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So this Tim Kreider dude is sick of all y'all asking him to write shit fo free.
I shouldn't be even halfway as angry about this as I am; certainly not enough to dust off my keyboard and put even an ounce of effort into writing about it, but it is satisfying to feel the hot and tingly snark juices flowing again. So, in no particular order:
- Jesus Christ, man, do you have no grasp of supply and demand? Because plug your ears and chant that it's all some sort of plutocratic conspiracy all you like, shit really does work like that. Roughly. Get any more complicate than that and yeah, your economic theories get real mushy real quick. But still, you're engaged in an activity which millions upon millions of talentless shmucks are also laboring at in some capacity or another, many simply out of vanity or simple personal enjoyment, and you expect to get paid? If there are thousands (tens of thousands? more?) who would pay to get their writing noticed (and there are), is it any surprise that there are hordes who are more than happy to do it gratis?
- Given that people have in fact managed to make money on the internet selling music, hideuous hand-made baby bonnets, and yes, even playing video games, I suspect that maybe, just maybe, that there is something wrong with the writing business (and by extension, the writer in question), rather than the internet as a whole. And to be sure, this is largely a structural problem. Nearly everyone in the universe who wants, at least in some vague way, to write for a living is still yoked to the notion that you have to Get Published if you wanna make it; you need the Man to hand you a check for your work or dad's not gonna think you've got a real job, or whatever. You won't be a real grown-up until someone tells you that you are. I don't know how we veered into fake psychoanalysis, but the point holds--the internet means you don't need an intermediary between yourself and your audience; indeed, those middlemen are caught in a bloodbath / consolidation wave that isn't going to be ending any time soon. Yes, going solo a la Day9 or anyone selling their music on Bandcamp or whatever is scary, and yes it requires that you spend a serious chunk of time promoting yourself rather than actually writing, and yes that probably strikes Kreider as quite icky and something to be avoided at all costs. But Jesus Christ on a bike, man, your job ain't gonna be all rainbows all the time; you're gonna have to do at least some shit you don't like (hopefully only some). You do not need the imprimatur of the New York Times or Random House or your fucking dad to be a Real Writer; you need a keyboard, and that's literally it. Getting paid is another matter entirely, but Twitter is free and you can't tell me you've actually got the interest or brainpower or stamina to literally just crank out prose for 12 hours a day, so wank a little less, tweet a little more, and in a couple of years you'll probably still be broke, but the odds were gonna be stacked way the hell against you making it as a writer 100 years ago, it's unclear why you'd expect them to be any better now.
- "I will freely admit that writing beats baling hay or going door-to-door for a living, but it’s still shockingly unenjoyable work." You don't like your job, and you're not getting paid to do it? But you're still sticking with it? Are you insane? Like, actually? Christ, get a new job if you really, truly hate writing, and if you don't, pipe down. Because sure, writing is hard (some writing, anyway; with a bottle of Sierra and a target this broad, I ain't even breakin' a sweat (and it shows in the unquality, I'm sure)), but that in no ways makes it a more virtuous endeavor. Indeed, if your job is hard, you'd probably be better compensated for figuring out how to make it less hard (hint: robots), but shutting up and getting on with it will at least pay better than sketching yourself as some sort of Sisyphus, somehow both heroic and pathetic at the same time.
And yeah, I know the economics of selling things on the internet is just a wee bit more complicated than I make it out to be. Whatever. And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go stick some more pins in my Trap voodoo doll (Byul hwaiting!)
  
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shrinking add revenue through internet + tons of people who want to do "something with media" = no $$$
E: I think texts like these are just the expression of a shifting market. good journalism will not vanish and people will be paid in the future to write because good writing is something valuable. But without adapting people will fail. hard.
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Russian Federation3632 Posts
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting
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On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting
Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write.
Also, about supply and demand. There is NEVER demand for writing. No one is yearning for the next big hit. There is no niche to fill with art that is obvious. Art is wholly creative. I take serious issue with a lot of your argument here dude.
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On October 28 2013 05:25 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write. Also, about supply and demand. There is NEVER demand for writing. No one is yearning for the next big hit. There is no niche to fill with art that is obvious. Art is wholly creative. I take serious issue with a lot of your argument here dude.
OP isn't arguing much about the demand of writing. He's arguing about the supply. The supply is constant, there are tons of people who will create just for the purpose of creating - and until you've gotten your creations to the point where people demand YOUR creation specifically, you aren't going to have enough meaningful demand to make tons of money off of it. This applies whether you "Get Published" or just hit internet stardom with a big enough following to generate meaningful ad revenues.
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good journalism has already vanished
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This guy is kind of amusing. It's simple supply and demand. There will always be a ton of supply, everyone wants to make it as a artistic creator of some sort, so the pay will always suck.
Very similar to the video game development field, everyone wants to do it for some reason so the companies can exploit that to the fullest.
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On October 28 2013 10:58 KillerSOS wrote:
This guy is kind of amusing. It's simple supply and demand. There will always be a ton of supply, everyone wants to make it as a artistic creator of some sort, so the pay will always suck.
Very similar to the video game development field, everyone wants to do it for some reason so the companies can exploit that to the fullest.
same with working in a zoo..
thought i wanted to work as an animal keeper in a zoo for a large portion of my life... until i learned they generally make less than a McDonalds manager...even tho generally have at LEASt a bachelors degree and usually a masters degree...
Turns out awsome jobs... dont have to have awsome pay... and money is very important to living...especially if you dont live with your parents...
growing up blows... i make good money..and hate my job..but i wanted to move out of my parents so I took the job... and now I have a house payment so I need to keep said job... (tho i am still banking close to 1k a month after expenses every month)...
meh sry im rambling/venting now
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Russian Federation3632 Posts
On October 28 2013 05:25 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write.
everything you say here is (probably) true. that doesn't change that fact that his writing is worth as much what people are paying him
see: http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/
being highly educated doesn't mean your skills will be in particularly high demand
There is NEVER demand for writing. No one is yearning for the next big hit.
this is delusional
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holy fk this is a text wall. i wish a writer/editor would break it up and make it more pleasing to read.
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On October 28 2013 11:54 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 10:58 KillerSOS wrote:
This guy is kind of amusing. It's simple supply and demand. There will always be a ton of supply, everyone wants to make it as a artistic creator of some sort, so the pay will always suck.
Very similar to the video game development field, everyone wants to do it for some reason so the companies can exploit that to the fullest. same with working in a zoo.. thought i wanted to work as an animal keeper in a zoo for a large portion of my life... until i learned they generally make less than a McDonalds manager...even tho generally have at LEASt a bachelors degree and usually a masters degree... Turns out awsome jobs... dont have to have awsome pay... and money is very important to living...especially if you dont live with your parents... growing up blows... i make good money..and hate my job..but i wanted to move out of my parents so I took the job... and now I have a house payment so I need to keep said job... (tho i am still banking close to 1k a month after expenses every month)... meh sry im rambling/venting now
I guess getting a house was a mistake... (tho you are still banking close to 1k a month after expenses every month)...
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On October 28 2013 12:51 419 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 05:25 docvoc wrote:On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write. everything you say here is (probably) true. that doesn't change that fact that his writing is worth as much what people are paying him see: http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/being highly educated doesn't mean your skills will be in particularly high demand this is delusional
I disagree that writing is worth as much as what people are paying. Writers sometimes take time to get discovered. Talent isn't always recognized right away. The publishing market is FAR from 100% efficient. There are plenty of writers who languished in obscurity, until they had one big hit, and then suddenly their previous writing became worth a ton. JK Rowling was paid fking peanuts for her first Harry Potter book until the kid or grandkid (can't remember) of an editor at a major publishing house recommended it. Then she suddenly got a big book deal, a proper promotion, and she went on to become a billionaire. Innumerable books that are now considered "classics" sold modestly while their authors were still alive. Edgar Allen Poe is a famous example.
Although, I completely agree that it is delusional as hell to say there is never demand for writing.Editors are constantly desperate for that next great book to hit their desk. That's why they sit around every freaking day going through a massive slush pile hoping to find a gem. Whoever the OP is, they certainly haven't ever gotten published or spent much time talking to editors/agents, which makes me wonder why the OP ever bothered to comment on the matter at all.
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On October 28 2013 17:26 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 12:51 419 wrote:On October 28 2013 05:25 docvoc wrote:On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write. everything you say here is (probably) true. that doesn't change that fact that his writing is worth as much what people are paying him see: http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/being highly educated doesn't mean your skills will be in particularly high demand There is NEVER demand for writing. No one is yearning for the next big hit. this is delusional I disagree that writing is worth as much as what people are paying. Writers sometimes take time to get discovered. Talent isn't always recognized right away. The publishing market is FAR from 100% efficient. There are plenty of writers who languished in obscurity, until they had one big hit, and then suddenly their previous writing became worth a ton. JK Rowling was paid fking peanuts for her first Harry Potter book until the kid or grandkid (can't remember) of an editor at a major publishing house recommended it. Then she suddenly got a big book deal, a proper promotion, and she went on to become a billionaire. Innumerable books that are now considered "classics" sold modestly while their authors were still alive. Edgar Allen Poe is a famous example. Although, I completely agree that it is delusional as hell to say there is never demand for writing.Editors are constantly desperate for that next great book to hit their desk. That's why they sit around every freaking day going through a massive slush pile hoping to find a gem. Whoever the OP is, they certainly haven't ever gotten published or spent much time talking to editors/agents, which makes me wonder why the OP ever bothered to comment on the matter at all.
Which is why I'd love to see what, if anything, would change if there were some sort of editor-free publishing platform that could fill the sort of roll that Youtube / Twitch do for video. Yeah, pretty big chance it just turns into a giant morass of shit that you can't find anything decent in the middle of, but still. It'd be interesting to see whether raw popularity could percolate up out of something like that better than the current model.
Anyway, I was definitely thinking more about op-ed slots in the NY Times or whatever in regards to supply / demand for writing. Sure, maybe art or whatever kind of creates its own demand, at least the really great works. But there's certainly generalized demand for, say, sci-fi or literary fiction or whatever, and there is undeniably demand for things to slot into the opinion pages of a newspaper, and far far more writing available to do the filling.
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On October 29 2013 18:02 trashman wrote:
Which is why I'd love to see what, if anything, would change if there were some sort of editor-free publishing platform that could fill the sort of roll that Youtube / Twitch do for video.
Every heard of blogs?
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On October 29 2013 18:02 trashman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:26 SongByungWewt wrote:On October 28 2013 12:51 419 wrote:On October 28 2013 05:25 docvoc wrote:On October 27 2013 13:51 419 wrote:
poor guy can't realize that his writing has exactly the value that people are willing to pay him, much like my posting Except he's a professional whose writing is indescribably more important and better formulated. There is a big difference between what you and he write. everything you say here is (probably) true. that doesn't change that fact that his writing is worth as much what people are paying him see: http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/being highly educated doesn't mean your skills will be in particularly high demand There is NEVER demand for writing. No one is yearning for the next big hit. this is delusional I disagree that writing is worth as much as what people are paying. Writers sometimes take time to get discovered. Talent isn't always recognized right away. The publishing market is FAR from 100% efficient. There are plenty of writers who languished in obscurity, until they had one big hit, and then suddenly their previous writing became worth a ton. JK Rowling was paid fking peanuts for her first Harry Potter book until the kid or grandkid (can't remember) of an editor at a major publishing house recommended it. Then she suddenly got a big book deal, a proper promotion, and she went on to become a billionaire. Innumerable books that are now considered "classics" sold modestly while their authors were still alive. Edgar Allen Poe is a famous example. Although, I completely agree that it is delusional as hell to say there is never demand for writing.Editors are constantly desperate for that next great book to hit their desk. That's why they sit around every freaking day going through a massive slush pile hoping to find a gem. Whoever the OP is, they certainly haven't ever gotten published or spent much time talking to editors/agents, which makes me wonder why the OP ever bothered to comment on the matter at all. Which is why I'd love to see what, if anything, would change if there were some sort of editor-free publishing platform that could fill the sort of roll that Youtube / Twitch do for video. Yeah, pretty big chance it just turns into a giant morass of shit that you can't find anything decent in the middle of, but still. It'd be interesting to see whether raw popularity could percolate up out of something like that better than the current model. Anyway, I was definitely thinking more about op-ed slots in the NY Times or whatever in regards to supply / demand for writing. Sure, maybe art or whatever kind of creates its own demand, at least the really great works. But there's certainly generalized demand for, say, sci-fi or literary fiction or whatever, and there is undeniably demand for things to slot into the opinion pages of a newspaper, and far far more writing available to do the filling.
Kobo, Amazon's ebook publishing, self-publishing... blogs, personal websites, twitter, the list goes on and on. As a writer, it irritates me to no end when people who have no involvement in or understanding of the writing industry try to comment on it.
And there is plenty of demand for NYT op-eds. The NYT goes out of their way the MAJORITY of the time to invite a person to write an op-ed for them. They sure as hell do not sit there with a giant slush pile of op-eds and read through them for the one they want. So, again, your whole idea of there being no demand is just silly. There is high demand. It's just a very exclusive group that is in demand, and getting to that exclusive group is a torturous process that most fail at. But the supply of exclusive, desired opinions is actually smaller than the demand. I know people who regularly turn down offers by the media to do op-eds for them. Because they're celebrities. And there are far more lucrative places to spend their time. The OP-Eds are usually something they use when they want to get the word out on something, while the media outlets are only too happy to give them the air time.
Honestly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. At all. And I mean that in the politest way possible.
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I'm glad you've heard of the immortal and immuable law of supply and demand, you're just so smart it's pretty incredible.
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EPT
