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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I've had the (mis)fortune of having had to work with lawyers several times over the last few years, so I decided to write a short post listing out the little things that have proved valuable in working with them. This list is based entirely on personal experience and personal preferences, so take any information with a bucket full of salt.
Finding a Lawyer
There are two "good" ways to find a trustworthy, capable lawyer, assuming that the office of the lawyers that you usually use doesn't have a practice area for your legal soup de jour.
The first option is to talk to a lawyer who you have worked with in the past whose character and skills you trust, and ask for a reference. This obviously isn't foolproof, and I've had some poor experiences when my doctors have referred me to practitioners of other medical disciplines, but your batting average will likely be better than a shot in the dark or (god forbid) a stab at the Yellow Pages (do the Yellow Pages even exist anymore?).
The second option is to talk to a friend / acquaintance / business partner whose professional judgment and past use of legal advice you know and trust, and ask for a reference. Note that this shouldn't be any random friend, but someone you know to have sound sense and mileage using legal services. This should not be your dental hygienist (yes, my dental hygienist really did refer me to a lawyer. I accepted the information but went to a law office with whom my family has worked with in the past).
I'm actually not sure if asking for a referral from a friend who is a lawyer is an option that works. I have no evidence, but my instincts tell me that practicing law and knowing quality legal professionals in a different practice area are very different things. The issues are exacerbated if said friend is a relatively junior lawyer.
Compatibility
Some Lawyers are aggressive, and some are more "reasonable" in their approach. This is true whether you're dealing with a liability case, a tax law case, or anything else. There is always a range of strategies that can be pursued, and different lawyers will choose different parts of the specturm. Find one whose style fits your needs and / or your particular situational needs.
Preparation
When you call the law office and set up a consultation, ask her what materials you should bring that day. Having all the materials in front of you will make the conversation go much smoother.
You will likely have many documents, so be sure to label each with post-it notes as tabs and have a short cover letter that lists the contents of the set of documents that you have brought.
This organizing step will (a) help you refresh yourself about the scope of the case, and (b) cut down the time you'll be billed by the firm.
Refuse Their Offers to Come out to an Office Near You
Lawyers at big firms will sometimes offer to have meetings at an office closer to where you live or work, separate from their every day office. Refuse this offer and take the time to go to their regular office. Your lawyer will bill you for his travel time, and when you are paying hundreds of dollars per hour, this can really hurt your wallet.
Be Aware that Some Lawyers Have Pet Strategies and Arrangements
Each lawyer will have "pet strategies" that they like to use and suggest to their clients. Depending on your circumstance and the lawyer's inclinations, what they most strongly suggest may not be the optimal choice for you. It would be nice if we could place infinite trust in the services we hire, but the reality is that we often have to oversee the effort and make some judgment calls ourselves. This is true when hiring contractors to do work on your house, and is true when hiring lawyers.
Of course, we laymen can't hope to understand all the intricacies of certian complex legal structures or strategies, but getting high level information on the options available to you and forming your own thoughts on what might be best for your situation will be necessary to begin having a constructive conversation with your lawyer in order to figure out what is truly optimal for you. You can't depend on anyone but yourself to represent you in fighting for your best interests, even if you are paying them.
Addendum
Hopefully you're fortunate enough to never have to work with a lawyer, but keep some of these things in mind if you do. Even if you reject any or all of my suggestions (which is totally fine by me), just thinking about these issues in earest will be helpful.
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Crossposted from: http://www.hkmurakami.com/blog/
  
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Thanks for the advice, but I generally hope I don't have to use it!
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I used the company legal coverage optional "benefit" fir a year (like $7/mo?) and was assigned a lawyer to do my house closing as a covered service and had no issues. It really depends on what you need a lawyer for.
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On June 26 2013 19:32 thedeadhaji wrote:
I'm actually not sure if asking for a referral from a friend who is a lawyer is an option that works. I have no evidence, but my instincts tell me that practicing law and knowing quality legal professionals in a different practice area are very different things. The issues are exacerbated if said friend is a relatively junior lawyer.
I agree that asking a referral from a friend who is a lawyer is not necessarily the most useful. However, they can still give you an idea of what area of law your issue falls under and that can be helpful for a lay-person. Any type of free advice that you can get, even if taken with a grain of salt, is still nice.
Senior lawyers, at least in my city of 700k people, actually have a lot of knowledge about experts in different practice areas. I don't have any advice for getting in contact with those lawyers though.
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I am a lawyer and generally agree with these tips. However, if you have a friend who is a lawyer--junior or otherwise--and you trust this person's judgment in general, I think he or she would be a great resource in referring you to a good attorney. I refer cases that I am not comfortable with to other lawyers that I respect all the time. Usually these are people that I have had case AGAINST that were professional and competent. I have never had a friend tell me I sent them to someone bad--usually they are enthusiastic.
There are a ton more--maybe I should make my own post--but this is a good start.
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Why arent we charging for travel time...
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Thanks for the advice. I assume that you are from the US of A, thedeadhaji? 
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On June 27 2013 03:21 Mr. Black wrote:
I am a lawyer and generally agree with these tips. However, if you have a friend who is a lawyer--junior or otherwise--and you trust this person's judgment in general, I think he or she would be a great resource in referring you to a good attorney. I refer cases that I am not comfortable with to other lawyers that I respect all the time. Usually these are people that I have had case AGAINST that were professional and competent. I have never had a friend tell me I sent them to someone bad--usually they are enthusiastic.
There are a ton more--maybe I should make my own post--but this is a good start.
I'd love to read such a post!
(would even appreciate it if you'd pm me when you do write it, so that I don't miss it)
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On June 27 2013 03:21 Mr. Black wrote:
I am a lawyer and generally agree with these tips. However, if you have a friend who is a lawyer--junior or otherwise--and you trust this person's judgment in general, I think he or she would be a great resource in referring you to a good attorney. I refer cases that I am not comfortable with to other lawyers that I respect all the time. Usually these are people that I have had case AGAINST that were professional and competent. I have never had a friend tell me I sent them to someone bad--usually they are enthusiastic.
There are a ton more--maybe I should make my own post--but this is a good start.
If you have time, can you also post some tips about finding a lawyer for business formation and stuff? The only lawyer I know where I currently live is an ex-gf lol, so yeah, I don't have really good connections with anyone here yet.
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Its funny because my grandfather who was a big time lawyer in my city who dealt with property laws and immigrants from Germany and Jewish problems post WWII/Holocaust basically told me never to become a lawyer. Reading this made me think of him and that story.
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You can't depend on anyone but yourself to represent you in fighting for your best interests, even if you are paying them.
So true.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On June 27 2013 12:16 docvoc wrote:
Its funny because my grandfather who was a big time lawyer in my city who dealt with property laws and immigrants from Germany and Jewish problems post WWII/Holocaust basically told me never to become a lawyer. Reading this made me think of him and that story.
Curious, did you ever find out from him why he felt this way?
Also, if he was practicing in that era, Law and Finance were exceedingly white-shoe institutions. Perhaps he did not like how his profession evolved over the ensuing decades?
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The deadhaji I am really sorry you feel this way and had to write a post like this. I think there are many things that you should do to clear this post up and make it positive if you can.
1.) Competent lawyers in any city WILL know other good lawyers and usually the best lawyers in each field. If they cannot tell you who some of the best people are in each practice area you will know right away that they really don't know what they are doing. My mother has been practicing law for over 30 years and I am in law school for the coming year. If i asked her about any specific field she would tell me the best person for the job or if its something she never encounters at all, such as tax law because she does criminal defense she would know who to call and ask.
2.) The yellow pages are not really a good place to look for a lawyer anymore. I would stay away from any lawyer that has huge adds there or on any billboards. The best place to start is your lawyer friends. If you don't have any of those I would suggest looking at sites like:
avvo.com
This is one of the top sites that lists all the lawyers in each city and their ranking and stuff about them. Anyone with a score of a 10 should be someone who knows what the fuck they are doing. Whether they are worth what they charge you will have to do a little research to find out. Anyone above an 8 or 9 should be great also, just depends what you need the person for.
3.) Never use the family lawyer or someone who doesn't specialize in the given field. Just because you know someone who is a lawyer doesn't mean that the should be doing anything related to their case. As theDeadHaji pointed out you should get someone who knows what they are doing. The last thing you want is someone who fucks up your case and causes you tons of headaches.
4.) Great post about having your shit together. This makes things much easier for the lawyer and will get you off on the right foot. Most lawyers do not charge for the first hour or so when meeting with the client and getting everything setup. I would probably avoid any lawyer that wants some money just to meet with them.
5.) Not sure why you think having to meet with a lawyer is that bad. I actually think some people should meet with lawyers more and some should do it less. When people get speeding tickets and dui's they should call around and find a good lawyer to avoid fucking themselves in the future. Frivolous lawsuits should be done much less haha. As long as you find a well respected attorney you will be happy with the choice. Also by doing things in a timely manner and being super prepared you will save yourself lots of money. If you use the same attorney it is possible to get discounts as well. Meeting with a lawyer is not some dreaded experience.
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Another lawyer, doing essentially in-house counsel type work, where we utilize outside counsel quite a bit in the patent space.
General Advice:
1) Utilize fix fee models, whenever possible (that way you don't get billed for travel and other inane crap) or get estimates. Either way provide an upper limit that the attorney cannot exceed. If you must have hourly-billing demand estimates for the cost of work up front.
2) I agree with your points and those of the posters about using qualified counsel; ask folks in the area and make sure you get someone who specializes in your type of case. For instance, in my field, if we are filing a patent on an electrical device, it would not make sense to have someone with a PhD in biology draft the application.
3) Also, I don't know about charging for the initial consultation, but this should be free. Most law firms I know want your business and would not be in business, if they charged for this type of work.
4) If you see a charge you don't agree with ask for it to be waived. We are a big client, but even for individuals some charges can be waived (because again law firms care about their reputation and care about clients). This is especially true if its charge that you did not agree to!
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i hope aaron hernandez gets advise like this because it don't look very good for him
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Evidence tampering, murder and multiple firearms violations, maybe he can get a plea deal.
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1) know what you want to achieve before you consult a lawyer (obviously only regarding civil stuff, if you are getting charged and need to defend this point is usually moot). If you have trouble with your landlord you should have decided if you want to "fix" the situation or if you want to look for a way out of your contract entirely before you even visit the lawyer.
If your clear on what you want to achieve you will most likely be able to rule out 3-4 options he would otherwise present to you saving you time (and money).
2) If you have a trusted family lawyer and the case you need help with is something minor, it's most likely okay to stick to him (unless he outright says he is uncomfortable with this area, in that case obviously follow his advice). If you feel this will be a major effort ask him for a referral.
3) If the lawyer you decided on does not offer at least the first 30 minutes consultation for free (or if they are truly renowned then for a flat amount) become suspicious 
I cannot stress how important it is to have a plan and be organized before you go to your lawyer. He will almost certainly need a number of documents and you will save yourself quite a bit of effort if you prepare them in advance. If for whatever reason you had worked with a different lawyer on the same topic and you need to switch, make sure you have a copy of anything the previous lawyer has done in your case on hand.
One last thing, because that happens surprisingly often in my work, if for whatever reason you are consulting a lawyer to help someone in your family (common case, children trying to fix some mess their elderly parents made or parents trying to get their teenaged son/daughter out of a bind) please take them with you. In many cases the lawyer will not be able to do much of anything unless he has permission by the direct party. If all you want is advice you can disregard this, but remember that almost nothing is free. Don't spend an hour discussing options with a lawyer when you have to repeat that same discussion with the lawyer and person XY two weeks later to actually get anything done. The second time almost certainly won't be free.
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I have a tip for selecting a lawyer too. Dont go to friends or other befriended laywers to ask there. There incompetent to judge which lawyer is the right one for a case. Most of the time they dont have experience in the specific field. 2nd if u have insurance for legalservices, be aware they only want to settle allways. Because it saves them time and money (a legal advisor costs less then a real laywer). But sometimes settling isnt the best option for u. This is the main reason why i dont have legal insurance anymore because i feel its a waste of money. With some insurances u have the right to a laywerfirm of your choosing, well, then it gets better. U can just send to bills to insurancecompany and they must pay them. Read ur legal insurance contracts.
What i found the best way is the following.: Normally peeps become amateur laywers when they have troubles with, lets say the insuruance company. So u allready know alot of basics by reading. Most of the time, there are similar cases against the same sort of companies. U can read the verdicts and stuff on websites per country. U will understand most of what it says allready. Select 2 or 3 laywers that won one or more big similar cases. Meet up and let them make a prediction and stuff.
Most of the time they cost triple of a mediocre laywer but need less hours to get results, so it evens out and its worth it. Less delays (can save u 3 terrible years, believe me i know), higher payouts and if u win (which is likely, else the laywer wouldnt have taken the case or would have let u know about his doubts) his fee will be paid for in full or by your insurancecompany..
In our case, we first had legalinsurance, that stalled everything and wanted to settle a bad deal for us. After a long period, we went to superlaywer and won in 1/3 of the time. The costs were about €25.000,-- (he was one of the highest paid laywers in his field). In general i advice to get advice from a laywer that has had similar big cases, because it will cost him less time, has more experience in similar cases and took a win against a big company which proves the above.
I am sorry that my experiences are somewhat different then posts of others.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On June 27 2013 17:16 lightrise wrote:
The deadhaji I am really sorry you feel this way and had to write a post like this. I think there are many things that you should do to clear this post up and make it positive if you can.
Hmm I thivk you may be misinterpreting me but let's go on
1.) Competent lawyers in any city WILL know other good lawyers and usually the best lawyers in each field. If they cannot tell you who some of the best people are in each practice area you will know right away that they really don't know what they are doing. My mother has been practicing law for over 30 years and I am in law school for the coming year. If i asked her about any specific field she would tell me the best person for the job or if its something she never encounters at all, such as tax law because she does criminal defense she would know who to call and ask.
So this is exactly what I wrote in the first section so I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.
The reason I warn against a "friend" who is a lawyer is because you've never seen him practice and in general can't be sure if he's good or not unless you've worked with him in the past. That being said it is better than not getting any reference at all for sure.
5.) Not sure why you think having to meet with a lawyer is that bad. I actually think some people should meet with lawyers more and some should do it less. When people get speeding tickets and dui's they should call around and find a good lawyer to avoid fucking themselves in the future. Frivolous lawsuits should be done much less haha. As long as you find a well respected attorney you will be happy with the choice. Also by doing things in a timely manner and being super prepared you will save yourself lots of money. If you use the same attorney it is possible to get discounts as well. Meeting with a lawyer is not some dreaded experience.
So again I think you are misunderstanding me because my hope is that hopefully we never get into accidents or legal scuffles with someone else that mandates that we go see a lawyer. Wouldn't you agree that if we can get through our years peacefully without needing the services of a lawyer, that that would be preferable to a tumultuous life where we must seek legal counsel all the time?
I completely agree with you that if we indeed are invovled in a mess where a lawyer could help us out, we should without a doubt use their expertise. Like I said, our family has had the misfortune of being in complicated situations and we've sought out legal help for a reason and have never regretted that decision.
I think that because you are a budding lawyer, you've assumed that I'm attacking and belitting lawyers in gereal (and this is a reaction I tend to have often online so I don't blame you in the least) but this is simply not the case. But there are lawyers and finance people and other professional service folks who will indeed try to gouge you so it's in our best interests to look out for the possible traps, even if they don't happen to pop up this time.
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On June 29 2013 06:23 thedeadhaji wrote:btw thanks everyone for the additional advice! 
Its funny how different experiences gives different ways of selecting a laywer
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On June 29 2013 06:23 thedeadhaji wrote:btw thanks everyone for the additional advice!
I See what you are saying. I guess if you have lots of run ins with lawyers you are bound to experience a wide variety of service including lots of possibly bad things as you described. You are correct that we actually agreed with each other a lot. Either way it is definitely a blog about choosing a lawyer and to be careful! Nice work
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EPT
