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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
On September 19 2013 10:02 farvacola wrote: Thieving Magpie, sometimes your posts make my head hurt, but this one did not. Good stuff  I feel the same way. Nice blog, man. edit: I've watched that video of Kiante and the Tank like 1000x hahahahahahahhaa | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
I do feel there are several ways to make it more difficult without butchering or hacking the AI. You could make subtle adjustments to the pathing so that units settle in different ways. Add more micro tricks which come about through the use of stop (Blizzard intentionally patched viking/overlord flowers)... The other thing that bugs me and which should be REMOVED are the two damage types. Remove those, and you've removed much of the counter system. I think giving all units viability against different compositions, (and then adjusting unit abilities/attack animation interruption/micro potential would add a lot more depth into the game. It's just the lack of DEPTH, man...I talked a lot about increasing the macro baseline, this talk about unit micro is the opposite end of the spectrum. Requiring multiple control groups, requiring you to send your drones to mine, in my mind these are all good things that reward the faster player. Being able to do this AND macro would still make the game have much more depth. Everything is just too 1 dimensional. You claim that BW units weren't the key element - and that pathing is. Within the realm of SC2, I have to disagree with this sentiment. There are just SO many things that could be changed to make the game more rewarding for the mechanically stronger player without breaking the fluid/modern nature of the game. Highgorund/lowground advantage/actually allowing units to hold positions (it can be done with numbers FFS, and game mechanics)... Half the zerg upgrades increase unit speed. Imagine if they gave units more utility/dynamics? Many of the most dynamic upgrades for the other races were removed. Don't even get me started on WG or FF. And then there's the economy. There's all this talk about PATHING...but there is so much OUTSIDE the realm of pathing that was either poorly done or OVERLOOKED by the developers that could alleviate much of these problems. Falling talks a lot about the three "power units." Imagine if their damage types were removed! I would welcome a return to explosive/normal damage for what it's worth. Honestly what you're neglecting to mention (it is somewhat beyond the scope of the article, but it is relevant because you are at the core comparing the two games) is that, beyond the pathing engine, how more tastefully designed units are in BW. And never, NEVER forget or understate the rework of macro. That is by far the biggest change. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Gaius Baltar
United States449 Posts
In the early years of WoL, great analysis pieces like this were a regular part of the TL experience, but it's rare to see one these days. I always admired how much the authors cared about the future of the game, and how they hoped they could make SC2 just that much better through their words. But nobody really writes these anymore, and to me it reflects the loss of hope for the future of SC2 you see many places in the community now. Even this piece, as great as it is, avoided making suggestions to the game going forward. Still, thanks a lot to TM. Best design blog in ages. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
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wingpawn
Poland1342 Posts
I don't play SC2, but I watch it from time to time, mixing it with BroodWar. From this perspective, what I miss the most as a spectator is what I would call "situational advantage" that sometimes makes the outcome of engagements different that you could expect. As in chess, some of the beauty in every game lies within it's ability to create paradoxical situations where pigs fly, pawns are better than queens and 2 > 4. Best example: + Show Spoiler + This build was scouted by Stork and appropriately countered in terms of unit composition, but it was still not enough due to sheer brilliance of the execution by Jaedong. The thing is that in BroodWar, extra effort put into a purely mechanical control of otherwise glitchy units hugely enchanced their capabilities. We don't see that much of it in SC2. In this game, the units are already doing great "on their own", because... well, the game is simply better designed. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On September 19 2013 14:53 Qwyn wrote: The other thing that bugs me and which should be REMOVED are the two damage types. Remove those, and you've removed much of the counter system. I think giving all units viability against different compositions, (and then adjusting unit abilities/attack animation interruption/micro potential would add a lot more depth into the game. Huh? Broodwar's damage system works on a very similar basis except it's easier to tweak specific things in SC2. Tanks don't do 70 damage to everything, they only do half for zealots. Sorry, they do 35 to normal units and 70 to 'armoured' units like dragoons. I have never understood why this is ever seen as a reasonable criticism to SC2 compared to BW. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 19 2013 17:54 iaguz wrote: Huh? Broodwar's damage system works on a very similar basis except it's easier to tweak specific things in SC2. Tanks don't do 70 damage to everything, they only do half for zealots. Sorry, they do 35 to normal units and 70 to 'armoured' units like dragoons. I have never understood why this is ever seen as a reasonable criticism to SC2 compared to BW. To underline his point, people should inform themselves: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
There are flaws with the BW pathing, like units clogging up ramps, and lack of teamwork to get out of situations, but these are not major issues, and units being a bit clunky in some situations is a modest price to pay for a vastly superior pathing overall. Because of the grid system, large units are not very agile, so when they get clumped up, they will automatically try to keep a distance to eachother. You call this bad pathing. I call this brilliant pathing, which creates a realistic battlefield, and which also simulates the clunkiness of large units, which makes smaller units more suited for assaulting through small spaces, which adds a strategic element that is realistic. Besides, the ramp issues could be fixed by just widening the ramps, but map makers have chosen not to, to preserve the strong defenders advantage and to maintain lurkers as a tactical tool to protect bases. As for the units, there's a lot more variety and depth in BW, where units can counter eachother, depending on the situation and how they're being used. Lurkers and marines are a good example. Dragoons and Vultures is another. This is the why BW have battles like this, and SC2 don't: If you look at this battle, there's so much microing going on, Flash dancing his tanks back and forth trying to maintain the distance to abuse the range advantage, and Bisu trying to move his dragoons in range to snipe tanks. Flash trying to mine up around Bisu's dragoons, and Bisu targeting down the mines individually. Flash even sent his scv to repair a tank at a certain part of the battle. You just don't see intense battles like this in SC2. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
I don't understand how you can say that the BW pathing is bad, when you have nothing bad to say about the SC2 pathing. Just because the SC2 pathing is more refined and smoother doesn't make it better. How often in a real war do you see tanks and marines running around glued to eachother in phalanx positioning? The SC2 pathing is silly, and I just could never accept it after having experienced BW. There are flaws with the BW pathing, like units clogging up ramps, and lack of teamwork to get out of situations, but these are not major issues, and units being a bit clunky in some situations is a modest price to pay for a vastly superior pathing overall. Seriously, without wishing to give offence, it's as though you didn't read the blog at all. "There are flaws with the BW pathing, like units clogging up ramps, and lack of teamwork to get out of situations, but these are not major issues" They weren't described as issues. They were identified as being instrumental - indispensible, even - in the emergence of tactical gameplay. Poor ramp/choke pathing was why small, well-positioned forces could seriously delay larger ones, ensuring that 'deathball' play was not the most efficient or effective strategy. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9497 Posts
Spotlighted. | ||
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xContagion
United States40 Posts
I never played or experienced BroodWar all the recent talk and VODs makes me want to install it. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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xContagion
United States40 Posts
On September 19 2013 23:35 Heartland wrote: It's a very nice and interesting blog post. It must have taken quite a while to put together. I think there is an interesting dynamic between the issues of BW as relating to it's greatness. What modern gamer would pick up a game with the pathfinding of BW now, after all? I guess this is why games now at all aren't to great. Back then, there was a passion for them and people had great ideas and created them no matter what. Now they're specifically designed for the people, half by them. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
On September 19 2013 23:41 xContagion wrote: I guess this is why games now at all aren't to great. Back then, there was a passion for them and people had great ideas and created them no matter what. Now they're specifically designed for the people, half by them. I think that's just wrong. There have been plenty of horrible games in the past, and plenty of great games now. | ||
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