. Meanwhile in a different corner of the map Scourge and Corsairs are dancing, showcasing both players' mechanical capabilities.

Bisu's forces rally in the center taking map control cutting the Zerg's supply lines and securing his own double mineral base. Both players are on at least 5 bases. Both players have fought more than once. Even now a group of Zealots assaults a lonely Hatchery as the main force takes out another Zerg mining base. Each assault requires preparation, rallying the troops in an attacking formation, then ordering them to attack a certain location.

Each battle takes more than 10 seconds with each player fighting for efficiency. Both armies seem evenly matched, constantly maxed.

Enter SC2. Deathballs seem to be the biggest complaint. Players turtle until their ultimate army. They gather at the center of the map and exchange lasers for 5 seconds until the player who fired more lasers wins. That's the gross oversimplification critics seem to make.

With all the Starbow talk I decided to play a couple of games. My last game was a PvT. I expected the usual Terran mech, with Siege Tanks, Goliaths, and Vulture runby's, not ignoring a map littered with mines of course. I opened up with a Reaver drop, taking out at least 5 SCVs and equalizing the worker count. Another Reaver drop followed in which multiple Terran units were brutally murdered. Then the game proceeded to enter into a 5 vs 5+ base campaign mission in which all I did was try and deflect Vultures, taking out mines and keeping up my unit count as the opponent slowly crept closer with his Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths. I (over)made some Arbiters to try and Stasis the Tanks when I attack them and my opponent responded with Science Vessels. To my dismay I realised too late that Stasis has a channelling aspect in Starbow and Goliaths tore them to shreds, nullifying the value of my Arbiters. Needless to say I was horribly smashed to bits as I had nowhere near the required strategic mind to think of recalling a ball of units into the enemy base.

Now I think back on the match, comparing BW, Starbow, and SC2. I wanted to come up with my own solution for breaking deathballs. None of that 'make all units faster' business. None of that 'make all units retarded' business either.

Blizzard's solution seemed to be to make fast units that work better on their own, such as the Reaper rework, Oracle, Medivac boost, proposed burrowed roach speed boost, etc. Starbow's solution seemed to be to rely on the innate design of the units borrowed from BW as well as the inefficient worker mining to force players to control different points of the map at the same time. In my experience both solutions have failed.

Before I write why, I first want to reason out why players would prefer a deathball over spreading units out in SC2:

1) It's easier to control.

2) The more units in your ball, the more damage it deals, obviously.
It is better to attack at one place with all your units than to attack at multiple locations with different groups since you are more likely to break the location you are attacking. The only reason to attack another location is to pull the enemy army away from your actual target or to force your opponent's attention between multiple points.

3) Spreading your army creates vulnerable points which your opponent can exploit with his ball, enabling him to take out your army bit by bit rather than a single fight taking everything out. Games where one player decides to split his army have a higher chance of ending in a base race.

4) Harassment specialists take away from the army supply, reducing the overall army strength.

Why do I think that SC2 and Starbow failed to address the deathball?
SC2's solution still leaves the core units forced to move in a ball. Everything else is harassment. Engaging in a fight rarely leaves room for retreat unless special abilities are used.

Starbow's solution emphasises the defender's advantage coupled with a different economy. A defended area requires more opposing units to break. At first glance this isn't a bad solution, it's how it should be. Defender's advantage should be part of a strategy game. But it doesn't solve the deathball. It will only lead to long macro games where each player greedily rushes to his dream composition, defending his bases with the bare minimum as he harasses the opponent with whatever fast units he can make. This will still lead to an eventual climax where both players decide to move out with their army and exchange damage. The players will never take units away from their main force unless they intend to stall for an eventual push.

I'm assuming the hope was for players to contest new expansions. This doesn't solve deathballs on large maps, or turtling. The games will be 30 minutes long with both players sending out their harassment units until they're maxed.

What breaks the deathball?
The Roman army had multiple levels of units. After the Marian reforms, a Roman legion consisted of 10 cohorts. A cohort consisted of 6 centuries. A century consisted of 10 contubernium, the smallest tactical unit. The contubernium consistead of 10 men, one of them the chief of the contubernium. In total a legion consisted of 600 of these units, each unit with its own leader. Each unit able to act on its own.

Now imagine having only one commander and no structure. The first thing one should realize is that units would be a lot more single minded. Another thing would be that it would be impossible for all the troops to be coordinated. More troops does not mean stronger army. It means worse organization, less efficiency, more food wasted, more wages paid.

In SC2 and Starbow, armies do not lose efficiency as they grow, they gain efficiency. 24 void rays can kill more units per void ray than 1 void ray would.

In BW, a bigger army did not necessarily mean a better army. Having 24 mutasis not as much better than 12 as having 12 is than 6. It's more difficult to control 24 mutas, more difficult to retreat in case of a failed attack, and more difficult to advance with good organization. It's easier to micro 12 mutas than it is to micro 24 mutas. It takes more time for an army of ground units to take an offensive position hence it's more efficient to just send small chunks of that army to be more efficient on their own since they are easier to control. In SC2, this is not true.

What does this mean?
My opinion is that limited unit selection is the only thing that can reliably break a deathball. Defender's advantage is automatically granted to the player whose units are already positioned well.

I'm just gonna trail off here since I'm very sleepy but I hope what I said makes sense, and if not, I look forward to the rebuttals.





***
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 19:49 GMT
#2
Well, forced spreading reduces the amount of units that can contribute to a combat at any given time, which in turn leads to smaller armies matching the efficiency but not the longevity of larger armies.

Which would at least contribute to the "breaking the deathball" thing.

If thats good or not or if starbow is good is not something I'm going to comment on here.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:55 GMT
#3
Spreading is only forced when units are not moving. It does not affect units that are being moved or that are attacking.
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 20:01 GMT
#4
I'd assume that could be rectified in some manner.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 20:13 GMT
#5
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you to mean Starbow's forced spreading. Yes I think that can be another solution. I haven't thought it through, it seems to be more of a dirty solution, like the mining efficiency one. By dirty I mean that it relies too much on very specific tweaking of values rather than a clean clear cut solution. It affects splash dealing units such as Siege Tanks and Archons and it might make pathing very unsightly. Players will still find it easier to just grab their army and a-move too. With units like Colossi and air units in general, seperation would likely have unwanted side effects.

Speaking of Colossi and air units, I feel the same way about long range units, in that lower range should help with breaking the deathball since similar to your suggestion of forced spreading, less units are able to engage at the same time.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
January 17 2014 00:14 GMT
#6
I like you OP, you bring up interesting points and I believe that you're right about most things. Unfortunately, short of making the AI worse or limiting unit selection (which IMO is not going to happen), odds are SC2 won't turn out to be quite as dynamic as its predecessor.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 17 2014 02:16 GMT
#7
Its a very war3-esque design choice without the economic penalties. More than anything I think they tried to bring out the best in both BW and War3 but failed to realize that the implemented drawbacks were just as important, like too much of a good thing doesn't mean a great thing.

Get it by your hands...
_-NoMaN-_
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada250 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 01:25:09
January 18 2014 01:19 GMT
#8
I always assumed things like limited unit selection and spell-caster stacking mechanics were a conscious design choice in BW. Mapping out hot-keys was a strategy in itself; you had to use them all to be efficient, which forced strategic choices.

When I first got SC2, I was thrilled to discover the new features such as auto-mine, unlimited unit selection, etc. Hardly inclined to acknowledge the long term strategic ramifications of these design choices, I was just happy to be able to spam a few hot-keys, build up my army, and go fight.

Therein, however, lies the problem. We know what we want, but we don't necessarily know whats 'good'. When blizzard made the game they thought (i assume) we wanted them to make, they relegated their product to the same category as the shameless prequels/sequels/remakes of hollywood.

To create anything of cultural value is to make what you want to make, not what you think others want to buy. Anything else is just straight economics. It's what you get from Capitalist Culture, such as it is. Congratulations, us*.

* pun intended

Edited for grammar (and puns).
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech91
CosmosSc2 21
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2299
Larva 149
NaDa 48
Dota 2
syndereN419
Pyrionflax226
Counter-Strike
summit1g5798
minikerr24
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King150
hungrybox107
PPMD35
Other Games
tarik_tv5069
Grubby3523
shahzam506
ToD263
UpATreeSC203
C9.Mang0186
B2W.Neo165
Liquid`Hasu142
JuggernautJason120
Livibee56
Trikslyr26
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV171
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 74
• musti20045 42
• RyuSc2 27
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21160
League of Legends
• TFBlade1073
Other Games
• imaqtpie1663
• Scarra659
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h
The PondCast
12h
Kung Fu Cup
13h
Patches Events
18h
Replay Cast
1d 11h
CrankTV Team League
1d 13h
OSC
1d 15h
OSC
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
2 days
OSC
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-27
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
Proleague 2026-07-28
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
Escore Tournament S3: W8
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.