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LastWish
2013 Posts
I was wondering if swarm hosts are even remotely possible in ZvT, because I've seen like 0 in all pro games I've watched. I think they can't be used because marines can kite them like there is no tomorrow and also they are not mobile enough vs medivac drops. | ||
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ETisME
12471 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:16 Type|NarutO wrote: Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc. It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style. WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side. even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th. I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
It's a pity that blizzard is unable to balance TvZ without decreasing the amount of options due to obvious "best strategies". | ||
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breakit
United States29 Posts
On June 25 2013 21:49 GhostOwl wrote: Are you seriously comparing Zerg drop to Terran drop? Un-turbo'd medivacs make Overlord look like snails..imagine turbo'd medivacs. You conveniently left out the part that they also heal. If you use your medivacs to drop, you don't have them with your main army but drops are all investment for all races. Not just Terran. Thats why they're called drops. You take units that would been used for your main army to harrass an enemy back in their base. Overlords getting picked off might cause a supply block and production comes to a screaming halt. Warp Prism is only one or two, unless Protoss chooses to mass produce them for some reason. Terran medivacs are made for healing as well, so they're naturally made in large numbers. Thus, you can mass doom drop and drop them all over the place. Not to mention the turbo speedvac really helps save your drops so that you can do damage and still keep your units. You can argue that somehow hellbats/widow mines are not OP, and we can take a long time to discuss why they are, and back&forth , but when we can discuss about drops, there is absolutely no question Terran has it the best. So stop your whining and delete this post I quoted below before you humiliate yourself further as biased And you're conveniently leaving out the part where overlords do not take up supply, can morph into detection, can spew creep all over the place... etc. You can't compare one mechanic of a race to another's. That's what makes the game different and interesting. I'd love to be able to warp in marines/marauders with my medivacs, but you don't see terrans complaining about that. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:17 LastWish wrote: I agree ZvT really lacks depth, because there is not enough options for the zerg player. I was wondering if swarm hosts are even remotely possible in ZvT, because I've seen like 0 in all pro games I've watched. I think they can't be used because marines can kite them like there is no tomorrow and also they are not mobile enough vs medivac drops. Swarm hosts are only good vs mech because they can only be good in situations where the opponent has to sit in a corner and focus entirely against the swarm hosts. Bio can do things like drop erverywhere and attack from multiple angles and that really makes things tricky. That and you need a lot of them since if you don't have many swarm hsots a single stim can smash a wave of locusts and get on top of the swarm hosts. As a terran right now I fucken LOOOOOOVE Tvz. And I don't even make hellbats all that much! Reapers and mines are great and I can play a really huge macro style that is very satisfying to play. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:45 ETisME wrote: Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style. WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side. even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th. I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet. Ling Bane was pre-queen buff. Don't even make comparisons to wol zvt, that was ridiculously imbalanced. It wasn't exciting either. Zerg turtled on infestors, made broodlords and won. Every terran did the 2-2 marine tank pre-broodlord prayer. | ||
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ETisME
12471 Posts
On June 26 2013 04:53 T.O.P. wrote: Ling Bane was pre-queen buff. Don't even make comparisons to wol zvt, that was ridiculously imbalanced. It wasn't exciting either. Zerg turtled on infestors, made broodlords and won. Every terran did the 2-2 marine tank pre-broodlord prayer. muta ling baneling was pre infestor change. then it started coming back to some zerg like DRG in late WoL time. then there were 2-2 ling baneling all in imo, ridiculously imbalanced wol still had more actions from zerg just makes ZvT in hots even more boring. | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
On June 25 2013 18:11 GhostOwl wrote: Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop. Yeah, like Zerg, which pays a one time fee for infinite drops, or are you talking about Protoss, with drop ships that can warp in units, move faster than our air units, and cost only minerals? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 26 2013 05:08 ETisME wrote: muta ling baneling was pre infestor change. then it started coming back to some zerg like DRG in late WoL time. then there were 2-2 ling baneling all in imo, ridiculously imbalanced wol still had more actions from zerg just makes ZvT in hots even more boring. The cool part of WoL ZvT from the zerg side was that you could play zergish by switching up your compositions a lot in the mid- and lategame. This part got completely lost, because more than half of those styles relied on the infestor being able to counter mass marine. Seriously, I bring this argument so much that it's the marine and not some hellbat or mine stuff that is crippling TvZ that I really feel the need to put some numbers behind this: Marine dps/supply: 7/10.5 stimmed Marauder dps/supply: 6.7/10 stimmed; 13.4/20 stimmed vs armored --> for 25gas less marines do 1more damage per second than marauders vs armored; the only advantages marauders have over marines against singelfire armored targets are +1range, concussive shells and +15health. Like, I'm getting seriously pissed when I see A/S level Terrans with a lot of marauders lose against roach/hydra in TvZ and then get to read how "roach/hydra is viable". Sure, the roach has one natural armor which means an extra -16.7% damage for marines while only -5% for marauders. They still do nearly the same dps and the marines still do 67% more damage against the hydras for less money, more production etc. It's like you want 1marauder for every 8marines for fighting roaches. And similar things can be said for swarm hosts play or just mixing in roaches, hydras or corruptors into a standard ling/bling/muta composition as well. Marines are just always an equal or better choice than marauders, reapers or ghosts and you can never force a break to the constant marinespam. So let's look at those options, because simply put, those units are the only options zerg has once a Terran has completed it's core production/upgrades:
It usually all boils down to Ultralisk/Infestor being the only real option to fight efficiently against lategame mass barracks play - + Show Spoiler + and if someone tells me to fight inefficiently I'm not going to bother answering, because that person clearly does not understand the Starcraft2 economy system, not to mention that person has never seen a lategame income tab in XvT And the only real way to get there is by going melee upgrades in the midgame, which requires banelings. And the only real way to play with banelings is to play mutalisks, or you will never kill a medivac. And that's about it for ZvT strategy if the Terran just goes macro play. You go ling/bling/muta and wait for a window to punish the Terran or transition into ultralisks and infestors or rarely broodlords. Roach/Hydra works sometimes under certain circumstances - which for the most part are "the Terran did not open standard and does not react properly to it". Though after all what I wrote, I also got to say that Terran does not have many options either to play in anyway an interesting game. Vipers are way too strong against Tanks and that basically shuts down most of the Terran non-marine options - unless you have 50mins to mine out a splitmap with 180army supply and 20OCs. (and even that I doubt is possible, once Zergs just start playing swarmhost/viper/static against it and the resources lost tab goes to 2:1) | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
For lategame you want to rely on tanks/marine, but you will have to be good with it or you will also get rolled as you can make a good transition out of it. TvZ on the very highest level may look a bit frustrating, but its nowhere near "unplayable" | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 26 2013 18:53 Type|NarutO wrote: You are taking a way too simple look on TvZ , rendering options unviable or void that are clearly there. Also, you seem to completely fail to realize that marine/marauder is the to-go against early roach/hydra stages, as yes marines do have better DPS/price compared to marauders, but you will not have enough marines and medivacs to beat down roach/hydra in the earlier game-stages. For lategame you want to rely on tanks/marine, but you will have to be good with it or you will also get rolled as you can make a good transition out of it. TvZ on the very highest level may look a bit frustrating, but its nowhere near "unplayable" I agree, early on you need a techlab anyways and it's better to produce a marauder than a marine from it. But it's not like you need to setup your production with a lot of techlabs from this point on - something that we see quite often and is just a mistake and doesn't make roach/hydra more viable, when/if it beats that. Of course my look on TvZ is very simple. There is a lot of things that can happen in a game and maps play a crucial role as well. Also you can dominate a Terran with ling/bling/muta only as well in a macro game, without going for the real antimarine engagement compositions. However, it's not like there is a huge amount of variety possible per se. Most of the variety only happens when the game goes weird (like overaggressive play that somehow ended up kind of even). I think TvZ on the highest level looked exciting for some time early in HotS. But at this point it feels like all the Zergs only wait for a mistake or to get to the point when they can finally build ultralisks. But there is little we see that the zerg actively does to try and win the game. | ||
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