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This was actually a response to a thread over on r/dota2 (here), because of the recent tears flying around because of "Valve worrying more about cosmetics than the game" - I wanted to post it here though because I want to get a feel for some more of the SC2 community too. I've tried to edit it as best as possible, but if the general tone points towards me talking to you as a "Dota2 person" please excuse me if you aren't.
Thought I'd post some thoughts, as someone who has been casting SC2 for over 2 years now, to help with perspective for those of you who aren't involved in the SC2 scene. I'd also love to hear the thoughts of folks who are also into both SC2 and Dota2.
Valve's support, development and general growth of Dota2 is incredible to me. While yes there is the argument of "F2P vs Retail Box game is different stylistically in how you approach growth of the game", it amazes me how far ahead Valve/Dota2 seems compared to Blizzard and SC2. I actually look at some of the things that have been changed/implemented, etc etc and think "is... Blizzard in the past? Or is Valve in the future?". Sometimes I can't answer that question, purely because in all honesty it could be both.
Don't get me wrong, I freaking love SC2 and I'm not going to ditch it at all - some of the games that have recently gone on at IEM Shanghai have been brilliant, the community (in general...) is an awesome force, I've met amazing people, and pretty much all the Blizzard people I know are fucking champs. But jeez - the dirty, ugly things I would do to have Blizzard take some of the ideas that Valve has implemented in Dota2 and put them in SC2.
If you've never played SC2 before, let me enlighten you on some of the things that I feel would really help out in the growth of SC2, and show how great you "purely dota2 players" have it:
* The replay feature that was mentioned in this thread by JustSoZen has only JUST RECENTLY been put in SC2HOTS.
People like myself who've come from SCBW have been crying out for some kind of change to the system for almost 2 years before something was done to help facilitate things. And it's not just "because watching a game with my friend is awesome yo" but also for a person like myself who does a lot of commentary, I can't tell you how fucking frustrating dual-casting from replays used to be. Like many people mentioned in the reply posts to JustSoZen, if the Dota2 community posted on the dev forums asking for that same kind of feature; I wouldn't feel worried saying "you'll get that within a couple of months, at the latest". Not 2 years.
* Hats. Obviously not "LE HATZ LOL" like TF2, but I mean "hats" in the sense of the cosmetic microtransactions for Dota2. These astound me, because it's a beautiful balance, and it gives people a form of dedication to the game, and it makes them feel somewhat involved.
You know how much I've spent on SC2? I bought WOL collectors edition. ~$120 (if memory serves me right). I bought HOTS collectors edition, another $85 I think, roughly. I've paid for an MLG stream for good quality streaming access(once), about $10. So lets say all-in-all, about $220 roughly, there's probably stuff I've forgotten but whatever. How much have I spent on Dota2? I'm not sure, but I'm very sure it's at least $250. I don't buy cosmetics that much, but I've bought a bunch of tourney tickets, pennants for my favourite teams, and of course the amazing Compendium which I might talk about later.
Thing is; it's not all a mindset of "GIVE VALVE THE MONIES!" - but the last 2 items there; items that support the game itself. That's all, something simple and effective with customers (viewers/casual players) helping themselves, by helping the game. Why the absolute fuck can't I do that for SC2? When the "brand new and amazing" skin changes and DANCES FOR UNITS came into HotS they were some cool little additions. But you know in the end, it's a Zealot skin, a new pylon, that's basically it. I would fucking kill to have a Zealot with a top hat. I would LOVE to spend $2.50 on a logo for my Nexus to have a Team Liquid logo on it, have the TL boys grab a tiny bit of extra cash as a bi-product, and show a bit of my individuality.
There are purists out there who'll say "BUT DAT KILLZ THE LORE OMG". Or the competitive folks who are like "BUT DAT SHIT IS DISTRACTING!". Here's a thought: Blizzard could put a simple tick box in the personal settings that turns them off, if you're really that against it. (To be honest, it boggles my mind that this isn't in there now anyway, without even having a massive cosmetic database - the Speedlings skin is annoying as shit).
I mentioned beautiful balance with cosmetics: this is mainly directed at the fact that the cosmetics are purely that in Dota2. Just, cosmetic. They don't change gameplay at all, and apart from the millions crying out about how hilariously minimal the Lone Druid cauldron is - no one really complains about the way items look. The awesome hook I have for Pudge doesn't give him a blink, it doesn't give him special runes and shit that make him work better - all it does is make people ask for stupid trades that I'm never going to do. There is no pay to win, but it's not a game where my money sits stagnant in my wallet, unless I'm down at a barcraft or something, buying drinks that Blizzard has no part in. I want to support the game I love. I want to support the teams through the game I love.
* The facilities that make spectating and enjoying the game are brilliant. Not only for viewers, but also for tournament organisers and sponsors.
I don't want to say it again (for like the third time) but: Do you know how much I would kill for SC2 to have the "in-game client" perspective like Dota2 does? It's an incredible feature, and when I first experienced it I was just in awe. The first time I tried it out, I was like "wow this is really cool, I like the ability to control the camera, the directed camera (god if this was in SC2... even if only just for replays...), and hot dayum, a player perspective so I can see how to farm like a champ!" Then when Ti2 came around, I got to check out how smart the addition of having in-game commentary piped through the client was. I was actually sitting there for about 10 minutes saying "Are you serious? This is awesome".
There are a few reasons it could be a sketchy addition to SC2, but as again - put an option in to turn it off if need be. I mentioned that it's great for tournament organisers and sponsors - it took the community of people like TotalBiscuit and others to think to add in things like a "team sponsor bar" into their overlays to give the sponsors some recognition. Where is Blizzard's assistance in this? They say they want to help SC2 grow, and they generally have been helping, but sometimes it just feels like such impotent help compared to what Valve has been doing.
I'm actually going to be making a "this is how you use Dota2 in-client viewing" for my channel to post before Ti3 starts, because I know I have a lot of SC2 viewers who've never watched Dota2, and they'll certainly be taking a peek at Dota2 while Ti3 is on. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to that.
* The Compendium is one of the coolest things I've seen. Helps Valve, helps viewers and fans, helps teams, and it helps eSports.
Originally I saw the Compendium coming and I was like "An interesting look at a cash grab there" as I think some others were contemplating too. Then you look at how far it has come... it's one of the coolest things ever. Pay a little bit of cash - get some awesome reciprocity in the form of fun little cosmetic bonuses, the ablity to setup a fantasy team, player cards, predictions, etc etc etc. I can't even list them all because I've forgotten stuff and also I don't want to make that sentence too long.
Lets look at this in the dreaming eyes of someone from Starcraft.
The World Championship Series (WCS) begun earlier this year, where Blizzard stepped in to setup their own little league with a "central feeling" to storylines, player matches, and other random things. It's a cool idea. You know what? Lets bring in the WCS Handbook in-game.
Ok cool, $10 purchase, and I get to make predictions about how many times White-Ra makes carriers in WCS EU - when I say "every game" and I'm right, I get to give shit to my friends who got it wrong, and be proud of White-Ra for being a boss. I get to pick up a player card of EG.Huk that I can slot in alongside EG.Stephano and soon complete the set with the other EG boys. When Liquid`HerO wins WCS America, I can say "fuck yeah go HerO!" And buy a TL Pennant that I can attach to my SC2 profile, and then when I play my own SC2 games I will have a TL logo on my Nexus. 25c of the purchase goes to TL, that helps with HerO's ticket to Blizzcon later on. I feel good about contributing to one of my favourite teams, and it helps grow the game by getting a player closer to his own dream.
^ That's just off the top of my head, so hopefully no one will bite my head off for thinking too hard about it.
In the end, anyone in Dota2 who thinks "Volvo doing it rong, ded game, money cashgrab, pls disband" needs to step back, and take a look at the big picture. Things are much better than in some other places.
PS: I'm not mad at Blizzard, people at Blizzard, or raging in general - it's just frustrating. I WANT to be overjoyed by the features of SC2 like I am with Dota2. It's just hard sometimes to see things that are implemented in other games that I feel should really be in SC2. Then it's hilarious to see some people in the Dota2 community complaining about the state of Dota2.
To end with a metaphor: it's like being a kid, and you look over the fence and see that your neighbour has a pool. My parents (Blizzard/Activision) make enough money for a pool, but for some reason they just don't want to get one. Then, out of the back door comes the whiney complainer kid that claims that they hate the pool and they actually want an ice-rink instead.
 
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free games make people spoiled.
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Who does it spoil? The creators making massive amounts of profit? (which is the point of a business) - or the players indulging in micro transactions?
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Brazil1429 Posts
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do.
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On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do.
You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right?
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Brazil1429 Posts
On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right?
What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2?
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Here's a thought: Blizzard could put a simple tick box in the personal settings that turns them off, if you're really that against it.
A simple box won`t do, I want everything pure except zealots ... with hats^^!+ Show Spoiler +I really like that idea, they could look as cute as murlocs, hope it is something they consider for the CE of Lotv
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On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2?
You said nothing of the sort.
Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right?
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Brazil1429 Posts
On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right?
How?
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These threads are getting really boring, please read the last 100 threads about this topic, I'm pretty sure everything that has to be said about this whole thing has already been said.
edit:
Sorry that I expressed it in such a rude way, your text was enjoyable to read and you put effort into it. But it really isn't a new thing, threads like this pop up every month or so. If you enjoy Dota, support Dota. If you enjoy Starcraft, support Starcraft.
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@Bommes, whilst I can understand where you are coming from, the other side of the coin is kinda proving Duck's point. Dozens of these threads have come and gone and still we hear nothing from Blizzard in terms of whether they are even listening, whether they agree with the concepts or whether these changes are technically feasible. In essence Blizz seems to have a fairly similar model to Apple. Telling you to your face that they are working on wonderous things and just be patient, whilst at the same time what they actually give us are 'here, take it or leave it.'
Nobody doubts that they are working hard and doing the best they can. I think what we are trying to say is that their best is not as good as other people's best. Hence, until such time as Blizz gives an answer that settles this debate, or the SC2 community themselve come out and say they don't care about this debate, then people have an obligation to continually remind Blizz how they can improve. It's not about lampooning Blizz, it's about continuing the dialogue until both parties are satisfied with the outcome.
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On July 28 2013 18:35 Bommes wrote:
These threads are getting really boring, please read the last 100 threads about this topic, I'm pretty sure everything that has to be said about this whole thing has already been said.
edit:
Sorry that I expressed it in such a rude way, your text was enjoyable to read and you put effort into it. But it really isn't a new thing, threads like this pop up every month or so. If you enjoy Dota, support Dota. If you enjoy Starcraft, support Starcraft.
I understand the sentiment, but I guess I'll drop a quote on you that I feel comes into play: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
I guess if you're happy with the state of SC2, do nothing. If you at least feel like expressing your opinion, then go for it. There's a reason this is a blog, and not it's own thread in the general section - I know this has been done before, but a) I felt like sharing my thoughts, as someone who's passionate about both games to a deep extent, and b) I know that people have heard things akin to this post before - so it's a blog post, and there's no need to be negative about me expressing my opinion.
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On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right?
Emphasis on micro instead of macro, no massive armies, low production...
Competitive WC3 is nothing like SC:BW.
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On July 29 2013 03:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right? Emphasis on micro instead of macro, no massive armies, low production... Competitive WC3 is nothing like SC:BW.
Thats because its called warcraft. If it was trying to be starcraft then there would be some mad nerds. But its called warcraft.. a completely different game.
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On July 29 2013 08:34 Entertaining wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 03:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right? Emphasis on micro instead of macro, no massive armies, low production... Competitive WC3 is nothing like SC:BW. Thats because its called warcraft. If it was trying to be starcraft then there would be some mad nerds. But its called warcraft.. a completely different game.
Exactly...so when shostakovich is ranting about SC2 "interrupted tradition", he's blatantly ignoring that WC1 is nothing like WC2, which is nothing like SC1, which is nothing like WC3, which is nothing like SC2.
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On July 29 2013 10:01 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 08:34 Entertaining wrote:On July 29 2013 03:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right? Emphasis on micro instead of macro, no massive armies, low production... Competitive WC3 is nothing like SC:BW. Thats because its called warcraft. If it was trying to be starcraft then there would be some mad nerds. But its called warcraft.. a completely different game. Exactly...so when shostakovich is ranting about SC2 "interrupted tradition", he's blatantly ignoring that WC1 is nothing like WC2, which is nothing like SC1, which is nothing like WC3, which is nothing like SC2.
It's called sc2, so scbw IS its tradition. If it's called sth like spacewar then all is fine, but that's not the case is it.
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On July 29 2013 12:11 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 10:01 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 29 2013 08:34 Entertaining wrote:On July 29 2013 03:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 18:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:50 shostakovich wrote:On July 28 2013 17:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 28 2013 17:26 shostakovich wrote:
I loved SC:BW and Warcraft 3 Melee, but I only played the SC2 campaign. As soon as I noticed the DRM I knew something was wrong, but still gave a shot to see if the game was good.
Another problem that plagues the game is that Blizzard interrupted the tradition. Look at Dota 2. It's almost a perfect copy of Wc3 DotA. Everything that was discovered and developed on Wc3 DotA works on Dota 2. Every little aspect of gameplay and metagame stuff is preserved and they still make it bigger by adding new heroes and items. But what Blizzard did was like "resetting" Starcraft. Why did they decided to ignore the tradition? Why not expanding from what already existed instead of doing something from scratch? Sometimes I have the feeling that Blizzard don't understand their own game, nor that they love the game as much as we do. You do realize that both Starcraft 1 and WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of WC1+2, right? What kind of player-built tradition in competitive gaming existed on WC1+2? You said nothing of the sort. Regardless, let me amend that: You do realize that WC3 completely stomped on the "tradition" of SC:BW, right? Emphasis on micro instead of macro, no massive armies, low production... Competitive WC3 is nothing like SC:BW. Thats because its called warcraft. If it was trying to be starcraft then there would be some mad nerds. But its called warcraft.. a completely different game. Exactly...so when shostakovich is ranting about SC2 "interrupted tradition", he's blatantly ignoring that WC1 is nothing like WC2, which is nothing like SC1, which is nothing like WC3, which is nothing like SC2. It's called sc2, so scbw IS its tradition. If it's called sth like spacewar then all is fine, but that's not the case is it.
A single game cannot be, by definition, "tradition".
The only real tradition is that Blizzard makes every single RTS (to quote shostakovich) "from scratch", and they've done that 5 games in a row.
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I stopped watching SC2 and started watching Dota2 because Valve is simply supporting the game better,
But at the same time, I'm not entirely satisfied with Valve releasing the game before all heroes from Dota1 was implemented.
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EPT
