• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:45
CEST 02:45
KST 09:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202531Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder8EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced38BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Classic: "Serral is Like Hitting a Brick Wall" The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Serral wins EWC 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL] Non-Korean Championship - Final weekend [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 556 users

United we stand, divided we fall

Blogs > 4rChon
Post a Reply
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:30 GMT
#1
I'm just going to pour some idle thoughts into here. Do not expect anything to make sense. Do not expect to gain wisdom. This is just me flushing my brain.

As I type this I'm watching Bisu play an awesome Brood War PvZ. He's controlling two forces at the same time: The main force consisting of Archons, Zealots, Dragoons, and High Templar; the second force consisting of a Shuttle holding two High Templar and an escort of Corsairs.

The Zerg is holding by the skin of his teeth through clever placement of Lurkers and Dark Swarm, along with the occasional plague. Meanwhile in a different corner of the map Scourge and Corsairs are dancing, showcasing both players' mechanical capabilities.

Bisu's forces rally in the center taking map control cutting the Zerg's supply lines and securing his own double mineral base. Both players are on at least 5 bases. Both players have fought more than once. Even now a group of Zealots assaults a lonely Hatchery as the main force takes out another Zerg mining base. Each assault requires preparation, rallying the troops in an attacking formation, then ordering them to attack a certain location.

Each battle takes more than 10 seconds with each player fighting for efficiency. Both armies seem evenly matched, constantly maxed.

Enter SC2. Deathballs seem to be the biggest complaint. Players turtle until their ultimate army. They gather at the center of the map and exchange lasers for 5 seconds until the player who fired more lasers wins. That's the gross oversimplification critics seem to make.

With all the Starbow talk I decided to play a couple of games. My last game was a PvT. I expected the usual Terran mech, with Siege Tanks, Goliaths, and Vulture runby's, not ignoring a map littered with mines of course. I opened up with a Reaver drop, taking out at least 5 SCVs and equalizing the worker count. Another Reaver drop followed in which multiple Terran units were brutally murdered. Then the game proceeded to enter into a 5 vs 5+ base campaign mission in which all I did was try and deflect Vultures, taking out mines and keeping up my unit count as the opponent slowly crept closer with his Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths. I (over)made some Arbiters to try and Stasis the Tanks when I attack them and my opponent responded with Science Vessels. To my dismay I realised too late that Stasis has a channelling aspect in Starbow and Goliaths tore them to shreds, nullifying the value of my Arbiters. Needless to say I was horribly smashed to bits as I had nowhere near the required strategic mind to think of recalling a ball of units into the enemy base.

Now I think back on the match, comparing BW, Starbow, and SC2. I wanted to come up with my own solution for breaking deathballs. None of that 'make all units faster' business. None of that 'make all units retarded' business either.

Blizzard's solution seemed to be to make fast units that work better on their own, such as the Reaper rework, Oracle, Medivac boost, proposed burrowed roach speed boost, etc. Starbow's solution seemed to be to rely on the innate design of the units borrowed from BW as well as the inefficient worker mining to force players to control different points of the map at the same time. In my experience both solutions have failed.

Before I write why, I first want to reason out why players would prefer a deathball over spreading units out in SC2:

1) It's easier to control.

2) The more units in your ball, the more damage it deals, obviously.
It is better to attack at one place with all your units than to attack at multiple locations with different groups since you are more likely to break the location you are attacking. The only reason to attack another location is to pull the enemy army away from your actual target or to force your opponent's attention between multiple points.

3) Spreading your army creates vulnerable points which your opponent can exploit with his ball, enabling him to take out your army bit by bit rather than a single fight taking everything out. Games where one player decides to split his army have a higher chance of ending in a base race.

4) Harassment specialists take away from the army supply, reducing the overall army strength.

Why do I think that SC2 and Starbow failed to address the deathball?
SC2's solution still leaves the core units forced to move in a ball. Everything else is harassment. Engaging in a fight rarely leaves room for retreat unless special abilities are used.

Starbow's solution emphasises the defender's advantage coupled with a different economy. A defended area requires more opposing units to break. At first glance this isn't a bad solution, it's how it should be. Defender's advantage should be part of a strategy game. But it doesn't solve the deathball. It will only lead to long macro games where each player greedily rushes to his dream composition, defending his bases with the bare minimum as he harasses the opponent with whatever fast units he can make. This will still lead to an eventual climax where both players decide to move out with their army and exchange damage. The players will never take units away from their main force unless they intend to stall for an eventual push.

I'm assuming the hope was for players to contest new expansions. This doesn't solve deathballs on large maps, or turtling. The games will be 30 minutes long with both players sending out their harassment units until they're maxed.

What breaks the deathball?
The Roman army had multiple levels of units. After the Marian reforms, a Roman legion consisted of 10 cohorts. A cohort consisted of 6 centuries. A century consisted of 10 contubernium, the smallest tactical unit. The contubernium consistead of 10 men, one of them the chief of the contubernium. In total a legion consisted of 600 of these units, each unit with its own leader. Each unit able to act on its own.

Now imagine having only one commander and no structure. The first thing one should realize is that units would be a lot more single minded. Another thing would be that it would be impossible for all the troops to be coordinated. More troops does not mean stronger army. It means worse organization, less efficiency, more food wasted, more wages paid.

In SC2 and Starbow, armies do not lose efficiency as they grow, they gain efficiency. 24 void rays can kill more units per void ray than 1 void ray would.

In BW, a bigger army did not necessarily mean a better army. Having 24 mutasis not as much better than 12 as having 12 is than 6. It's more difficult to control 24 mutas, more difficult to retreat in case of a failed attack, and more difficult to advance with good organization. It's easier to micro 12 mutas than it is to micro 24 mutas. It takes more time for an army of ground units to take an offensive position hence it's more efficient to just send small chunks of that army to be more efficient on their own since they are easier to control. In SC2, this is not true.

What does this mean?
My opinion is that limited unit selection is the only thing that can reliably break a deathball. Defender's advantage is automatically granted to the player whose units are already positioned well.

I'm just gonna trail off here since I'm very sleepy but I hope what I said makes sense, and if not, I look forward to the rebuttals.





***
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 19:49 GMT
#2
Well, forced spreading reduces the amount of units that can contribute to a combat at any given time, which in turn leads to smaller armies matching the efficiency but not the longevity of larger armies.

Which would at least contribute to the "breaking the deathball" thing.

If thats good or not or if starbow is good is not something I'm going to comment on here.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 19:55 GMT
#3
Spreading is only forced when units are not moving. It does not affect units that are being moved or that are attacking.
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
January 16 2014 20:01 GMT
#4
I'd assume that could be rectified in some manner.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
4rChon
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
150 Posts
January 16 2014 20:13 GMT
#5
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you to mean Starbow's forced spreading. Yes I think that can be another solution. I haven't thought it through, it seems to be more of a dirty solution, like the mining efficiency one. By dirty I mean that it relies too much on very specific tweaking of values rather than a clean clear cut solution. It affects splash dealing units such as Siege Tanks and Archons and it might make pathing very unsightly. Players will still find it easier to just grab their army and a-move too. With units like Colossi and air units in general, seperation would likely have unwanted side effects.

Speaking of Colossi and air units, I feel the same way about long range units, in that lower range should help with breaking the deathball since similar to your suggestion of forced spreading, less units are able to engage at the same time.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
January 17 2014 00:14 GMT
#6
I like you OP, you bring up interesting points and I believe that you're right about most things. Unfortunately, short of making the AI worse or limiting unit selection (which IMO is not going to happen), odds are SC2 won't turn out to be quite as dynamic as its predecessor.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
January 17 2014 02:16 GMT
#7
Its a very war3-esque design choice without the economic penalties. More than anything I think they tried to bring out the best in both BW and War3 but failed to realize that the implemented drawbacks were just as important, like too much of a good thing doesn't mean a great thing.

Get it by your hands...
_-NoMaN-_
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada250 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 01:25:09
January 18 2014 01:19 GMT
#8
I always assumed things like limited unit selection and spell-caster stacking mechanics were a conscious design choice in BW. Mapping out hot-keys was a strategy in itself; you had to use them all to be efficient, which forced strategic choices.

When I first got SC2, I was thrilled to discover the new features such as auto-mine, unlimited unit selection, etc. Hardly inclined to acknowledge the long term strategic ramifications of these design choices, I was just happy to be able to spam a few hot-keys, build up my army, and go fight.

Therein, however, lies the problem. We know what we want, but we don't necessarily know whats 'good'. When blizzard made the game they thought (i assume) we wanted them to make, they relegated their product to the same category as the shameless prequels/sequels/remakes of hollywood.

To create anything of cultural value is to make what you want to make, not what you think others want to buy. Anything else is just straight economics. It's what you get from Capitalist Culture, such as it is. Congratulations, us*.

* pun intended

Edited for grammar (and puns).
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 15h 16m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 252
NeuroSwarm 100
Livibee 76
CosmosSc2 58
Vindicta 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 681
ggaemo 252
MaD[AoV]64
NaDa 61
Dota 2
capcasts468
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe138
Liquid`Ken15
Other Games
summit1g15592
shahzam1300
C9.Mang0228
ViBE162
Sick59
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta61
• Hupsaiya 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21837
League of Legends
• Doublelift7563
Other Games
• Scarra1500
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
15h 16m
MaNa vs NightPhoenix
ByuN vs YoungYakov
ShoWTimE vs Nicoract
Harstem vs ArT
Korean StarCraft League
1d 2h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 9h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 11h
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs TBD
WardiTV European League
1d 15h
Online Event
1d 17h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs TBD
WardiTV European League
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.