Cars in Singapore are... ridiculously overpriced. Here's one small segment with F&F6 that our local media online TV did:
Yes, car prices are THAT crazy in Singapore. For the price of a, say a Toyota Camry 2.5 in Singapore, you could probably get a GTR elsewhere. T_T
The reason for all that high price is this scheme called "Certificate of Entitlement" that is basically a permit that one needs to get to drive the car that the permit is attached to. Supply is limited but demand is high so.. yeah. It was originally introduced to restrict the number of cars on the roads but yeah... not going too well, because those who can afford to pay that premium (which is basically A LOT of people here) can continue to pay, thus continuously inflating the price of the COE. The permit itself is close to $90,000 already LOL. Below is that trend of this "COE" price over the years...
Oh yeah, not to mention the high fuel prices, maintenance costs, road tax, radio tax, car import tax etc... man.
EDIT: One more thing, did I mention that this COE entitles you to drive your car for ONLY 5 or 10 years, depending on which option you've gone for? This means, after that 5 or 10 years, you either scrap the car or purchase ANOTHER COE (which may be 50k? 90k? 1 million? who knows!) to continue using that car. -______-
As a car lover, it's really hard to want to get a nice car. I'm currently driving a Nissan Sunny EX Saloon 2007, but when you see many others in Singapore driving 458s or Murcielagos (which cost over a million each), you can't help but just go </3. There are so many Lamborghini and Ferrari owners that in fact, many people nowadays are looking into even more exotic car brands such as the Pagani, Koenigsegg and even Lotus (which is actually a cheap supercar by Singapore's standard).
A few months ago, the first Koenigsegg Agera S was sold it Singapore for... *drum rolls* $5.3 MILLION.
The Koenigsegg Agera S in question
As a pretty well rich country, I do have quite a lot of friends who are rich enough to drive their own cars, such as the BMW z4 2.0i (close to $280,000), BMW M5 ($450,000-ish), Maserati GranTurismo 4.7 Sports ($600,000). And these cars are, by Singapore's standard, "common". Hell, even BMWs, Mercedes-Benz, Audis and Porsches aren't considered a "rich man's car" by modern standards (unless you're talking about the top of the line series such as the 7-series, M6, R8, SLS etc).
Cars are considered (aside from probably properties, which can cost from 500k for a 2-room apartment to a cool $50million for a private property) to be THE ultimate way of showing off your wealth and status in Singapore. Hence all the supercars in Singapore. Being brutally honest, you aren't considered well off even if you have a car. "Oh, so you have a Mazda 3? Driving a Honda Civic? You must be really below average." Because in the modern era, the "average" man tends to drive at least a BMW 3-series (base price of $220k).
Singapore, in fact has the one of the (if not, the highest) supercar density in the world. It's a common sight to see over 50 supercars parked outside a luxury hotel during special occasions such as Christmas or Chinese New Year. Supercar clubs in Singapore such as the Ferrari Club of Singapore and the Lamborghini Club Singapore organise such events, and when you happen to witness the gathering of such luxury cars, it really is a sight to see.
Some example videos:
My family currently owns a 2014 Mercedes-Benz S350, a 2011 Nissan Teana 250XV V6 and my own 2007 Nissan Sunny EX Saloon, which I am not saying isn't a lot by any means (the income difference in Singapore is crazy, but that's another issue), but when you have all these other luxuries around you, you can't help but wonder how much harder you have to work to attain that amount of wealth O__O it is a source of motivation for me though, so I guess it isn't too bad... just that it's hard being a car fan in Singapore Especially when nice old classic cars such as the Ferrari 308 Dino GT4 can cost only 10k in the US (almost 100k in Singapore..)
On November 10 2013 02:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My mind is completely blown. Hot cars, but plenty of the average joe cars (that cost 100K+ in your country) cost like 20-30K here lol
yeah it's really sad, even the Nissan Leaf (one of the cheapest in Singapore already) cost a base 100k in Singapore...
There are also tight loaning schemes, requiring you to have at least 50% of the car price before being able to purchase it. So if you want to purchase, say a Lamborghini Aventador (which has a cost price of $1.4 million), you need at least 700-800k before you can even THINK about buying one. Not to mention you only have 5 years to pay the other 50%, with an average of 2.8% interest rate on your installments.
Out of curiosity, could you estimate how much my red 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS would have costed if you bought it brand new (5-6 years ago) in Singapore?
It sold for just under $20K when I bought it, although I got it fully stocked with a couple particularly nice features like a sunroof and sound package, which made the total $23K.
On November 10 2013 02:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Out of curiosity, could you estimate how much my red 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS would have costed if you bought it brand new (5-6 years ago) in Singapore?
It sold for just under $20K when I bought it, although I got it fully stocked with a couple particularly nice features like a sunroof and sound package, which made the total $23K.
around 5-6 years ago, it would probably have cost around $120k, give or take $10k.
On November 10 2013 02:31 peidongyang wrote: what happens to car options are they taxed too?
would be hilarious seeking as you can easily spec out a ferrari or Lambo with 100k+ in options before any taxes/import fees
there is import tax (this I'm not too sure, but iirc it's around 10%) and goods and services tax (GST) of 7%. These are "additional" costs on top of the Open Market Value (OMV) of the vehicle, where the car import tax, car base cost, handling costs, evaluation costs etc are all considered.
On November 10 2013 02:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Out of curiosity, could you estimate how much my red 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS would have costed if you bought it brand new (5-6 years ago) in Singapore?
It sold for just under $20K when I bought it, although I got it fully stocked with a couple particularly nice features like a sunroof and sound package, which made the total $23K.
around 5-6 years ago, it would probably have cost around $120k, give or take $10k.
On November 10 2013 04:05 itsjustatank wrote: it appears the tax is not working.
imagine that.
yeah it really isn't. car tax rate in singapore is one of the highest in the world, not to mention ALL of our vehicles have to be imported unlike malaysia, korea, japan or US. the COE price goes higher the bigger your engine capacity is, but it doesn't matter for the ultra rich people living here.
the key factor that goes into the COE pricing is the demand. COE for cars under 1600cc used to be very cheap (20k range, yes it's ridiculous but it's considered cheap compared to now) a decade ago, but brands like mercedes (and their C-class range) started "invading" the <1600cc range and hence the spike in prices, affecting car owners of "cheaper" brands like toyota, nissan etc.
there have been calls for many years to review or even completely abolish this system (there are multiple other car supply controlling schemes, but this COE scheme is the most costly one), but it's progressing reaaaaaaaally slowly.
yeah it's pretty crazy and frustrating how inflated car prices are, and yet all you see are Mercs and BMW's peppering the streets. I think one of the more frustrating things is that it's not even that feasible to rely solely on public transportation to get around! for such a small city, if you're only getting around by MRT and bus, it's surprisingly hard to make good time getting from pt A to B...
Maybe the ultra rich influenced policymakers to enact such a High COE to ensure other car drivers can afford to repair the supercars of the ultra rich when they get in accidents.
The chart just suggests you're in a car-buying bubble. Yeah, it's really spendy right now, but that's probably just due more to local economic considerations than much of anything else.
Cars are always going to be heavily regulated in a super small country like Singapore. (Which is also probably why he sees super cars on a daily basis; it's a SMALL country) Considering how it's over double what it was in 2003, it's just in a bubble. If the government is getting that money, though, don't expect them to change it until it collapses.
but when you have all these other luxuries around you, you can't help but wonder how much harder you have to work to attain that amount of wealth O__O
you don't really believe that, do you? No matter how much you subscribe to the ideology of "if someone is really well off, they probably deserve it because they've worked so hard for it", there is a limit after which any differences can only be attributed to luck, lineage or methods that most would be reluctant to call "hard work". (Sorry for the rant, but I was really shocked when I read this. 'guy x has a Benz, guy y has 3 Lambos and a Ferrari - so guy y works a lot harder'?!)
Frankly I would trade in the car I have just to get their kind of public transport system in Singapore. Its obvious why the price of a car is expensive considering how small the country is and the population density.
If you really want to drive around everywhere, come to Australia and live here. You need a car if you want to get anywhere (in most cities).
Also this post is feeding my stereotype that Singaporeans only care about status and are status obsessed, i.e Singaporeans are all 'kia su'
On November 10 2013 05:48 Bereft wrote: yeah it's pretty crazy and frustrating how inflated car prices are, and yet all you see are Mercs and BMW's peppering the streets. I think one of the more frustrating things is that it's not even that feasible to rely solely on public transportation to get around! for such a small city, if you're only getting around by MRT and bus, it's surprisingly hard to make good time getting from pt A to B...
yeah it's the case in here in singapore lol. the public transportation system isn't well linked enough to be able to easily travel from one place to another with ease, especially during rush hours. it's not uncommon to see people miss 3 to even 7 of the same bus (with an average waiting time of 20 mins per bus) to go home during peak hours. people are so tightly squeezed into trains and buses that many people tend to wait an average of 45 mins for their ride. taxi isn't a viable option due to the cost rising from waiting in traffic jams. car still IS convenient in singapore if you want to travel a fair amount of distance.
On November 10 2013 07:44 wei2coolman wrote: At those insane prices, could just move to another country and just retire. O.o
actually that is what most people do in singapore nowadays, denouncing their citizenship and retiring elsewhere. with the car and property prices being so high, it's easy to accumulate at least $2million (or up to $5million per average family) before retirement if one sells their properties.
On November 10 2013 07:50 GhoSt[shield] wrote: Maybe the ultra rich influenced policymakers to enact such a High COE to ensure other car drivers can afford to repair the supercars of the ultra rich when they get in accidents.
it's indirectly influenced, in a way lol. the problem with COE is that having a car has become a "need" and not a "want" (this scheme was created 23 years ago when population was way less and not everyone needed a car back then!). it has become such a high economic barrier to most of the general public. quite a lot of my peers worry when will they be able to get a car, since housing comes first and that itself is already pretty damn expensive.
On November 10 2013 08:33 Taf the Ghost wrote: The chart just suggests you're in a car-buying bubble. Yeah, it's really spendy right now, but that's probably just due more to local economic considerations than much of anything else.
Cars are always going to be heavily regulated in a super small country like Singapore. (Which is also probably why he sees super cars on a daily basis; it's a SMALL country) Considering how it's over double what it was in 2003, it's just in a bubble. If the government is getting that money, though, don't expect them to change it until it collapses.
it's partly because of the divergence in the wealth groups between the rich and poor. the poor continue to see cars being out of their grasp, while the rich don't really give a damn about the COE prices, thus giving the impression that the current COE price is acceptable. COE prices have dropped over the last two weeks though (every week there is a bidding system to purchase the COEs), so we hope it'll get better :<
On November 10 2013 10:43 rabidch wrote: good ol certification of extortions
that's another term we use to call it
On November 10 2013 10:45 Y wrote: This is an interesting post, thanks for sharing.
but when you have all these other luxuries around you, you can't help but wonder how much harder you have to work to attain that amount of wealth O__O
you don't really believe that, do you? No matter how much you subscribe to the ideology of "if someone is really well off, they probably deserve it because they've worked so hard for it", there is a limit after which any differences can only be attributed to luck, lineage or methods that most would be reluctant to call "hard work". (Sorry for the rant, but I was really shocked when I read this. 'guy x has a Benz, guy y has 3 Lambos and a Ferrari - so guy y works a lot harder'?!)
i don't attribute everything to "hard work", but of course hard work definitely plays a certain role. i believe if you work hard, you'll definitely at least get somewhere better :p and being a car enthusiast, i really want to work hard to be able to one day (ONE DAYYYYYYYY.) afford such luxuries.
On November 10 2013 10:55 itsjustatank wrote: they have their money, it is their property.
getting into 'deserving' property is getting into some marxism. go ahead and take it from them, if you can.
hmm i don't really get this?
On November 10 2013 13:11 FractalsOnFire wrote: Frankly I would trade in the car I have just to get their kind of public transport system in Singapore. Its obvious why the price of a car is expensive considering how small the country is and the population density.
If you really want to drive around everywhere, come to Australia and live here. You need a car if you want to get anywhere (in most cities).
Also this post is feeding my stereotype that Singaporeans only care about status and are status obsessed, i.e Singaporeans are all 'kia su'
yeah i would definitely love to drive in other countries. singapore is so small there actually isn't much places to really enjoy your drive...
nah we're not (i'm not even singaporean anyway). it's just that my interest is kind of unfortunately expensive here lol ;;;
On November 10 2013 14:04 GhoSt[shield] wrote: How does the COE affect the taxi industry in Singaopore?
not too much. there are already quite a lot of taxis in singapore, most of the fleet was replaced with newer models of hyundai sonatas and toyota corollas back around 2008-2009. the only thing is taxis and regular cars (<1600cc) share the same COE, so that period of time caused a rise in COE again, which of course indirectly negatively affected potential car buyers. taxis are also generally replaced every 10 years or so (and most cars in general) because there is a COE rebate (returns on "unused" duration of the COE) as well as a rebate called PARF that is based on the OMV of the car. once beyond the 10 year cycle, the rebate amount gets significantly less.
however, there are quite a few businessmen or expats who don't buy a car here because even if one takes a cab everyday throughout the year, that cost is still cheaper than owning a car itself. the problem with this is that many people (whom i've personally talked to, and even as reported in the papers) want to own a car instead of using others', such as via riding a cab, car leasing or car-pooling. it's more about the desire of ownership than anything, but of course most people have practicality in mind. it's a very particular situation in singapore QQ
well IMO trains and buses should suffice for many of us (I stay opposite the MRT station) but assuming you are from a rich family living in some deserted landed property I could see why you would need car if the nearest bus stop is 15 min away.
I remember reading that Singapore has the highest density of millionaires in the world or something. I vaguely remember MRT and bus being not too bad. Although I'm from London, so well, it's hard to have worse public transport.
On November 10 2013 18:31 MoonfireSpam wrote: I remember reading that Singapore has the highest density of millionaires in the world or something. I vaguely remember MRT and bus being not too bad. Although I'm from London, so well, it's hard to have worse public transport.
Ahh kia su. Haven't heard that for so long.
yes it's true :o
public transport has gotten worse over the years though (mostly because of a huge influx of foreigners/population increase), many of the "we-need-them-now" issues will only be resolved by earliest 2016 :<
On November 10 2013 18:31 MoonfireSpam wrote: I remember reading that Singapore has the highest density of millionaires in the world or something. I vaguely remember MRT and bus being not too bad. Although I'm from London, so well, it's hard to have worse public transport.
Ahh kia su. Haven't heard that for so long.
yes it's true :o
public transport has gotten worse over the years though (mostly because of a huge influx of foreigners/population increase), many of the "we-need-them-now" issues will only be resolved by earliest 2016 :<
And by 2016 chances are more issues will arise because there are more people coming in.
On November 10 2013 14:04 GhoSt[shield] wrote: How does the COE affect the taxi industry in Singaopore?
not too much. there are already quite a lot of taxis in singapore, most of the fleet was replaced with newer models of hyundai sonatas and toyota corollas back around 2008-2009. the only thing is taxis and regular cars (<1600cc) share the same COE, so that period of time caused a rise in COE again, which of course indirectly negatively affected potential car buyers. taxis are also generally replaced every 10 years or so (and most cars in general) because there is a COE rebate (returns on "unused" duration of the COE) as well as a rebate called PARF that is based on the OMV of the car. once beyond the 10 year cycle, the rebate amount gets significantly less.
however, there are quite a few businessmen or expats who don't buy a car here because even if one takes a cab everyday throughout the year, that cost is still cheaper than owning a car itself. the problem with this is that many people (whom i've personally talked to, and even as reported in the papers) want to own a car instead of using others', such as via riding a cab, car leasing or car-pooling. it's more about the desire of ownership than anything, but of course most people have practicality in mind. it's a very particular situation in singapore QQ
So if people sell off their cars for the COE rebate after the 10 years, whats the used car market like? Can you get some sick deals on used 10 year old Singaporean cars? I'd like to dream that its possible to get a 10 year old supercar for dirt cheap when a millionaire sells it. 10 year old GTR yes plz. Does Singapore export these 10 year old, COE rebated cars? Hmmm, if only I wasnt working on a paper due on Thursday.
On November 10 2013 14:04 GhoSt[shield] wrote: How does the COE affect the taxi industry in Singaopore?
not too much. there are already quite a lot of taxis in singapore, most of the fleet was replaced with newer models of hyundai sonatas and toyota corollas back around 2008-2009. the only thing is taxis and regular cars (<1600cc) share the same COE, so that period of time caused a rise in COE again, which of course indirectly negatively affected potential car buyers. taxis are also generally replaced every 10 years or so (and most cars in general) because there is a COE rebate (returns on "unused" duration of the COE) as well as a rebate called PARF that is based on the OMV of the car. once beyond the 10 year cycle, the rebate amount gets significantly less.
however, there are quite a few businessmen or expats who don't buy a car here because even if one takes a cab everyday throughout the year, that cost is still cheaper than owning a car itself. the problem with this is that many people (whom i've personally talked to, and even as reported in the papers) want to own a car instead of using others', such as via riding a cab, car leasing or car-pooling. it's more about the desire of ownership than anything, but of course most people have practicality in mind. it's a very particular situation in singapore QQ
So if people sell off their cars for the COE rebate after the 10 years, whats the used car market like? Can you get some sick deals on used 10 year old Singaporean cars? I'd like to dream that its possible to get a 10 year old supercar for dirt cheap when a millionaire sells it. 10 year old GTR yes plz. Does Singapore export these 10 year old, COE rebated cars? Hmmm, if only I wasnt working on a paper due on Thursday.
Second-hand market has actually quite a lot of good deals. Cars that just had their COE renewed/recently bought (meaning 10 years left in their COE) are only around 1-5% cheaper, but cars can be up to 50% or more cheaper after just 2-3 years! For example, a BMW Z4 3.0 bought in 2009 can be bought for under $100k, when the original value is around $280k. Do take note that price back then may differ greatly from current price, largely due to COE prices. Cars bought around 2009 are dirt cheap as the COE difference between 2009 and 2013 is almost 80-90k.
Older cars (10+ years) can be bought very cheaply as well, there are some cars that can even be bought under 5k! Just that not many people buy them so they are scrapped, mainly due to the fact that Singaporeans (and asians in general) tend to hold face value highly.
Singapore rarely exports the older cars, but from what I heard, they do sometimes export old cars that are in decent condition to second-hand car dealers in developing countries rather than scrapping them to get some more value out of them.
What makes a public transport system bad? Poor coverage? Poor punctuality? Poor capacity?
Because lets be honest, London and Singapore would have some of the world's best public transport systems since you can get to most places where you want without walking a ridiculous distance (let alone wait).
Or are we playing the 'we have it bad cause it aint what it used to be' or 'im spoiled so i expect better and then thus exaggerate everything'.
On November 10 2013 18:31 MoonfireSpam wrote: I remember reading that Singapore has the highest density of millionaires in the world or something. I vaguely remember MRT and bus being not too bad. Although I'm from London, so well, it's hard to have worse public transport.
Ahh kia su. Haven't heard that for so long.
yes it's true :o
public transport has gotten worse over the years though (mostly because of a huge influx of foreigners/population increase), many of the "we-need-them-now" issues will only be resolved by earliest 2016 :<
Singapore has the highest density of millionaires because rich people migrate here to evade taxes. Singapore does not tax capital gains on stock/derivatives and 20% off salary only. the thing is rich people just get a Singaporean IC and park their money on freaking shares and such. Hell if you read the influx of hedge funds in Singapore its pretty crazy. You would think so much money flowing in here would add some GDP gains or some value into society but no not really i heard the fundies bitch over a cab fare or coffee prices
On November 17 2013 00:31 FractalsOnFire wrote: What makes a public transport system bad? Poor coverage? Poor punctuality? Poor capacity?
Because lets be honest, London and Singapore would have some of the world's best public transport systems since you can get to most places where you want without walking a ridiculous distance (let alone wait).
Or are we playing the 'we have it bad cause it aint what it used to be' or 'im spoiled so i expect better and then thus exaggerate everything'.
during rush hours the public transport is terrible. not so much because of the infrastructure, but more so on the lack to plan ahead by the government a decade ago, as well as huge influx of foreigners. such a small land with a small capacity limit, yet when the government lacks care for the people and continues to bring in rich foreigners (see above post), people do get pissed. not to mention constant floodings in roads every year (millions of dollars worth of cars destroyed) which they refuse to admit as flooding ("ponding" that happens every 50 years, real quote by government), trains breaking down during rush hour every 2 months, trains being so packed there are cases of people fainting due to lack of oxygen etc. how is that first-world transportation?
it may seem like one of the surface, but take the public transport every day as part of your daily routine. you will see why everyone's so pissed at it.
EPT
Especially when nice old classic cars such as the Ferrari 308 Dino GT4 can cost only 10k in the US (almost 100k in Singapore..)
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