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On June 14 2013 17:04 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 15:22 ThunderGod wrote:
WHY CAN MEDIVACS HEAL THEM?
I don't get why medivacs can heal them. They build out of the factory and look and behave like mechanised units.
It's not as if they needed some kind of buff to make them healable. To prevent pure static mech. Look at it this way: Medivacs are a big investment for a mech player. Load of gas, minerals not so important but still a hit. You look at every mech unit and since they are mech you're investing 100/100 in a dropship that is quick/fragile, is easily killed by Z and P air, and has no other benefits for your army-it's easier to just try a hellion runby and allows you to keep the gas. So, two dilemmas going into hots 1) How to help mech deal with durp chargelots walking all over the composition 2) How to stop mech players from turtling because apparently the way it worked in BW was so un-entertaining to watch that it killed ESPORTS Making the hellbat healed by medivacs solves number 2, while the hellbat itself solves number one. Medivacs are now not entirely useless outside of drops, and mech has a way to deal with mass chargelots (tempests still suck though). The end!
Lol cmon, stop trying to come up with a convoluted explanation for something that is clearly a mistake.
Blizzard wants SC2 to not be BW, but the removal of Firebats left a gaping big hole in the Terran bio arsenal.
Just like in BW, firebats were amazing with medics, but terrible without, so we need a melee splash unit that can be healed.
So they designed a completely original unit that is totally different to the BW one, while filling that hole, and called it the Hellbat.
Which begs the question, why not just bring back the firebat which would make perfect sense? Well because of what was said in the beginning, the design team would rather reinvent the wheel every time and repeat the same mistakes because SC2 is not BW.
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Yeah, BW was really boring that's why it killed ESPORTS.
Seriously in SC2 HOTS I only enjoy PvZ, because it seems to be the only matchup which has some depth.
The new Terran units/changes didn't make the matchups very interesting to watch.
Repears have too much health and do too little damage to be interesting.
Helbats are boring a-move units, with again too much health, unlike Hellions which are interesting but now not used very much.
Ok, widow mines are ok.
We'll see if the matchups develop, or should we wait for the next datadisk?
I expect that the terran tank will get buffed eventually, either lower gas cost or higher siege damage vs armored(like BW's 70 dmg, but not buffing the AOE damage anymore), because it's not used anymore and there are a lot of counters to it for each race.
Maybe bring back some interesting features like buffing ghost-snipe again vs all units, mass snipe used to be really fun to watch, they just needed to lower the dmg a little.
Emp could have larger radius but with delay(and the area should be marked to opponent) so there is actually some micro-skill involved - which would be much more fun to watch, like fungals are much more balanced and interesting now.
Remove hellbat and give the AOE fire ability to ravens turret, but make the casting range shorter and spawn time like 2 seconds in order for workers to escape while harrasing mineral line.
I could make a a dozen of improvements, overall Blizzard made a lot of improvements in this datadisk so we can expect that eventually the game will get really good, but not right now.
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On June 14 2013 18:02 LastWish wrote:
Yeah, BW was really boring that's why it killed ESPORTS.
Seriously in SC2 HOTS I only enjoy PvZ, because it seems to be the only matchup which has some depth.
The new Terran units/changes didn't make the matchups very interesting to watch.
Repears have too much health and do too little damage to be interesting.
Helbats are boring a-move units, with again too much health, unlike Hellions which are interesting but now not used very much.
Ok, widow mines are ok.
We'll see if the matchups develop, or should we wait for the next datadisk?
I expect that the terran tank will get buffed eventually, either lower gas cost or higher siege damage vs armored(like BW's 70 dmg, but not buffing the AOE damage anymore), because it's not used anymore and there are a lot of counters to it for each race.
Maybe bring back some interesting features like buffing ghost-snipe again vs all units, mass snipe used to be really fun to watch, they just needed to lower the dmg a little.
Emp could have larger radius but with delay(and the area should be marked to opponent) so there is actually some micro-skill involved - which would be much more fun to watch, like fungals are much more balanced and interesting now.
Remove hellbat and give the AOE fire ability to ravens turret, but make the casting range shorter and spawn time like 2 seconds in order for workers to escape while harrasing mineral line.
I could make a a dozen of improvements, overall Blizzard made a lot of improvements in this datadisk so we can expect that eventually the game will get really good, but not right now.
What the fuck are you talking, are you mad?
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On June 14 2013 18:11 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 18:02 LastWish wrote:
Yeah, BW was really boring that's why it killed ESPORTS.
Seriously in SC2 HOTS I only enjoy PvZ, because it seems to be the only matchup which has some depth.
The new Terran units/changes didn't make the matchups very interesting to watch.
Repears have too much health and do too little damage to be interesting.
Helbats are boring a-move units, with again too much health, unlike Hellions which are interesting but now not used very much.
Ok, widow mines are ok.
We'll see if the matchups develop, or should we wait for the next datadisk?
I expect that the terran tank will get buffed eventually, either lower gas cost or higher siege damage vs armored(like BW's 70 dmg, but not buffing the AOE damage anymore), because it's not used anymore and there are a lot of counters to it for each race.
Maybe bring back some interesting features like buffing ghost-snipe again vs all units, mass snipe used to be really fun to watch, they just needed to lower the dmg a little.
Emp could have larger radius but with delay(and the area should be marked to opponent) so there is actually some micro-skill involved - which would be much more fun to watch, like fungals are much more balanced and interesting now.
Remove hellbat and give the AOE fire ability to ravens turret, but make the casting range shorter and spawn time like 2 seconds in order for workers to escape while harrasing mineral line.
I could make a a dozen of improvements, overall Blizzard made a lot of improvements in this datadisk so we can expect that eventually the game will get really good, but not right now. What the fuck are you talking, are you mad?
You have to admit that the new Terran stuff is pretty bad =/ it wins games, but its not pretty in the slightest
I doubt the next expansion will fix anything, either. Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing wrong, because they never bothered to find out what they did right with StarCraft 1. They don't progress, only change.
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Why do I have to admit it? I completely disagree. I think the widowmine is as volatile as it goes. If you don't have top notch control with it, its going to hurt you more than anything. When I got back to Starcraft and I was learning to use, hell its tricky to use. The widow mine is a unit you can control well and maximize its damage but it can go terribly wrong while the opponent can minimize or nullify the damage.
Its exactly what a unit should be like. Benefitial towards a good user of it and benefitial if you are good against it as the opponent. There are units that are far worse in terms of design. The colossus for example, besides maybe focus firing and pulling back when its injured, there's not very much you can do with it. Its slow, it has a lot of HP and deals damage. It can be used with no effort and is still dangerous while the mine for example is not. It can easily blow up your entire army (hi forGG).
Banelings are another good example of a good unit. Banelings can burrow and with flanks and good positioning, damage can be maximized. Its a dangerous unit and has potential to hit just as cruel as the widowmine BUT it can be minized or nullified by good control of the attacker, spot on unit design. The hellbat in itself is not that big of a problem, its as pointed out the speedboost that takes away the slowness (the bad part about the hellbat) away and allows for high rewards with minimized risk. Yet, it can be negated and we saw sOs nearly nullifying hellbat drops and we saw great TvT evolve from hellbat drop games, if you are prepared. Hellbat drops are punishing as hell, but if you don't react to a 8 marine drop, your economy is gone just as fast.
If anyone wants to point out that innovation won the games without doing damage, I'll say he won all the games even without hellbats.
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Hellbat is a the worst unit by terms of design.
It's a transformer, that in a car mode cannot be healed, has around 40% hitpoints less, takes up half the space in medivacs.
So if I would want to rationalize this it means that when a hellion transforms into hellbat it *magically* gains a lot of size and weight and it's armor plating again *magically* becomes organic.
Why don't tanks also have this organic plating, anyone?
Now I'm not trying to say that everything has to make sense e.g. marines shooting battlecruisers.
However a game is good if it's intuitive(for both player and watcher) - in the game battlecruiser is relatively small and intuitively the marine should be able to shoot at it and also kill it.
Large things are usually tough, small things are usually easy to kill(unless they are heavily armored), lasers burn and deal a lot of damage, exposions damage more units at the same time... simple logic, intuitive.
But this hellbat-hellion transformation makes no sense at all and I can't think of another unit that is so flawed in the same manner.
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Please continue with realism. Why cannot tanks drive over Zerglings, why can the commandcenter not land on enemy units and destroy them, why are there no holes when ultralisks burrow etc pp. Is that really your argument? I can understand that from a point of balance healing is too strong , but arguing with realism is dumb.
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On June 14 2013 19:07 Type|NarutO wrote:
I think the widowmine is as volatile as it goes. If you don't have top notch control with it, its going to hurt you more than anything. When I got back to Starcraft and I was learning to use, hell its tricky to use. The widow mine is a unit you can control well and maximize its damage but it can go terribly wrong while the opponent can minimize or nullify the damage.
Couldn't we just have a vulture instead? It does everything the hellion and the widow mine does, and we all know how important eliminating unit redundancy is to Browder and friends...
Hellbat drops are punishing as hell, but if you don't react to a 8 marine drop, your economy is gone just as fast.
This is not true at all.
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On June 14 2013 19:39 Type|NarutO wrote:
Please continue with realism. Why cannot tanks drive over Zerglings, why can the commandcenter not land on enemy units and destroy them, why are there no holes when ultralisks burrow etc pp. Is that really your argument? I can understand that from a point of balance healing is too strong , but arguing with realism is dumb.
Tanks/CC argument:
From a player's perspective both make sense.
What would not make sense is if tank could ride over zerglings but not marines, because intuitively they are of the same size.
This is what I'm talking about, hellion to hellbat transformation is like if zealot could change into hydralisk.
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On June 14 2013 19:43 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 19:07 Type|NarutO wrote:
I think the widowmine is as volatile as it goes. If you don't have top notch control with it, its going to hurt you more than anything. When I got back to Starcraft and I was learning to use, hell its tricky to use. The widow mine is a unit you can control well and maximize its damage but it can go terribly wrong while the opponent can minimize or nullify the damage. Couldn't we just have a vulture instead? It does everything the hellion and the widow mine does, and we all know how important eliminating unit redundancy is to Browder and friends... Show nested quote +
Hellbat drops are punishing as hell, but if you don't react to a 8 marine drop, your economy is gone just as fast.
This is not true at all.
8 Stim marines shred your economy (when unloaded) as fast if not faster. I would say its about 5-6 seconds for both. Also, you really don't want the vulture back. Mines in Broodwar (3! per vulture) were insanely overpowered and would be even more so in Starcraft 2. A fast running following unit? Zerg would have nightmarines. You can put it down with the vulture all over the place, good luck getting rid of it. Also, the vulture was faster than the speedling, so you want that back as well?
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On June 14 2013 19:57 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 19:43 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On June 14 2013 19:07 Type|NarutO wrote:
I think the widowmine is as volatile as it goes. If you don't have top notch control with it, its going to hurt you more than anything. When I got back to Starcraft and I was learning to use, hell its tricky to use. The widow mine is a unit you can control well and maximize its damage but it can go terribly wrong while the opponent can minimize or nullify the damage. Couldn't we just have a vulture instead? It does everything the hellion and the widow mine does, and we all know how important eliminating unit redundancy is to Browder and friends...
Hellbat drops are punishing as hell, but if you don't react to a 8 marine drop, your economy is gone just as fast.
This is not true at all. 8 Stim marines shred your economy (when unloaded) as fast if not faster. I would say its about 5-6 seconds for both. Also, you really don't want the vulture back. Mines in Broodwar (3! per vulture) were insanely overpowered and would be even more so in Starcraft 2. A fast running following unit? Zerg would have nightmarines. You can put it down with the vulture all over the place, good luck getting rid of it. Also, the vulture was faster than the speedling, so you want that back as well?
What you don't seem to understand and maybe Blizzard too is that overpowered = fun to play, fun to watch.
However the overpowered must also mean that the game/matchup would not turn into some command&conquer style mass 1 unit type.
Broodwar vulture mines = overpowered sure but hard to setup properly + can damage own units.
Psi storms broodwar? Overpowered as hell but hard to execute properly.
This is also the reason why Colossus is still in the game after all the bitching.. Because it's overpowered, and it's fun to watch colossus shreading through enemy army.
But can you win any matchup by making only colossus? No way.
Also carrier was way better in Broodwar and deserves a buff in SC2, to be scary once again.
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Yeah i don't get why because i'm not GM and can't watch the minimap all the time... It takes ONE time. 3medvacs with hellbats in it...
HELLO ! ONE SHOT YOUR DRONE LINE....
ok i'm so gonna kill him now with my army but... well... he picks them up, runs in my nat, one shot the line and then fly back home to defend. But we players who are not even GM can't say : "WHAT THE HELL ?"
Let us scream from time to time !
Miss a drop on the minimap and you are dead. "oh well you should not have missed it". Of course i missed it i'm a plat player !
Then you're like "ok that was a bad game". WHAT ? he was silver league ? damnit i hate those things.
And what makes me sad is that it's all balanced in pro matches. So i have to endure this all over again.
Also hellbats drops makes me ALT+F4 and play painkiller ! WHY ? !
Ahhhh  i feal better !
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im terran and i like marines
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I saw some threads suggestion that either:
Make hellbat comes out as mech then the transformation upgrade gives bio tag
Or
Make them only come out after the transformation upgrade (so no longer build from factory)
for alternative suggestions.
I think they have addressed the key flaw.
"Why would you research transformation servos if you can build hellbats?"
Thoughts?
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On June 15 2013 14:45 SsDrKosS wrote:
I saw some threads suggestion that either:
Make hellbat comes out as mech then the transformation upgrade gives bio tag
Or
Make them only come out after the transformation upgrade (so no longer build from factory)
for alternative suggestions.
I think they have addressed the key flaw.
"Why would you research transformation servos if you can build hellbats?"
Thoughts?
That doesn't solve the problem that they break the suspension of disbelief and has 0 consistency with the rest of the game.
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I'll believe Terran is overpowered when they actually start winning major tournaments. As for the hellbat, who actually uses them to win consistently? It seems almost all top terrans prefer the wm.
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On June 18 2013 15:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'll believe Terran is overpowered when they actually start winning major tournaments. As for the hellbat, who actually uses them to win consistently? It seems almost all top terrans prefer the wm.
Idk I was watching Innovation vs soem other terran (qxc?) and the early-to mid game was pure hellbat drops on boths sides.
Even when having a turret in mineral line and 4 hellbats defending, Innovation was able to sacrifice a medivac with 2 hellbats and still do a lot of damage to enemy mineral line...
Sounds pretty broken to me...
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On June 18 2013 17:02 LastWish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 15:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
I'll believe Terran is overpowered when they actually start winning major tournaments. As for the hellbat, who actually uses them to win consistently? It seems almost all top terrans prefer the wm. Idk I was watching Innovation vs soem other terran (qxc?) and the early-to mid game was pure hellbat drops on boths sides. Even when having a turret in mineral line and 4 hellbats defending, Innovation was able to sacrifice a medivac with 2 hellbats and still do a lot of damage to enemy mineral line... Sounds pretty broken to me...
Comparing innovation and qxc is like comparing David to Goliath. Qxc isn't in the same league. How can something be broken in a mirror matchup? I agree it's annoying, but not unbeatable. If you hardcore counter hellbat drops (tank/viking), you can come out ahead. You can even counter attack and win pretty easily.
I do agree that hellbats have made tvt much more stale. There are fewer builds you can do at the moment. It's almost impossible to play the old bio or bio/tank builds.
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you know why medivacs can heal them? because when hellions transform it exposes the pilots big ass and thats biological so the healing lazors can reach and heal them.
Blizard wants a new firebat lategame and shit.
seriously, why the fuck do people argue with healing and shit? its a bonus game mechanic when you upgrade hellions by making armories. It is not like they are fucking free. You can argue why a thin ass lizard uses his mind to produce a psylock blade.
maybe they would make a zerg unicorn that shoots rainbow vomit.
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On June 18 2013 18:02 woreyour wrote:
It is not like they are fucking free.
100minerals. => 2drones. => Two shot droneS
EDIT : We are allowed to balance whine in Blogs are we ?
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EPT
