In March 2013, the City Council approved the Reusable Bag Ordinance, which seeks to reduce the likelihood that single-use plastic carryout bags will enter the environment and thereby improve the aesthetics of the City's beaches, parks, and other public spaces. The Ordinance prohibits the distribution of plastic carryout bags in commercial point of sale purchases within the City of Huntington Beach and establishes a 10 cent charge on the issuance of recyclable paper carryout bags at all grocery stores, supermarkets, drug stores, pharmacies, convenience stores, food marts and farmer's markets. Please see below for answers to the most common questions regarding the Reusable Bag Ordinance. Photo of reusable bag
When does the Reusable Bag Ordinance take effect?
Implementation of the Ordinance becomes official on Friday, November 1, 2013, and affected retail stores as described below are required to comply with the provisions of the Ordinance prohibiting the distribution of single-use plastic carryout bags. What stores must comply with the Reusable Bag Ordinance?
The following retail establishments located within the boundaries of the City of Huntington Beach that fall into any of the following categories:
The Reusable Bag Ordinance initiates a community-wide shift from the use of plastic and paper carryout bags and promotes the use of reusable bags for retail customers in Huntington Beach therefore protecting our beaches and oceans
Full-line, self-service retail: A store with gross annual sales of two million dollars ($2,000,000), or more, that sells a line of dry grocery, canned goods, or nonfood items and some perishable items (i.e. Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Target); Large Retail Store: A store of at least ten thousand (10,000) square feet of retail space that generates sales or use tax pursuant to the Reusable Bag Ordinance and has a licensed pharmacy; or Drug stores, pharmacies, supermarkets, grocery stores, convenience food stores, food marts, or other entities engaged in the retail sale of a limited line of goods that includes milk, bread, soda and snack foods, including those stores with a Type 20 or 21 license issued by the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (i.e. CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid, Albertsons, Ralphs, Vons, 7-11 and other convenience or liquor stores).
Earlier this year they were trying to ban the firepits at the beach as well, because of pollution etc. Which was shot down because it's a big tourist money maker, amongst other things.
Couple of thoughts immediately came to mind. Namely money being the bottom line. And who lobbied for this change (which I haven't researched into yet, but would wager that it was big businesses).
I would be interested to see the change in a year's time. All the pros and cons. I bet they are about the same if not worse.
In my experience, 90% of people I know save the grocery bags for little trash cans, or random usages. Which fits very fine in the recycle, reduce, reuse methodology we were all taught growing up. And still after then, it is disposed of into trash or recycle cans that everyone in the city has. There are even receptacles in front of almost every grocery store specifically designated for grocery bag recycle. One grocery store even has a couple benches out front made from entirely recycled grocery bags.
Stores are going to make more money off people who forget their bags or whatever. Or lines will be held up because people forgot them in the car.
Most importantly, People are not going to have the excess bags laying around their house anymore and are going to need to buy little trash bags to use for their little trash cans now. Ie; about the same amount of plastic waste and the charge is now on the consumer rather than the corporations. I think the whole thing is a fucking sham under disguise of helping the environment.
What do you guys think about stuff like this? Has anything like this happened in your city?
On November 13 2013 10:15 Roe wrote: fire pits are a tourist attraction? what kind of post-apocalyptic fetish is that
In orange county/southern california. Many people from inland areas make weekend trips etc here to the beach to have parties or birthdays etc. The firepits offer them a place to cook or be warm in the cold beach air into the night. Gathering around a fire is as old as time in terms of human bonding.
The concerns were first brought up from rich idiots who payed lots of money to buy expensive beach houses who don't like people coming here and trashing up their beach and having smoke billowing towards their homes all the time. They are fucking dumb for buying a house there and not expecting this imho. And these shitty people who come and trash the beach are a small cost compared to the money netted from those people coming here in the first place.
Side note, there was a riot here during the last US open which probably cost (guessing all overhead costs and damages) about 10-15 thousand dollars. This wasn't even a fraction of the money earned from all the tourists even for a couple hours. And people were making a huge deal about it, like they should ban the US open or just general bigotry towards 'non locals', '909ers', and 'IEers (inland empire)'. The ironic thing too, was that at least half of the people caught were from 714 area code, and a couple actually from HB itself.
On November 13 2013 10:20 LaNague wrote: plastic from coastal regions into the oceans is a huge problem.
You might laugh about it, but those plastic bags do a lot of harm.
I understand the huge problem of the plastic in the ocean and all the Great pacific garbage patch stuff etc. But this isn't going to do anything at all. It's just a way for big companies to deflect cost to consumers by making them pay 10c per bag, making them buy more expensive reusable bags, or charge them for small trash bags (as I mentioned most people use these bags for little trash cans).
On November 13 2013 10:23 Juliette wrote: as a resident of the area banning firepits is so dumb wtf that's half the reason to go to the beach
i guess HB people are gonna have to go a city over for (plastic) bags...
Yea, It got banned in Newport beach and HB was supposed to follow suit, but I knew it wouldn't happen. NP is more snobby.
And yea that is a great point as well, people on the borders of the city are now going to take their business and taxes to the next city over instead of HB because then they don't have to worry about bags.
Also, the fact that the bags are not going to be uniform or easily accessed from cashiers/baggers is going to slow lines down a bit at the checkouts.
Assuming you don't recycle bags, it's probably an average of 1.25$ per visit per month per family. So let's say 15 bucks a year. Population is about 195k people, divide by 3 (avg family size) and you get 65,000 x 15$ = $975,000, which is almost a million dollars the people of HB could/would be paying instead of the companies. Not even taking into account all the 16million visitors a year, and all the small trash bag sales that will inevitably result from this
Ignoring the money thing. There are probably hundreds/thousands of bad apples that fuck up the beaches etc. and you shouldn't punish the entire population based on those fuckups. I don't think a single person I know has ever thrown a plastic bag anywhere but the trash/recycle.
And, while I agree that plastics in landfills or whatever is a problem, this is like putting a bandaid on a broken arm. The issue deeper than this surface level nonsense.
I live in a city that does this to at least some degree.
It's not that bad IMO. I always took in way more grocery bags than I ever used for trash. The bags would accumulate over time. Now I just use the cloth bags and I'm pretty sure my plastic bag consumption is substantially reduced overall. Yes, it costs me slightly more because I have to buy garbage bags, but I find the expense to be negligible. I don't know if this is good or bad for the stores, but I don't really care much either way.
On November 13 2013 10:50 Firnafth wrote: I live in a city that does this to at least some degree.
It's not that bad IMO. I always took in way more grocery bags than I ever used for trash. The bags would accumulate over time. Now I just use the cloth bags and I'm pretty sure my plastic bag consumption is substantially reduced overall. Yes, it costs me slightly more because I have to buy garbage bags, but I find the expense to be negligible. I don't know if this is good or bad for the stores, but I don't really care much either way.
What city do you live in? How long has this been in effect?
BoT, Alternative solutions?
The city should just pay people to clean up the beaches instead; out of a tax from companies that use plastic bags in our city. I would take that job, considering that I need one at the moment.
Or better yet, which will never happen, US gov't force mandate for all companies to use biodegradable bags without passing the cost onto consumers directly.
I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
Already happened in NorCal since the beginning of the year.
I always forget to bring a grocery bag with me so I end up paying an additional 20 cents. I also swear to myself that I'll remember to bring a bag the next time, which I promptly forget.
Plastic bags have been obsolete in this country since 2011. As a substitute, the sell you bags in a similar plastic style, but made from corn, 100% biodegradable. Small groceries shops and small shops still use them and 90% of time they are not sold.
This substitute is of material that breaks very easily. I wish they had paper bags everywhere, american-style. I don' t care which system pollutes less, tbh, anything less would be hypercritical unless you are directly involved in creating more substainable life. I just want them paper bags
Edit: Most people (myself included) always bring a bag to shop. Anything less is disorganazation and lazyness. good shooping
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
If I had to guess, this is a research project of some sort? I actually did a study about the usage and recycling of plastic bags about 4 years ago back when I was in college. I honestly cannot remember too much, but if you need some information, feel free to PM me!
As for the plastic bag ban, a lot of major cities in Eastern Asia have already banned plastic bags and grocery stores, convenient stores, drug stores, etc make you pay a fee if you need a plastic bag.
In Taipei, Taiwan, the plastic bag ban has been around for at least 5-6 years. In the beginning, I noticed a lot of people still bought the plastic bags because back then, the cloth bags were not as popular as they are now. As time went on, more and more people, mostly women because they have purses, walk around with reusable bags.
However, if you're familiar with Taiwan, there are a lot of small privately owned shops that do not really follow this rule. Mostly chain stores like Watsons, 7-11, Wellcome, and Carrefour charge for plastic bags.
I know one thing is for sure, not many places recycle plastic bags. The apartment complex that I live in recycles them, but I do not really see any plastic bag recycling bins near grocery stores, or anywhere to be honest.
I am also in Hong Kong very often and I have noticed that major chain stores also charge for plastic bags. Not sure how long the law has been around though.
On November 13 2013 11:41 rkshox wrote: If I had to guess, this is a research project of some sort? I actually did a study about the usage and recycling of plastic bags about 4 years ago back when I was in college. I honestly cannot remember too much, but if you need some information, feel free to PM me!
As for the plastic bag ban, a lot of major cities in Eastern Asia have already banned plastic bags and grocery stores, convenient stores, drug stores, etc make you pay a fee if you need a plastic bag.
In Taipei, Taiwan, the plastic bag ban has been around for at least 5-6 years. In the beginning, I noticed a lot of people still bought the plastic bags because back then, the cloth bags were not as popular as they are now. As time went on, more and more people, mostly women because they have purses, walk around with reusable bags.
However, if you're familiar with Taiwan, there are a lot of small privately owned shops that do not really follow this rule. Mostly chain stores like Watsons, 7-11, Wellcome, and Carrefour charge for plastic bags.
I know one thing is for sure, not many places recycle plastic bags. The apartment complex that I live in recycles them, but I do not really see any plastic bag recycling bins near grocery stores, or anywhere to be honest.
I am also in Hong Kong very often and I have noticed that major chain stores also charge for plastic bags. Not sure how long the law has been around though.
I know in India it is/was a huge problem as well. But in USA, the system was built in place that gives incentive to companies and people for recycling. A lot of big companies actually rely on their estimated recycle as part of their budgets every year. I can't recall exactly what it was, but I remember a story where a company was doing fraudulent shit based on this idea. They would like buy all the copper salvage or something and move it around constantly to keep their monopoly and keep their product limited etc.
On one hand I understand your frustration, I too would be a little annoyed. On the other hand, look at how little it takes to get people riled up. Small changes like this get people angry, and yet we have mountains to climb if we want to start dealing with climate change and just our various pollution problems.
So perhaps it's not a very effective measure, but it shows us that even baby steps are too much for us dumbfucks. We're not willing to make even the smallest sacrifices in the short term to solve our problems, good luck doing anything substantial.
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
Clearly read the thread.
A million what? For all the businesses in the city where you are? That's a pittance compared to even one day's wages.
It's great that you, your suburban friends, and all of the families you know in the immediate area, reuse all those bags to take out the heaping mounds of trash you produce every day. It does seem like quite an imposition for you guys to pay a couple dollars for reusable cloth bags. It must be a conspiracy by the companies in the area to shave off a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their operating budget.
Just carry your own bag around. How is this not better? Don't you have a car? In D.C. people carry bags around for shopping and they walk/use public transit to get to the store.
Hong Kong has this for a while (but not all stores) You will get used to it, and I am seeing a lot more people carrying the reusable bag when they go shopping so this part works.
On November 13 2013 11:41 rkshox wrote: If I had to guess, this is a research project of some sort? I actually did a study about the usage and recycling of plastic bags about 4 years ago back when I was in college. I honestly cannot remember too much, but if you need some information, feel free to PM me!
As for the plastic bag ban, a lot of major cities in Eastern Asia have already banned plastic bags and grocery stores, convenient stores, drug stores, etc make you pay a fee if you need a plastic bag.
In Taipei, Taiwan, the plastic bag ban has been around for at least 5-6 years. In the beginning, I noticed a lot of people still bought the plastic bags because back then, the cloth bags were not as popular as they are now. As time went on, more and more people, mostly women because they have purses, walk around with reusable bags.
However, if you're familiar with Taiwan, there are a lot of small privately owned shops that do not really follow this rule. Mostly chain stores like Watsons, 7-11, Wellcome, and Carrefour charge for plastic bags.
I know one thing is for sure, not many places recycle plastic bags. The apartment complex that I live in recycles them, but I do not really see any plastic bag recycling bins near grocery stores, or anywhere to be honest.
I am also in Hong Kong very often and I have noticed that major chain stores also charge for plastic bags. Not sure how long the law has been around though.
Yeah, people have really gotten used to just paying a little bit extra for a plastic bag, or bringing their own. The exception I've observed is at those small breakfast shops where they give you mini plastic bags that are just big enough to carry your take-out food, but otherwise basically pretty much all supermarkets (and convenience stores) provide either plastic bags for a fee, or make buying cheap reusable bags an option.
I've been using the same hessian bag for shopping for the past 4 years. It cost me one dollar and carries far more, far more safely than any plastic bag can. The only cost is foresight. The only other person I see doing this where I shop is my housemate. People are funny.
I work in glendale, and they've had a bag ordinance since July. It's a real pain in the ass if you ask me. I have to keep those stupid bags in my car at all times if I want to not be charged to buy a bag from them (which is upsetting because I don't ever keep these bags in my car). So I end up carrying my week or so's worth of work lunches without bags.
As for the lobbying, I used to intern at a business group for socal businesses, and I remember Los Angeles wanting to implement a city-wide bag ordinance and the businesses we represented, all the main chains (ralphs, vons, etc.) did not want the bag ordinance since it made it inconvenient for their customers.
Side note: whenever someone mentions HB, I always think of this. + Show Spoiler +
It is crazy to me that people would not just pay $0.20 for bags or whatever instead of carrying all their groceries out since they forgot their bags. That is such an insignificant amount of money. That doesn't even consider how easy it is to just always store the bags in your car. You spend hundreds of times that on trivial things all the time. Penny wise, pound foolish.
It's probably the plastic bag companies. Glad, Hefty, Ziploc? etc. I'm pro- anything that reduces plastic use and production, though. Maybe hemp bags will become the norm. Paper bags just sounds like tree reduction, and we really don't need more of that.
On November 13 2013 11:48 Smurfett3 wrote: its for the environment, not for money
because you know, not using plastic bags is going to undo all the damage humanity does by existing and continuing to exist, right.
it reduces, not undo. impossible to undo all the damage, but very possible to reduce
and this pipe dream without a net benefit that can be articulated beyond ideals justifies the regressive taxation of poor people on basic food and necessities on each purchase?
On November 13 2013 11:48 Smurfett3 wrote: its for the environment, not for money
because you know, not using plastic bags is going to undo all the damage humanity does by existing and continuing to exist, right.
it reduces, not undo. impossible to undo all the damage, but very possible to reduce
and this pipe dream without a net benefit that can be articulated beyond ideals justifies the regressive taxation of poor people on basic food and necessities on each purchase?
please.
ok your only taxed if you use plastic bags dummy. if you bring your own, you don't get taxed.
pipe dream = cleaner environment
net benefit = less garbage in landfills that is not bio-degradable
articulated beyond ideals = 10 cent tax on plastic bags....no cent tax on re-usable bags.
Most of the SF Peninsula has had this law in place for about 8 months now. It's kind of inconvenient, but I've gotten used to it. You can buy paper bags at most stores for $0.10 if you don't bring your own bags.
This is a tax on the lazy, the stupid and the environmentally unconscious, so I approve.
In Germany for example no supermarket has offered free plastic bags for at least the last 15 years.
The trashbag argument would depend, do they also make those tiny perforations that leak everything so that the bags can't suffocate small children on your end of the pond? If yes, then their worth as trashbags is virtually nil.
On November 14 2013 05:53 DarkNetHunter wrote: It's also better to argue your own opinion than spout philosophical platitudes or prejudiced generalizations.
i think those prejudcied generalizations ARE his opinion sadly
On November 14 2013 05:53 DarkNetHunter wrote: It's also better to argue your own opinion than spout philosophical platitudes or prejudiced generalizations.
i think those prejudcied generalizations ARE his opinion sadly
Well that is unfortunate, but the blog and topic merit more than his contribution
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
Clearly read the thread.
A million what? For all the businesses in the city where you are? That's a pittance compared to even one day's wages.
It's great that you, your suburban friends, and all of the families you know in the immediate area, reuse all those bags to take out the heaping mounds of trash you produce every day. It does seem like quite an imposition for you guys to pay a couple dollars for reusable cloth bags. It must be a conspiracy by the companies in the area to shave off a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their operating budget.
Just carry your own bag around. How is this not better? Don't you have a car? In D.C. people carry bags around for shopping and they walk/use public transit to get to the store.
By my rough estimation of the people who live here it's a million dollars yearly. That doesn't take into account of the 16million visitors a year, or more importantly, the increase in sales of small trash bags that will take place. Also, if more cities follow suit, it's a million dollars here, a million there, that adds up. And company or not, any money saved is always a primary interest.
Arguably, the small trash bags that people will buy are going to have more plastic than standard cheap grocery bags and cost more money to the consumer of course. Effectively being worse and having no plus side for anyone but the businesses.
This is not about grocery bags for their primary purpose. It's not about the environment. It's about money. If these companies really cared, they would have switched to biodegradeables years ago.
I actually do not have a car atm no. This isn't about me anyways. Which is another point, how does one or even thousands of individuals who throw trash bags on the environment compare at all to a large corporation who does the same thing on huge (semi)national scale?** Look at wal-mart's track record for example. Besides you shouldn't punish the many, for the 'crimes' of the few. Something that happens way too much in all aspects of life these days.
This is just bullshit disguised as a 'step in the right direction' in order for the big business to save money and pretend they are being environmentally conscious while really achieving nothing and deflecting cost to individual consumers.
**They continue to support and produce many products wrapped in wasteful plastic, packing/shipping in huge amounts of wasteful plastic, create generic products with wasteful plastic. etc. etc. Water bottles are a much larger concern.
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
Clearly read the thread.
A million what? For all the businesses in the city where you are? That's a pittance compared to even one day's wages.
It's great that you, your suburban friends, and all of the families you know in the immediate area, reuse all those bags to take out the heaping mounds of trash you produce every day. It does seem like quite an imposition for you guys to pay a couple dollars for reusable cloth bags. It must be a conspiracy by the companies in the area to shave off a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their operating budget.
Just carry your own bag around. How is this not better? Don't you have a car? In D.C. people carry bags around for shopping and they walk/use public transit to get to the store.
By my rough estimation of the people who live here it's a million dollars yearly. That doesn't take into account of the 16million visitors a year, or more importantly, the increase in sales of small trash bags that will take place. Also, if more cities follow suit, it's a million dollars here, a million there, that adds up. And company or not, any money saved is always a primary interest.
Arguably, the small trash bags that people will buy are going to have more plastic than standard cheap grocery bags and cost more money to the consumer of course. Effectively being worse and having no plus side for anyone but the businesses.
This is not about grocery bags for their primary purpose. It's not about the environment. It's about money. If these companies really cared, they would have switched to biodegradeables years ago.
I actually do not have a car atm no. This isn't about me anyways. Which is another point, how does one or even thousands of individuals who throw trash bags on the environment compare at all to a large corporation who does the same thing on huge (semi)national scale?** Look at wal-mart's track record for example. Besides you shouldn't punish the many, for the 'crimes' of the few. Something that happens way too much in all aspects of life these days.
This is just bullshit disguised as a 'step in the right direction' in order for the big business to save money and pretend they are being environmentally conscious while really achieving nothing and deflecting cost to individual consumers.
**They continue to support and produce many products wrapped in wasteful plastic, packing/shipping in huge amounts of wasteful plastic, create generic products with wasteful plastic. etc. etc.
achieving .5% cleaner environment from not using plastic bags is not equal to nothing.\
also stop bashing wal-mart and ONLY wal-mart based on a documentary you saw.
On November 13 2013 10:50 Firnafth wrote: I live in a city that does this to at least some degree.
It's not that bad IMO. I always took in way more grocery bags than I ever used for trash. The bags would accumulate over time. Now I just use the cloth bags and I'm pretty sure my plastic bag consumption is substantially reduced overall. Yes, it costs me slightly more because I have to buy garbage bags, but I find the expense to be negligible. I don't know if this is good or bad for the stores, but I don't really care much either way.
What city do you live in? How long has this been in effect?
I am in SoCal (don't want to be more specific). I moved here in January and it has been this way since I moved here. I am not sure when the rule was originally instituted.
Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
Clearly read the thread.
A million what? For all the businesses in the city where you are? That's a pittance compared to even one day's wages.
It's great that you, your suburban friends, and all of the families you know in the immediate area, reuse all those bags to take out the heaping mounds of trash you produce every day. It does seem like quite an imposition for you guys to pay a couple dollars for reusable cloth bags. It must be a conspiracy by the companies in the area to shave off a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their operating budget.
Just carry your own bag around. How is this not better? Don't you have a car? In D.C. people carry bags around for shopping and they walk/use public transit to get to the store.
By my rough estimation of the people who live here it's a million dollars yearly. That doesn't take into account of the 16million visitors a year, or more importantly, the increase in sales of small trash bags that will take place. Also, if more cities follow suit, it's a million dollars here, a million there, that adds up. And company or not, any money saved is always a primary interest.
Arguably, the small trash bags that people will buy are going to have more plastic than standard cheap grocery bags and cost more money to the consumer of course. Effectively being worse and having no plus side for anyone but the businesses.
This is not about grocery bags for their primary purpose. It's not about the environment. It's about money. If these companies really cared, they would have switched to biodegradeables years ago.
I actually do not have a car atm no. This isn't about me anyways. Which is another point, how does one or even thousands of individuals who throw trash bags on the environment compare at all to a large corporation who does the same thing on huge (semi)national scale?** Look at wal-mart's track record for example. Besides you shouldn't punish the many, for the 'crimes' of the few. Something that happens way too much in all aspects of life these days.
This is just bullshit disguised as a 'step in the right direction' in order for the big business to save money and pretend they are being environmentally conscious while really achieving nothing and deflecting cost to individual consumers.
**They continue to support and produce many products wrapped in wasteful plastic, packing/shipping in huge amounts of wasteful plastic, create generic products with wasteful plastic. etc. etc.
achieving .5% cleaner environment from not using plastic bags is not equal to nothing.\
also stop bashing wal-mart and ONLY wal-mart based on a documentary you saw.
On November 14 2013 11:59 Swede wrote: Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
Missing the point. This isn't going to change much if anything at all as far as plastic waste. The problem is much deeper, this surface level change doesn't do anything.
On November 14 2013 11:59 Swede wrote: Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
Missing the point. This isn't going to change much if anything at all as far as plastic waste. The problem is much deeper, this surface level change doesn't do anything.
And you are fucking pissed off that you don't have your precious plastic bags anymore. There's just nothing you could possibly do to remedy that.
On November 13 2013 11:18 IgnE wrote: I think you are vastly overestimating how many people reuse the plastic bags. If you grocery shop every week for a family of four there's no possible way you can use all those bags up. Especially when people ask for "double bags" because they don't think the bags are strong enough.
I also think you are vastly overestimating the cost savings to "big companies" who "don't want to pay for plastic bags." Your rage is misplaced.
We manage to keep a stockpile of bags and I use them constantly for bathroom trashbags as well as my room. And if we ever want to give away fruit from our trees or need a bag, we got one. Most people I know, also do the same things with their bags as almost everyone has a place where they keep old grocery bags, it's almost weird if someone doesn't these days. I would say the average house has anywhere from 15-50 bags saved at any given time.
Since my estimates are close to about a million a year here (not counting visitor sales or small trash bag sales increase) in just this one city alone, imagine what the cost saved could be over the entire country if they followed suit. And I think you underestimating the bottom line for big companies. There is a documentary on wal-mart that is relevant to this. There is also a movie called 'the corporation' among numerous other documentaries (I can't remember the names right now. + Show Spoiler +
One had emphasis on how shopping works economically with animations and stuff. IIRC, found on TL, pretty good.
). It's not unreasonable to assume big companies are trying to profit any way they can and reduce cost and loss any way they can. The only time the line is drawn, is when the action created to reduce costs has a diminishing return by creating irate costumers which will lose the company business.
On November 13 2013 11:29 tognix wrote: Nothing has happened in SoCal. They tried banning fire pits in a specific beach, can't remember which one, but they didn't go through with it.
Clearly read the thread.
A million what? For all the businesses in the city where you are? That's a pittance compared to even one day's wages.
It's great that you, your suburban friends, and all of the families you know in the immediate area, reuse all those bags to take out the heaping mounds of trash you produce every day. It does seem like quite an imposition for you guys to pay a couple dollars for reusable cloth bags. It must be a conspiracy by the companies in the area to shave off a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their operating budget.
Just carry your own bag around. How is this not better? Don't you have a car? In D.C. people carry bags around for shopping and they walk/use public transit to get to the store.
By my rough estimation of the people who live here it's a million dollars yearly. That doesn't take into account of the 16million visitors a year, or more importantly, the increase in sales of small trash bags that will take place. Also, if more cities follow suit, it's a million dollars here, a million there, that adds up. And company or not, any money saved is always a primary interest.
Arguably, the small trash bags that people will buy are going to have more plastic than standard cheap grocery bags and cost more money to the consumer of course. Effectively being worse and having no plus side for anyone but the businesses.
This is not about grocery bags for their primary purpose. It's not about the environment. It's about money. If these companies really cared, they would have switched to biodegradeables years ago.
I actually do not have a car atm no. This isn't about me anyways. Which is another point, how does one or even thousands of individuals who throw trash bags on the environment compare at all to a large corporation who does the same thing on huge (semi)national scale?** Look at wal-mart's track record for example. Besides you shouldn't punish the many, for the 'crimes' of the few. Something that happens way too much in all aspects of life these days.
This is just bullshit disguised as a 'step in the right direction' in order for the big business to save money and pretend they are being environmentally conscious while really achieving nothing and deflecting cost to individual consumers.
**They continue to support and produce many products wrapped in wasteful plastic, packing/shipping in huge amounts of wasteful plastic, create generic products with wasteful plastic. etc. etc.
achieving .5% cleaner environment from not using plastic bags is not equal to nothing.\
also stop bashing wal-mart and ONLY wal-mart based on a documentary you saw.
On November 14 2013 11:59 Swede wrote: Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
Missing the point. This isn't going to change much if anything at all as far as plastic waste. The problem is much deeper, this surface level change doesn't do anything.
I just don't buy your argument that it won't change much with regards to plastic waste. And the problem isn't much deeper. If the problem you're talking about is damage to the environment, then things like this are that problem. Climate change isn't caused solely by one extremely powerful force. It's caused by thousands and thousands of little things that humans do every day, like driving your car to work or getting a few extra plastic bags. If you think the problem is deeper than that then you literally just don't understand the problem.
People supposedly want shit to be done about environmental issues, but then when they're given an opportunity to make a simple, easy change to the way they live they say that it won't work or it's too insignificant. That's because they're thinking about it incorrectly. Most people think: "well, everybody else is using plastic bags so why shouldn't I? I'm just one more person, after all" (or they just don't think about it at all). When they should be thinking: "what would happen if everybody stopped using plastic bags today? Well, it would be amazing! On the off chance that everybody else is thinking the same thing, I should totally do that!"
On November 14 2013 11:59 Swede wrote: Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
Missing the point. This isn't going to change much if anything at all as far as plastic waste. The problem is much deeper, this surface level change doesn't do anything.
I just don't buy your argument that it won't change much with regards to plastic waste. And the problem isn't much deeper. If the problem you're talking about is damage to the environment, then things like this are that problem. Climate change isn't caused solely by one extremely powerful force. It's caused by thousands and thousands of little things that humans do every day, like driving your car to work or getting a few extra plastic bags. If you think the problem is deeper than that then you literally just don't understand the problem.
People supposedly want shit to be done about environmental issues, but then when they're given an opportunity to make a simple, easy change to the way they live they say that it won't work or it's too insignificant. That's because they're thinking about it incorrectly. Most people think: "well, everybody else is using plastic bags so why shouldn't I? I'm just one more person, after all" (or they just don't think about it at all). When they should be thinking: "what would happen if everybody stopped using plastic bags today? Well, it would be amazing! On the off chance that everybody else is thinking the same thing, I should totally do that!"
If only!
Problems are not fixed or changed from the surface in, no. They are always fixed from the inside out. It is systemic. The biggest polluters should be the ones forced to make changes and setting example for everyone else who is smaller. Coincidentally, if the businesses made changes; people's only choice then is to shop somewhere else or not at all. This backwards shit is just about money.
lol side note, my mom forgot to put the bags back in the car after using them last. Went to the store with my nephew and had to carry all the shit out without bags. So convenient
On November 14 2013 11:59 Swede wrote: Who cares why they did it. It's undeniably better for the environment, and if you're smart about it you can pay them like $1 every year (10 bags a year).
I've always thought plastic bags should be banned or severely disincentivized. So easy and pretty effective.
Missing the point. This isn't going to change much if anything at all as far as plastic waste. The problem is much deeper, this surface level change doesn't do anything.
I just don't buy your argument that it won't change much with regards to plastic waste. And the problem isn't much deeper. If the problem you're talking about is damage to the environment, then things like this are that problem. Climate change isn't caused solely by one extremely powerful force. It's caused by thousands and thousands of little things that humans do every day, like driving your car to work or getting a few extra plastic bags. If you think the problem is deeper than that then you literally just don't understand the problem.
People supposedly want shit to be done about environmental issues, but then when they're given an opportunity to make a simple, easy change to the way they live they say that it won't work or it's too insignificant. That's because they're thinking about it incorrectly. Most people think: "well, everybody else is using plastic bags so why shouldn't I? I'm just one more person, after all" (or they just don't think about it at all). When they should be thinking: "what would happen if everybody stopped using plastic bags today? Well, it would be amazing! On the off chance that everybody else is thinking the same thing, I should totally do that!"
If only!
Problems are not fixed or changed from the surface in, no. They are always fixed from the inside out. It is systemic. The biggest polluters should be the ones forced to make changes and setting example for everyone else who is smaller. Coincidentally, if the businesses made changes; people's only choice then is to shop somewhere else or not at all. This backwards shit is just about money.
The biggest polluters are just regular people though. Oil is mined because you and I drive cars. Non-reusable packaging is created because you and I buy it. Of course businesses are part of the problem too, but assigning them full responsibility doesn't reflect reality. None of these products which damage the environment would exist if everybody just stopped buying them.
That said, I agree that the most effective solutions will be systemic ones, but I think that you're presenting a false dichotomy. Just because it will most likely be government intervention or what have you that sorts these issues out doesn't mean that not using plastic bags or not driving as much aren't effective solutions in their own right. There's just no reason not to do these things, and there's no reason why both solutions can't be implemented simultaneously.
I don't see how it matters that money is involved either. In fact, what better motivation to be environmentally friendly is there for businesses?
On November 15 2013 10:30 MarlieChurphy wrote: lol side note, my mom forgot to put the bags back in the car after using them last. Went to the store with my nephew and had to carry all the shit out without bags. So convenient
just wanted to bumpand say the ban was repealed . basically citing all the arguments i made beforehand that were correct. it was lifted in june. only problem is the state is banning/voting in november. im stocking up hard. ps- sorta ot but this whole ca drought issue is prettty similar in a lot of the ways. everyone is always trying to work small to big on environmental issues. or any issues for that matter. And that is just retarded. in reality like 90%+ of water use is agriculture and corporations and govt mismanage (evaporation etc). we have exports on things like raisins and alfalfa whic h we have massive stores of and companies like nestle exporting straight water. its all about money and the civilians even in100% mass cant dent the problem.
You had 2 years to adjust to a more ecologically sustainable way of carrying products and it wasn't enough? I can get plastic bags here and I still have these big carrying pouches that are more sturdy and can be reused.
I think there are valid arguments but I also think that Chmurphlie, you didn't even try.
I buy allegedly biodegradable (lol probably not) bags for trash and reusable foldable bags for carrying shit. Saving the world. GG
Plastic bags were banned where I live maybe 2 or 3 years ago. It's really not that hard to use a reusable bag, and if you forget, they give you a paper one. Were you really arguing that not giving out fresh plastic bags for pretty much every individual purchase at the supermarket won't reduce plastic use and waste?
you should read my arguments instead of asking to dumb thwm down and rewrite them. i was right and banning plastic bags had nothing in mind for companies but making money. ironically it backfired and hb shoppers just shopped out of town costing them more money they saved on bags by losing overall sales. so thn they act like " oh it wasnt helping the pollution". such obvious pandering bullshit.
also i dunno if i ever mentiond but maddox does abiggest problemin the universe podcast and he brought the bag ban in on an episode last year. he brought all these stats about how bullshit it was including that the so callled reuseable bags were causing the spread of disease and even deaths as well as slowing down commerce etc.
On September 04 2015 14:16 MarlieChurphy wrote: you should read my arguments instead of asking to dumb thwm down and rewrite them. i was right and banning plastic bags had nothing in mind for companies but making money. ironically it backfired and hb shoppers just shopped out of town costing them more money they saved on bags by losing overall sales. so thn they act like " oh it wasnt helping the pollution". such obvious pandering bullshit.
Rereading your arguments won't make them any better tbh. If you don't feel like legislation does it right, maybe do your own thing instead of reverting to "stocking up" plastic to plastic bags the second you can. This whole ordeal feels super juvenile. I migrated away from plastic bags myself when they forced the businesses to charge 5 cents for them and found it it was not at all inconvenient.
If your arguments 2 years later still revolve around how people will still just buy plastic bags, everyone I know uses reusable bags now. When I go do the groceries, 90% of the people carry their stuff to their car with reusable bags. Kids have foldable lunchboxes instead of bringing their food in plastic bags. All they did was make them cost a negligible amount of money while repeater "don't get plastic bags" over and over and everybody suddenly found out that plastic bags suck for most of the things they're used for anyway.
In your words: "Most importantly, People are not going to have the excess bags laying around their house anymore and are going to need to buy little trash bags to use for their little trash cans now"
Why would you want people to read your arguments MarlieChurphy? They've got numbers showing a steep decline in the use of plastic bags that were reused not because they were needed but because they were so widely available from being produced in absolutely ridiculous quantity.
If the lack of free plastic bags is inconveniencing you to the point where you need to make a thread where you build yourself some bonkers, weak arguments, perhaps you're just not the kind of people who can change their ways. Perhaps you're just bound to be old school. It takes humility to admit you've been doing something wrong. We've moved on in my town. You're stocking up on plastic bags. Think about it.
Bump. Lookie what i said coming true again, now they want to ban plastic straws. Btw bags are still around and grocery stores have the thicker ones everyone trashes just the same, and i just buy boxes from work for 3c a bag.
Only a matter of time until forks, spoons, plates, napkins, cups, etc are all banned. And we all have to carry around napsack full of shit everywhere.
ya, plastic bags is banned in long island NY a while ago. Upstate NY it's still around. I don't know enough hard data regarding how effective good this does for the environment. what % of people actually recycle their bags etc. I did get a few renewable grocery bags, they carry more stuff and I don't have to worry about having to pay extra at some places where plastic bags are banned. I do use them for little trash cans when I do get them so you're right about small utilities.
On August 17 2018 21:46 MarlieChurphy wrote: Bump. Lookie what i said coming true again, now they want to ban plastic straws. Btw bags are still around and grocery stores have the thicker ones everyone trashes just the same, and i just buy boxes from work for 3c a bag.
Only a matter of time until forks, spoons, plates, napkins, cups, etc are all banned. And we all have to carry around napsack full of shit everywhere.
Look at this:
What you see here is what happens to most of your garbage. The problem with plastics is that they are not biodegradable and now are going to be sitting as trash for the duration of our entire lives, our children's lives, and their children's lives. This is making beautiful beaches look horrible and is killing people and animals.
That video is random trash- prob in india, not plastic bits on the oceanic gyres. Im not saying pollution isnt a problem, but this regime of banning shit small to big is a con. Not to mention most of the plastics out there come from major polluters that arent the western world.
So no, most of my garbage does not end up in the ocean. We have a system here where we put trash, compost, and recycles into bins. And once a week we pay taxes so dudes in cool trucks take them to be processed, repurporsed, or buried. Nice try
On August 22 2018 08:28 MarlieChurphy wrote: That video is random trash- prob in india, not plastic bits on the oceanic gyres. Im not saying pollution isnt a problem, but this regime of banning shit small to big is a con. Not to mention most of the plastics out there come from major polluters that arent the western world.
So no, most of my garbage does not end up in the ocean. We have a system here where we put trash, compost, and recycles into bins. And once a week we pay taxes so dudes in cool trucks take them to be processed, repurporsed, or buried. Nice try
95% of plastic waste in the oceans comes from just 10 rivers, all either in Africa or Asia, stuff like banning straws and plastic bags is a complete joke.
See, when you outsource your trash, it's easier to make it ending up in the ocean someone else's fault.
An estimated 111 million metric tons of plastic waste will be displaced by 2030 as a result of China’s recent ban on the import of most plastic waste, according to new research.
That decision means the U.S. and other industrialized countries that have been exporting their plastic waste to China for "recycling" will need to find new ways to handle the disposal of their trash as much of it is already starting to pile up in landfills.
Be another thousand years before bio-degradable plastic bags will be universal, I use my regular plastic bags for my rubbish bin after getting the grocery. I don't understand how average families manage to fill up those massive garbage bags unless they are tossing them out everyday at less than half capacity.
On August 22 2018 08:28 MarlieChurphy wrote: That video is random trash- prob in india, not plastic bits on the oceanic gyres. Im not saying pollution isnt a problem, but this regime of banning shit small to big is a con. Not to mention most of the plastics out there come from major polluters that arent the western world.
So no, most of my garbage does not end up in the ocean. We have a system here where we put trash, compost, and recycles into bins. And once a week we pay taxes so dudes in cool trucks take them to be processed, repurporsed, or buried. Nice try
I agree, India and China do a lot of polluting. That doesn't mean we shouldn't lead the way in trying to reduce our own pollution so we don't contribute to that whole mess.
So the thin free plastic bags are banned at grocery stores. But you can still pay 10c for the thicker plastic ones. Lately ive been taking pics whenever i see them littered or thrown away because i see them all over the place just like the old ones. So they actually managed to make the problem worse and charge us for it.
No to mentiin that the old style bags are still available at restaraunts, liquor stores , shops, etc.
Lol update. Due to Covid, You cant bring your own bags in anymore. And they stopped doing the 10c "reusable" bags that everyone just throws away or whatever anyway.
So what do they do now? They brought back the same old free plastic thin bags that were proven to be no more polluting than the new ones. For a while I was taking pics of these thicker 10c bags littered and trashed all over the place, but it was just dozens and dozens of pics and I just foldered them somewhere and stopped.
Anyways, covid all the sudden supercedes the impending doom of pollution and global warming caused by bags.
PS - I think germany is also banning all plastic single use crap and getting rid of all their coal and outsourcing their energy from russia so they can look green.
I know in India it is/was a huge problem as well. But in USA, the system was built in place that gives incentive to companies and people for recycling. A lot of big companies actually rely on their estimated recycle as part of their budgets every year.
EPT
