On June 21 2013 05:26 rauk wrote: i don't know what university is like in europe but in america there are plenty of CS majors who go in knowing absolutely nothing (as in, they don't even know what an if else statement is) and come out with a solid job
also what you learn in university programming classes generally won't prepare you for 'real world' applications anyways, you will learn what you need to on the job
physics is only important for some engineering... if you wanna do EE, civil, or chemical you'll need it but for CS or bio (i think) you just need to pass the prereq classes
That is an egregious exaggeration.
It's not far from the truth. I know a few people who went to a "trade school" (a reference farm with a name attached to it) and got some low level CS jobs in the Bay Area. The education consisted of less than 6 months of formal training and a few thousand dollars payment in return for a contact that will confirm their competence to a prospective employer.
To add to this, there are many people who enter as CS majors with little to no knowledge about it at all, and come out with a solid skillset and extensive knowledge. Actually, the thing about CS is that it really does not require a great deal of students in general, versus something EE in which the baseline is taht you should have extensive knowledge in several areas. At my school, a significant portion of the entering class of intended CS majors has little to no experience with code at all.
On one hand this means that CS is not particularly difficult to pick up, so it is quite possible to differentiate yourself by excelling and going way beyond. On the other hand, it also means that there are a lot of mediocre programmers out there, yet there are a number of programmers who are REALLY good at the top with whom to compete.
On June 21 2013 07:03 farvacola wrote:So why is it that we should value the opinion of some self-proclaimed narrow-minded asshole?
Fair enough. To the OP, don't choose the humanities over the sciences because it will “improve” you as a person. You can find interesting people and ideas in either. Some of the most pleasant and open-minded people I know studied the sciences. Good luck with your choice!
On June 21 2013 07:03 farvacola wrote:So why is it that we should value the opinion of some self-proclaimed narrow-minded asshole?
Fair enough. To the OP, don't choose the humanities over the sciences because it will “improve” you as a person. You can find interesting people and ideas in either. Some of the most pleasant and open-minded people I know studied the sciences. Good luck with your choice!
Contrary to your own specifications, the above is rather open-minded and cordial
OP, we can't tell you who you are, and therefore our advice is going to be accordingly general and pretty useless.
I don't mean to scare you... but all Engineering comes out to is Applied Physics. Having no background in physics will make it harder on you, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Other notes to consider besides everyone saying "Do what you love." Doing what you love may not feed the family.
Blame google if these numbers are wrong.
Unemployment of: Engineers (6.4%) Liberal Arts (12.3%)
Average Starting Salary of: Engineers (50-80k) - depends on location and specialty it varies a lot. (Civil Eng. make the worst paycheck btw.) Liberal Arts (30-40k) - depends on profession, location, etc.
Personal experience... At the university I knew engineer students who had jobs 1 full year before they graduated (I had mine 2 full years before I graduated). Most had paid internships over the summer paying in excess of $20-$30 / hour.
I didn't know any liberal arts friends that had a paid internship. A few had jobs when they graduated after working unpaid internships. Most didn't get jobs. Few had jobs relating to their majors.
Case in point, I had a liberal arts friend that graduated a year before me. She ended up working at the University library. Then she moved up and started working at a local bookstore. She makes $9.00 an hour.
EDIT: I would think that some folks with liberal arts majors wouldn't be so biased against the STEM majors, but a lot of them are. To say engineering doesn't give you a perspective on life is a flat lie. After studying the physical laws governing EVERYTHING, you tend to get a very interesting view of the world and what is able to be accomplished. Liberal arts is more focused on people, which gives a very different view of the world.
I see the evolution of man progressing through the ages by way of inventions. Steam engine invented = Industrial Age, Population Explosion, Productivity advancement. Invention of flight = World travel exists, Shipping of goods increases 1,000 fold. The liberal arts majors can now become more well rounded by traveling the world. Leads us to the space age... we put a man on the freak'n MOON. Sit back and think about the fact that we have a DAMN ROBOT ON MARS!!! We invented satellites and everything that they provide (GPS, Mapping, Communications, etc etc.)
To think I'm following in the footsteps of the people who led the evolution of mankind is very humbling.
On June 21 2013 08:10 SnipedSoul wrote: Take engineering, get a job, and then go back to school for liberal arts when you can afford it.
this might be sort of the best of both worlds. get a sure job and sure money, but while you're doing all that and providing for your family and saving up and investing, maybe you take a few courses here and there, or you just sit down to yourself sunday evening and read and study on your own. You can easily learn all you need to know about physics and engineering from just reading on your own time, but people tend to want that degree for an engineer. Moreso than someone in L.A.
On June 21 2013 08:01 Smoot wrote: I would think that some folks with liberal arts majors wouldn't be so biased against the STEM majors, but a lot of them are. To say engineering doesn't give you a perspective on life is a flat lie. After studying the physical laws governing EVERYTHING, you tend to get a very interesting view of the world and what is able to be accomplished. Liberal arts is more focused on people, which gives a very different view of the world.
The laws governing everything? Just looking at the laws of physics actually gives you a very narrow view of the human experience.
On June 21 2013 08:01 Smoot wrote: I don't mean to scare you... but all Engineering comes out to is Applied Physics. Having no background in physics will make it harder on you, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Other notes to consider besides everyone saying "Do what you love." Doing what you love may not feed the family.
Blame google if these numbers are wrong.
Unemployment of: Engineers (6.4%) Liberal Arts (12.3%)
Average Starting Salary of: Engineers (50-80k) - depends on location and specialty it varies a lot. (Civil Eng. make the worst paycheck btw.) Liberal Arts (30-40k) - depends on profession, location, etc.
Personal experience... At the university I knew engineer students who had jobs 1 full year before they graduated (I had mine 2 full years before I graduated). Most had paid internships over the summer paying in excess of $20-$30 / hour.
I didn't know any liberal arts friends that had a paid internship. A few had jobs when they graduated after working unpaid internships. Most didn't get jobs. Few had jobs relating to their majors.
Case in point, I had a liberal arts friend that graduated a year before me. She ended up working at the University library. Then she moved up and started working at a local bookstore. She makes $9.00 an hour.
EDIT: I would think that some folks with liberal arts majors wouldn't be so biased against the STEM majors, but a lot of them are. To say engineering doesn't give you a perspective on life is a flat lie. After studying the physical laws governing EVERYTHING, you tend to get a very interesting view of the world and what is able to be accomplished. Liberal arts is more focused on people, which gives a very different view of the world.
I see the evolution of man progressing through the ages by way of inventions. Steam engine invented = Industrial Age, Population Explosion, Productivity advancement. Invention of flight = World travel exists, Shipping of goods increases 1,000 fold. The liberal arts majors can now become more well rounded by traveling the world. Leads us to the space age... we put a man on the freak'n MOON. Sit back and think about the fact that we have a DAMN ROBOT ON MARS!!! We invented satellites and everything that they provide (GPS, Mapping, Communications, etc etc.)
To think I'm following in the footsteps of the people who led the evolution of mankind is very humbling.
I don't think that many liberal arts degree holders (including myself) would say that STEMs majors give you no perspective; any higher level education will give you perspective, and STEMs degrees hardly make you narrow-minded when you are learning about how the universe works. That said, liberal arts folk (myself included) tend to get overly defensive because we often have STEMs people rolling through talking about how useless our degree is without knowing a thing about what we actually did to gain it and what we experienced. Damn near every person I know that got a liberal arts degree is already employed, so it's hardly impossible. That said, I went to a pretty well-respected liberal arts school, and damn near anyone that went there had to be motivated and passionate about what they do.
Explore at the university, then decide on your own.
There's no point in studying to have a job you won't enjoy. There's no point in going to the university if you're going to come out unemployed.
Balance is the key. Don't throw yourself into the deep on either end of the spectrum. Life sucks if you're not interested by your job. Life sucks is you don't have a job. Life's pretty good if you have a job you don't mind doing everyday.
On June 21 2013 05:57 hp.Shell wrote: Don't pay $100-200k for a good liberal arts education. If you want a liberal arts education, go to school and talk to the liberal arts professors. Figure out what they're teaching, then read. A lot. That's my advice. If you're going to school to get a job, then go to school to get a job. Don't pay for something you can get from Google and your library and a few friends.
Actually, the education is free here.
On June 21 2013 07:43 Aerisky wrote: On one hand this means that CS is not particularly difficult to pick up, so it is quite possible to differentiate yourself by excelling and going way beyond. On the other hand, it also means that there are a lot of mediocre programmers out there, yet there are a number of programmers who are REALLY good at the top with whom to compete.
On June 21 2013 05:45 LegalLord wrote: CS is pretty much the fashion business with computers: keep up with the fashion trends that come out once a month or so, or no one will care about you. Complete with fashion-esque names like "Ruby on Rails" and shiny Apple toys and the like.
If I understood correctly, it's easy to get into the game, but hard to stay there, unless I constantly improve myself?
On June 21 2013 06:46 Race is Terran wrote: if you want to go to liberal arts, you should get a facebook
Probably wouldn't matter which path I'll choose, as nothing will operate without facebook nowadays.
On June 21 2013 07:22 ghost_403 wrote: If you're wondering that question, engineering isn't for you...
It's presented as humor here, but it's actually a real thing. If you don't have "the knack" going in, you're probably not going to be able to make it through, and you're never going to enjoy it.
Source: I'm an engineer and I've got the knack.
Besides breaking a clock once and playing with legos, I probably lack "the knack". Then again, maybe it something which is obtainable?
On June 21 2013 08:01 Smoot wrote: I don't mean to scare you... but all Engineering comes out to is Applied Physics. Having no background in physics will make it harder on you, but it wouldn't be impossible.
Other notes to consider besides everyone saying "Do what you love." Doing what you love may not feed the family.
Blame google if these numbers are wrong.
Unemployment of: Engineers (6.4%) Liberal Arts (12.3%)
Average Starting Salary of: Engineers (50-80k) - depends on location and specialty it varies a lot. (Civil Eng. make the worst paycheck btw.) Liberal Arts (30-40k) - depends on profession, location, etc.
Personal experience... At the university I knew engineer students who had jobs 1 full year before they graduated (I had mine 2 full years before I graduated). Most had paid internships over the summer paying in excess of $20-$30 / hour.
I didn't know any liberal arts friends that had a paid internship. A few had jobs when they graduated after working unpaid internships. Most didn't get jobs. Few had jobs relating to their majors.
Case in point, I had a liberal arts friend that graduated a year before me. She ended up working at the University library. Then she moved up and started working at a local bookstore. She makes $9.00 an hour.
EDIT: I would think that some folks with liberal arts majors wouldn't be so biased against the STEM majors, but a lot of them are. To say engineering doesn't give you a perspective on life is a flat lie. After studying the physical laws governing EVERYTHING, you tend to get a very interesting view of the world and what is able to be accomplished. Liberal arts is more focused on people, which gives a very different view of the world.
I see the evolution of man progressing through the ages by way of inventions. Steam engine invented = Industrial Age, Population Explosion, Productivity advancement. Invention of flight = World travel exists, Shipping of goods increases 1,000 fold. The liberal arts majors can now become more well rounded by traveling the world. Leads us to the space age... we put a man on the freak'n MOON. Sit back and think about the fact that we have a DAMN ROBOT ON MARS!!! We invented satellites and everything that they provide (GPS, Mapping, Communications, etc etc.)
To think I'm following in the footsteps of the people who led the evolution of mankind is very humbling.
The part about internships is truly lucrative. I probably wouldn't make so much here, but it would still be better than nothing. The part about progressing through ages also fascinates me, but it's not like I'll be the inventor of the next great thing.
On June 21 2013 11:25 Stratos_speAr wrote: I don't think that many liberal arts degree holders (including myself) would say that STEMs majors give you no perspective; any higher level education will give you perspective, and STEMs degrees hardly make you narrow-minded when you are learning about how the universe works. That said, liberal arts folk (myself included) tend to get overly defensive because we often have STEMs people rolling through talking about how useless our degree is without knowing a thing about what we actually did to gain it and what we experienced. Damn near every person I know that got a liberal arts degree is already employed, so it's hardly impossible. That said, I went to a pretty well-respected liberal arts school, and damn near anyone that went there had to be motivated and passionate about what they do.
I think I'm not really passionate about anything, besides history. Unfortunately (fortunately perhaps?), there aren't any prestigious schools that will land you a job, just by seeing its name (e.g. Harvard). But maybe that's just the impression I've gotten. ----
I think I should go the engineering way. Choosing CS would be the safest choice as there are many spots to be filled in here. If I'd choose that path I should work on my "soft" skills, otherwise that would be pretty useless as well.
Looks like I'm leaning more towards engineering. Hopefully it'll be worth it.
I suggest you give both a brief try, by going online (e.g. MIT Open Courseware) and doing both an introductory physics course and an introductory liberal arts course, then see which you like better. You can then use that as a basis to choose which path of study suits you more.
one thing to look into is whether or not u can actually get into engineering and with math marks that low you will probably find the early year calc courses hard(despite them being fairly useless), i went to UofT and u wouldnt get in with those marks but its probably possible at a smaller university
On June 21 2013 14:28 cadam wrote: one thing to look into is whether or not u can actually get into engineering and with math marks that low you will probably find the early year calc courses hard(despite them being fairly useless), i went to UofT and u wouldnt get in with those marks but its probably possible at a smaller university
There's a shortage of engineers, so they will take almost everyone who they can get. Rumours say that the hard part is surviving the first semester, as up to 1/3 the class may be left after that (at least in some fields/branches).
I finished computer sciences last year. After the first year 10% of students quit, and after the second year.... another big chunk quit. I think that in total 25% of students quit in the first 2 years. But after that I can count those who DIDN'T finish on one hand. So if you pass the first 2 years....you will finish university.
Also you should look what if there are many jobs available for people who finish liberal arts in your country. All the advices here come from people from different countries. Here (in Romania) for example, people who finish liberal arts have a very difficult time finding jobs, while engineers (especially CS ones) find jobs very fast.
SO just enter a jobs website and see the number of available jobs for each field.
there's nothing that u will regret if you choose engineering, possibly outside of having a good time in college. Socializing is great but if u're content with feeling inferior for the rest of your life - go with it. I used to major history btw
It's presented as humor here, but it's actually a real thing. If you don't have "the knack" going in, you're probably not going to be able to make it through, and you're never going to enjoy it.
Source: I'm an engineer and I've got the knack.
That clip. Oh my god I laughed so hard.
That's not entirely true, I do know many people studying engineering who aren't like that, but at the same time, a lot of them are (myself included).
EPT
