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Broodwar and Starcraft 2 - Pathing - Page 3

Blogs > Thieving Magpie
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Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 15:24:03
September 19 2013 15:19 GMT
#41
Good blog, and I think you're right about both games' spectator highlights. Though it begs the question if people who enjoy soccer prefer Broodwar and if people who enjoy Poker prefer SC2 :p

Somehow I don't think so. I obviously can't speak for everyone but I enjoy watching poker as much as soccer, and in contrast watching SC2 is a sleeping pill compared to Broodwar. I mean when it comes to spectating, can anyone from the Broodwar era say they enjoy watching SC2 as much/more?
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
woreyour
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
582 Posts
September 19 2013 15:25 GMT
#42
I am a proud I have read all that, I wish my differential calculus book was written the same way.

I admire this well explained blog. You should be writing school books

Yes, this was the thing I was thinking, Broodwar was an accident turned great invention like many great discoveries, facinating!

Because of the old technology of moving units gets bigger and smaller in the grid world, while superior coding and animation made sc2 faster and smoother.

If blizzard would read this, maybe they could learn from this, I doubt it would change the current state of Sc2 or LoTV but now after this is written I wonder what blizzard will do to Starcraft 3? I am hoping they would try to mix them up? we would have easy and dumb units! yay!
I am so sexy.. I sometimes romance myself..
YourGoodFriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2197 Posts
September 19 2013 15:32 GMT
#43
Such great insight and knowledge dropped into this. I only played BGH maps in BW so had no idea about the block pathing and all of that. Great read!
anonymous is the most famous author that anyone can be
RuiBarbO
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States1340 Posts
September 19 2013 15:35 GMT
#44
Really excellent explanation, very clear, and (to my surprise) pretty neutral about SC2 and BW. Conceptually nothing caught me too off-guard but I'd never seen it organized in such a clear, methodical, and well-written way. I think the most important point I took from all of this is that SC2 casters and viewers often aren't looking at the things that make the game really interesting; that they're watching the way the players push their poker chips around instead of observing how they read and react to each other.
Can someone please explain/how water falls with no rain?
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 15:43:03
September 19 2013 15:39 GMT
#45

This was probably the only game where I could see many Brood War like micro. I mean there were games where I saw BW like micro but not the amount I saw in this game.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
September 19 2013 15:45 GMT
#46
Ah, it was SC2BW which implemented the 'pause if way blocked'. I think a less harsh 'slow down if obstructed' version might be even more palatable.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
September 19 2013 15:45 GMT
#47
Wow! Well, this will go into my budgeted reading time.... but is the ENTIRE 7.6k doctorate REALLY on pathing? :o
Easy 5/5.
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-19 16:29:06
September 19 2013 16:28 GMT
#48
Awesome blog. I still think high ground damage reduction has more impcat on the gameplay than you expect.
Total Annihilation Zero
Gorlin
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2753 Posts
September 19 2013 16:45 GMT
#49
Damn, nice job. I usually can't stand to read people try to argue one way or the other about Broodwar vs SC2, but this was incredibly well written.
Wertheron
Profile Joined October 2011
France439 Posts
September 19 2013 16:52 GMT
#50
Was a really good read. I'm happy to see an intelligent post about that, without the stupid mindset "BW is so much better" or "SC2 > BW".
It's a good analysis of how the game are different (not better or worst just... different).
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
September 19 2013 17:00 GMT
#51
Incredible read. Thanks for the efforts put into it.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
September 19 2013 17:02 GMT
#52
While I agree with most of what you said I don't agree it's all pathfinding. Ramps, sure, but not all battles happen on small ramps (and high ground advantage plays a big role because you are forced many times to move up the ramp instead of attack from below). I play both games and I don't find I have to baby-sit my units in bw in open field, and most of the map is open field in bw since there are no force fields that dictate map-design.

The units absolutely make a big difference. Playing zerg, lurkers+defilers are absolutely critical for map control. You think that a group of hydras can hold a ramp against m&m? Good luck. These units are what separate the zerg playstyles in both games, combined with the lack of muta micro in sc2. Hydras and lings are very fluid in BW as well so it's not the pathfinding. In ZvP lurkers need to be spread around and offer great positional control but are not easy to attack with, in ZvT lurker+defiler are used to push Terrans back slowly around the map and defend bases. This is in contrast to the all or nothing a-move ling-bane-muta attacks in sc2.

For terran, the synergy of medivac-marine-marauder encourages deathballing, whereas in BW with stronger tanks, and vultures and their mines, along with a lack of mech counter units like immortals promotes mech play. Stronger AOE units and overkill favour spreading out tank lines and pushing methodically towards the opponent, and fast and microable vultures promote harassment.

I won't touch protoss because I don't play them and because the issues with sc2 protoss have been repeated over and over in these forums.

I also don't agree with the SC2=strategy, BW=mechanics argument. All the strategy stuff you mentioned for SC2 applies to BW as well. ie postional play is even more important in BW than SC2, counters, concaves, pre-positioning and so on. What strategy element exists in SC2 that doesn't in BW? Or maybe you phrased this part wrong or I'm reading it incorrectly. Just because mechanics play a bigger part in BW doesn't mean it has less depth strategically, in fact I would argue the opposite as many of the unique micros and the positional units allow for greater strategic depth.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
TheGangle
Profile Joined September 2013
United States8 Posts
September 19 2013 17:10 GMT
#53
I really enjoyed reading this. I still own BW from when i first got it years ago but I never put the same time into BW as I did for SC2. Reading this blog helped me look at both BW and SC2 differently, and I love the fact that it is written well enough engage the community in discussion regarding its contents. Thank you for your insight good sir!
"I wish you big health" - Whitera
tar
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany991 Posts
September 19 2013 17:11 GMT
#54
wow, I didn't think one could present the differences between broodwar and sc2 gameplay as well as you did. wp and thanks for the great read.
whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu
Keeemy
Profile Joined November 2012
Finland7855 Posts
September 19 2013 17:11 GMT
#55
Hooolyyy shit what an amazing blog post.
Hello
jtp118
Profile Joined November 2010
United States137 Posts
September 19 2013 17:30 GMT
#56
wtf dude 5/5
Divine-Sneaker
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1225 Posts
September 19 2013 17:42 GMT
#57
10/5 if I could. Very good read and some highly interesting points.

I've had many times where I've talked to friends I was playing SC2 with about the differences from Brood War, and I always ended up with some longwinded explanation of how there were a much higher amount of basic tasks(movement, more clicks to macro/rally etc.) to be performed in BW, which meant that not even the top3 players in the world could do it all perfectly. In stark contrast to SC2 where the best players can often come very close to the perfect macro and not really have to suffer much when it comes to unit control.

I don't think I've seen a post that better elaborates on what I'd felt was the major difference, or in any way come close to explaining it better.

Best post/blog I've seen in a good while.
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
September 19 2013 17:48 GMT
#58
An amazing blog about pathing with bits of Patrick Wyatt in it !

I'd put 20/5 ! Great (holy... AMAZING) post !
LiquipediaWanderer
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
September 19 2013 17:48 GMT
#59
On September 20 2013 02:42 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
10/5 if I could. Very good read and some highly interesting points.

I've had many times where I've talked to friends I was playing SC2 with about the differences from Brood War, and I always ended up with some longwinded explanation of how there were a much higher amount of basic tasks(movement, more clicks to macro/rally etc.) to be performed in BW, which meant that not even the top3 players in the world could do it all perfectly. In stark contrast to SC2 where the best players can often come very close to the perfect macro and not really have to suffer much when it comes to unit control.

I don't think I've seen a post that better elaborates on what I'd felt was the major difference, or in any way come close to explaining it better.

Best post/blog I've seen in a good while.

If only Blizzard could read it and moreover understand the importance of it...
Pazuzu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States632 Posts
September 19 2013 17:56 GMT
#60
5/5 incredibly blog. sent it to all my friends
"It is because intuition is sometimes right, that we don't know what to do with it"
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