• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:15
CET 15:15
KST 23:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA14
StarCraft 2
General
SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? Data analysis on 70 million replays soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1926 users

United we stand, divided we fall

Blogs > 4rChon
Post a Reply
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:30 GMT
#1
I'm just going to pour some idle thoughts into here. Do not expect anything to make sense. Do not expect to gain wisdom. This is just me flushing my brain.

As I type this I'm watching Bisu play an awesome Brood War PvZ. He's controlling two forces at the same time: The main force consisting of Archons, Zealots, Dragoons, and High Templar; the second force consisting of a Shuttle holding two High Templar and an escort of Corsairs.

The Zerg is holding by the skin of his teeth through clever placement of Lurkers and Dark Swarm, along with the occasional plague. Meanwhile in a different corner of the map Scourge and Corsairs are dancing, showcasing both players' mechanical capabilities.

Bisu's forces rally in the center taking map control cutting the Zerg's supply lines and securing his own double mineral base. Both players are on at least 5 bases. Both players have fought more than once. Even now a group of Zealots assaults a lonely Hatchery as the main force takes out another Zerg mining base. Each assault requires preparation, rallying the troops in an attacking formation, then ordering them to attack a certain location.

Each battle takes more than 10 seconds with each player fighting for efficiency. Both armies seem evenly matched, constantly maxed.

Enter SC2. Deathballs seem to be the biggest complaint. Players turtle until their ultimate army. They gather at the center of the map and exchange lasers for 5 seconds until the player who fired more lasers wins. That's the gross oversimplification critics seem to make.

With all the Starbow talk I decided to play a couple of games. My last game was a PvT. I expected the usual Terran mech, with Siege Tanks, Goliaths, and Vulture runby's, not ignoring a map littered with mines of course. I opened up with a Reaver drop, taking out at least 5 SCVs and equalizing the worker count. Another Reaver drop followed in which multiple Terran units were brutally murdered. Then the game proceeded to enter into a 5 vs 5+ base campaign mission in which all I did was try and deflect Vultures, taking out mines and keeping up my unit count as the opponent slowly crept closer with his Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths. I (over)made some Arbiters to try and Stasis the Tanks when I attack them and my opponent responded with Science Vessels. To my dismay I realised too late that Stasis has a channelling aspect in Starbow and Goliaths tore them to shreds, nullifying the value of my Arbiters. Needless to say I was horribly smashed to bits as I had nowhere near the required strategic mind to think of recalling a ball of units into the enemy base.

Now I think back on the match, comparing BW, Starbow, and SC2. I wanted to come up with my own solution for breaking deathballs. None of that 'make all units faster' business. None of that 'make all units retarded' business either.

Blizzard's solution seemed to be to make fast units that work better on their own, such as the Reaper rework, Oracle, Medivac boost, proposed burrowed roach speed boost, etc. Starbow's solution seemed to be to rely on the innate design of the units borrowed from BW as well as the inefficient worker mining to force players to control different points of the map at the same time. In my experience both solutions have failed.

Before I write why, I first want to reason out why players would prefer a deathball over spreading units out in SC2:

1) It's easier to control.

2) The more units in your ball, the more damage it deals, obviously.
It is better to attack at one place with all your units than to attack at multiple locations with different groups since you are more likely to break the location you are attacking. The only reason to attack another location is to pull the enemy army away from your actual target or to force your opponent's attention between multiple points.

3) Spreading your army creates vulnerable points which your opponent can exploit with his ball, enabling him to take out your army bit by bit rather than a single fight taking everything out. Games where one player decides to split his army have a higher chance of ending in a base race.

4) Harassment specialists take away from the army supply, reducing the overall army strength.

Why do I think that SC2 and Starbow failed to address the deathball?
SC2's solution still leaves the core units forced to move in a ball. Everything else is harassment. Engaging in a fight rarely leaves room for retreat unless special abilities are used.

Starbow's solution emphasises the defender's advantage coupled with a different economy. A defended area requires more opposing units to break. At first glance this isn't a bad solution, it's how it should be. Defender's advantage should be part of a strategy game. But it doesn't solve the deathball. It will only lead to long macro games where each player greedily rushes to his dream composition, defending his bases with the bare minimum as he harasses the opponent with whatever fast units he can make. This will still lead to an eventual climax where both players decide to move out with their army and exchange damage. The players will never take units away from their main force unless they intend to stall for an eventual push.

I'm assuming the hope was for players to contest new expansions. This doesn't solve deathballs on large maps, or turtling. The games will be 30 minutes long with both players sending out their harassment units until they're maxed.

What breaks the deathball?
The Roman army had multiple levels of units. After the Marian reforms, a Roman legion consisted of 10 cohorts. A cohort consisted of 6 centuries. A century consisted of 10 contubernium, the smallest tactical unit. The contubernium consistead of 10 men, one of them the chief of the contubernium. In total a legion consisted of 600 of these units, each unit with its own leader. Each unit able to act on its own.

Now imagine having only one commander and no structure. The first thing one should realize is that units would be a lot more single minded. Another thing would be that it would be impossible for all the troops to be coordinated. More troops does not mean stronger army. It means worse organization, less efficiency, more food wasted, more wages paid.

In SC2 and Starbow, armies do not lose efficiency as they grow, they gain efficiency. 24 void rays can kill more units per void ray than 1 void ray would.

In BW, a bigger army did not necessarily mean a better army. Having 24 mutasis not as much better than 12 as having 12 is than 6. It's more difficult to control 24 mutas, more difficult to retreat in case of a failed attack, and more difficult to advance with good organization. It's easier to micro 12 mutas than it is to micro 24 mutas. It takes more time for an army of ground units to take an offensive position hence it's more efficient to just send small chunks of that army to be more efficient on their own since they are easier to control. In SC2, this is not true.

What does this mean?
My opinion is that limited unit selection is the only thing that can reliably break a deathball. Defender's advantage is automatically granted to the player whose units are already positioned well.

I'm just gonna trail off here since I'm very sleepy but I hope what I said makes sense, and if not, I look forward to the rebuttals.





***
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 19:49 GMT
#2
Well, forced spreading reduces the amount of units that can contribute to a combat at any given time, which in turn leads to smaller armies matching the efficiency but not the longevity of larger armies.

Which would at least contribute to the "breaking the deathball" thing.

If thats good or not or if starbow is good is not something I'm going to comment on here.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:55 GMT
#3
Spreading is only forced when units are not moving. It does not affect units that are being moved or that are attacking.
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 20:01 GMT
#4
I'd assume that could be rectified in some manner.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 20:13 GMT
#5
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you to mean Starbow's forced spreading. Yes I think that can be another solution. I haven't thought it through, it seems to be more of a dirty solution, like the mining efficiency one. By dirty I mean that it relies too much on very specific tweaking of values rather than a clean clear cut solution. It affects splash dealing units such as Siege Tanks and Archons and it might make pathing very unsightly. Players will still find it easier to just grab their army and a-move too. With units like Colossi and air units in general, seperation would likely have unwanted side effects.

Speaking of Colossi and air units, I feel the same way about long range units, in that lower range should help with breaking the deathball since similar to your suggestion of forced spreading, less units are able to engage at the same time.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
January 17 2014 00:14 GMT
#6
I like you OP, you bring up interesting points and I believe that you're right about most things. Unfortunately, short of making the AI worse or limiting unit selection (which IMO is not going to happen), odds are SC2 won't turn out to be quite as dynamic as its predecessor.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 17 2014 02:16 GMT
#7
Its a very war3-esque design choice without the economic penalties. More than anything I think they tried to bring out the best in both BW and War3 but failed to realize that the implemented drawbacks were just as important, like too much of a good thing doesn't mean a great thing.

Get it by your hands...
_-NoMaN-_
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada250 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 01:25:09
January 18 2014 01:19 GMT
#8
I always assumed things like limited unit selection and spell-caster stacking mechanics were a conscious design choice in BW. Mapping out hot-keys was a strategy in itself; you had to use them all to be efficient, which forced strategic choices.

When I first got SC2, I was thrilled to discover the new features such as auto-mine, unlimited unit selection, etc. Hardly inclined to acknowledge the long term strategic ramifications of these design choices, I was just happy to be able to spam a few hot-keys, build up my army, and go fight.

Therein, however, lies the problem. We know what we want, but we don't necessarily know whats 'good'. When blizzard made the game they thought (i assume) we wanted them to make, they relegated their product to the same category as the shameless prequels/sequels/remakes of hollywood.

To create anything of cultural value is to make what you want to make, not what you think others want to buy. Anything else is just straight economics. It's what you get from Capitalist Culture, such as it is. Congratulations, us*.

* pun intended

Edited for grammar (and puns).
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
14:00
Bonus Weekend Qualifier
WardiTV267
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 327
trigger 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 9524
Sea 8672
Calm 7398
Horang2 2967
GuemChi 1475
Mini 734
Stork 567
firebathero 495
BeSt 494
Pusan 379
[ Show more ]
PianO 210
Larva 202
Leta 195
Light 152
Last 97
hero 96
Barracks 57
Killer 52
ToSsGirL 47
Backho 45
JulyZerg 45
Sea.KH 38
Sharp 33
soO 28
Terrorterran 23
SilentControl 22
Noble 17
yabsab 15
Hm[arnc] 15
scan(afreeca) 13
Sacsri 11
HiyA 9
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Bale 7
Shine 7
Britney 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7959
singsing1910
qojqva1321
Dendi878
XcaliburYe171
League of Legends
Reynor82
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1251
allub237
oskar161
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor294
Other Games
B2W.Neo2570
crisheroes504
Fuzer 320
Hui .232
Pyrionflax215
KnowMe26
Dewaltoss19
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream31925
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 1307
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 12
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH172
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2290
• WagamamaTV365
League of Legends
• Nemesis1916
Upcoming Events
IPSL
5h 45m
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
5h 45m
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
OSC
8h 45m
OSC
18h 45m
Wardi Open
21h 45m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 2h
OSC
1d 8h
Wardi Open
1d 21h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LAN Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.