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Hey all,
I've been a SC2 fan (player, viewer, and mapmaker) for a couple years. I was most involved in the scene when I made Korhal Compound and played in masters on NA.
That said, I'm not going to buy Heart of the Swarm. Like many other mapmakers, I have been frustrated at Blizzard's game design. Usually I just ignore any problems I have with the game and keep trying to make better maps. But I just can't see my self continuing in HotS. There are two reasons-
The first reason that I won't buy HotS is the design of some of the new units. I'm not a fan of "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared for it". The oracle is good at destroying a mineral line in only a few seconds, but the opponent can stop it by having anti-air in position (turrets, vikings, etc.). Hellbats do a ton of damage, probably too much, if the opponent doesn't stop them. Swarm hosts are great if the opponent doesn't have detection or he can't move safely out of his base. This kind of unit design doesn't help the game in my opinion. What I am a fan of is "this unit will only do a lot of damage if you micro it well". These are units that are fun to see in the hands of a good player, raise the skill cap, and make the game more interesting. Examples are the mutalisk, blink stalkers, and the slowing bubble on the mothership core. I'd like to see units that require more micro at the top level. Otherwise, I'm not very interesed. Of course, I'm not saying every unit has to be hard to use, just that the design "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared", isn't doing it for me.
The second reason I won't buy HotS is the lack of a highground advantage. There have been threads on Teamliquid, Battlenet, and Reddit about this issue. Blizzard seems to think it will take away from player skill, but they are wrong. Some fans think it will encourage turtling; they are also wrong. Basically, it gives a lot more variety to maps and increases the skill cap of the game by encouraging positioning, micro, and strategic army movement. It improves the game in every way. Mapmaking would be so much better. Watching the game would be so much better. Players would appreciate the change because it increases the skill cap.
Until one of these things changes, I won't buy the game. Will you?
 
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Yep, nice job in korhal by the way, loved that map.
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Will buy it, but love your map.
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I actually really don't know whether I'll buy the game. I think the multiplayer is generally the same as WoL which I got tired of a looong time ago (the addition of a few units doesn't change anything as these changes are kind of uninspired, or maybe I'm just too tired of RTS games in general).
And as far as the single player campaign goes...it seems like Blizzard is being more of a Bethesda type epic storyline company that creates somewhat cheesy plots. Maybe one day when its on sale for $20  . I'll still watch the big tournaments though, just because I like some of the personalities (go nestea!)
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Nah man I likely won't be buying the game either. None of my friends play it anymore because it just isn't fun.
Blizzard doesn't want a mechanical focus...and SCII has never been about a strategic focus. There's so much more that they removed that you haven't mentioned that has a severe negative impact on the game mechanically.
None of their units have really made any sense. I really think it must be that Blizzard is trying to avoid copying BW units in any way whatsoever even if it means making a lame unit in return.
They don't really understand the core of what makes StarCraft what it is. And until they do (which they never will) it will always seem like an inferior product.
All with you monitor.
But hey, I'll still be watching out for all my favorite players <3.
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We heard the same stuff before WoL launch.
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I'm going to end up buying it... Despite agreeing with you wholeheartedly. I'm probably going to end up just doing the campaign tho (partially due to school always kicking my ass before summer). I'll definitely keep watching the scene (maybe not player streams). I'll probably give the ladder a go again when the semester is over (unless I find better things to do during the summer.)
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On February 15 2013 13:08 Jerubaal wrote:
We heard the same stuff before WoL launch.
Thank god!
Writing my blog may not do any good, but I like to think that I've done more than if I simply hadn't written it.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Haven't touched SC2 in almost a year, and no, I don't plan on getting HOTS. The game's just not doing it for me anymore.
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as sad as it is for me to say Im buying a starcraft game purely for the campaign, I remember when i was so excited for Brood War because of both the campaign and wicked multiplayer games I was gonna get in on. HOTS is an okay team game but the 1v1 drive in me is all dried up.
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I've been playing WoL but probably won't get HotS. I don't really like the direction they're taking the game and I can just watch all the epic cutscenes (or the whole campaign) on youtube.
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I'm bad at SC2. It's fun for me. So long as I am not in GM I have no reason to want a higher skill ceiling in the game. I've been watching 10s of hours of streams per week since the beta and that's not going to change, the game is still very entertaining.
I understand that you might not like what HoTS is doing, but they are largely irrelevant to my enjoyment of the game.
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Good. I really hope more people will boycott the game who are not satisfied with Blizzard's sloppy work. I personally don't believe Blizzard deserve anyones hard earned money. Besides the uninspired design changes, they really haven't been loyal to their customers in so many different ways such as updating maps and balance issues. What I love the most is how after 2 and a half years, they finally implement some of the changes that the community has been asking for so desperately since the very release. Why? Oh well gee, maybe it's because their new game is coming out in 2 months and they want people to buy copies. Only so that they can make their money and then disappear until the launch of their next title. Scumbags in my opinion.
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Man, there are so many people who are spoilt, self important and delusional in this thread (not OP). What big RTS title was there before SC2 came out? Nothing, for years. What other major RTS has been released since SC2 came out? Nothing. Face it. If you like RTS, it's either SC2 or go back to playing BW or WC3.
How can you say they haven't listened to the community or balanced the game? Just because they haven't balanced exactly to how you would like it, means they don't care or haven't supported their game? Really?
Oh shit, a company actually wants to make money. What a crime that is....
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Because they haven't. It has nothing to do with how I thought the game should have been balanced. It took them a full year to partially fix the infestor, when very well respected professional protoss players such as White-Ra, Grubby, HasuObs, Mana, the list goes on and on, were all saying that it was broken. It took them 2 years to remove a map like Shakuras from the map pool. It took them 2 years to introduce fixed spawn positions on their shitty ladder maps. They still haven't included neutral depots in WoL. They still haven't removed gold bases in WoL. They simply don't care about what the community wants, until its time to make some money.
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Will be buying. I'll mess around in MP occasionally, clear the campaign, but mostly I'll watch tournaments and replays as I still enjoy high level play in the game. It's not BW, but it's the best thing since :\
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Nobody knew the infestor was unbalanced until more than a year and a half into the game, then before the metagame had time to balance itself, blizzard (wanting to show they are listening to the community), nerfed them. (Did you know that "balance" has a lot to do with metagame)
Did the same well-respected P players complain that the forcefield was completely unbalanced? Did they complain that KA was too powerful? Sorry but I can't place too much credit into the opinions of "well respected players" or "the community" because of the obvious bias's that exist in one, and the overreactions that exist in the other. I really think Blizzard needs to care less about what the community says about balance, and just do what they think is right for the game.
Please stop speaking for "the community", because I'm part of it too, and your opinions aren't mine.
You know I have my own opinions about what I would change about SC2, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that just because i sit at home and play the game, that I could do a better job that the people who actually made the game and do it full time for a living.
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On February 15 2013 16:10 deathly rat wrote:
Man, there are so many people who are spoilt, self important and delusional in this thread (not OP). What big RTS title was there before SC2 came out? Nothing, for years. What other major RTS has been released since SC2 came out? Nothing. Face it. If you like RTS, it's either SC2 or go back to playing BW or WC3.
How can you say they haven't listened to the community or balanced the game? Just because they haven't balanced exactly to how you would like it, means they don't care or haven't supported their game? Really?
Oh shit, a company actually wants to make money. What a crime that is....
just because sc2 was the only big rts in years doesn't make it a good game. It isn't. Its okay but not the game it should be.
That said Ill probably buy it for the campaign and to try the multiplayer but Im not hyped for it.
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I am buying hots for sure. WoL past year has been really bad in terms of turtle play and stuff but hots is so much better.
Seriously the fun factor is night and day (at least right now) for hots. I can be aggressive as a zerg and not be all in or hope my opponent doesn't mis micro (aka zvp where the zerg is hoping toss messes up force fields if being aggressive).
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On February 15 2013 16:58 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 16:10 deathly rat wrote:
Man, there are so many people who are spoilt, self important and delusional in this thread (not OP). What big RTS title was there before SC2 came out? Nothing, for years. What other major RTS has been released since SC2 came out? Nothing. Face it. If you like RTS, it's either SC2 or go back to playing BW or WC3.
How can you say they haven't listened to the community or balanced the game? Just because they haven't balanced exactly to how you would like it, means they don't care or haven't supported their game? Really?
Oh shit, a company actually wants to make money. What a crime that is.... just because sc2 was the only big rts in years doesn't make it a good game. It isn't. Its okay but not the game it should be. That said Ill probably buy it for the campaign and to try the multiplayer but Im not hyped for it.
SC2 is sort of a love hate relationship.
On one had the gameplay flaws are inexcusable for a competitive game at this point, you don't need a diploma in game design to realize this (is that even a thing?).
But on the other hand every other similar RTS in recent memory is so horrible that it pretty much gives Blizzard an undeserved monopoly on the market by making SC2 the best RTS of this decade.
SC2 will continue to be mediocre until a proper competitor steps up.
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I think your criticism is well placed and definitely an issue, but there is always the tension in SC between imperfect information mechanics ( 'the strategist') game control mechanics ( 'the tactician') and unit control mechanics ('the micromaster'). If you make the game too far to one end, then it becomes a game that is only enjoyable and interesting for one specific kind of player, an issue broodwar suffers from. It doesn't matter how good you are at strategy and tactics, if you're down 50eapm on your opponent, you're probably going to lose. I'm not saying that strat/tactics don't enter into it, but you can only afford to invest in them once you've honed your mechanics to the point of stupidity.
I have to admit I agree with you that the unit design and overall factional alterations in HoTs are the most clumsy, inelegant and unexciting I have seen in years, but blizzard is really stuck between a rock and a hard place, with no talent to pull them free.
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Yarr, love HoTS, will buy. Great work on korhal.
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The funny thing is if Blizzard had just made an updated Brood War, and soberly so, they could practically print their own money and it would cement the game's status as the classic/greatest RTS of all time. Everybody would buy it. They already had a huge eSport scene and I have no doubt that a "pretty" version of BW would have been just as popular in the western world as SC2 has been: The hype for a new version of SC was so huge at the time. BW with SC2's matchmaking system, updated graphics, pathing, etc. but *the same mechanics* (limited control group size, etc.) would have been godly and they'd be selling it ten years from now just like they were still selling BW for years and years.
Their decisions make no business sense.
Now, don't get me wrong, I've had a lot of fun with SC2. But I still remember when I was playing my first game (practice ladder game) on release day and on the phone with my brother and I was like ... there are tripods attacking me, WTF is this shit? I expected there would be vultures, firebats, goliaths, all of that because those were the Starcraft units in my mind. I was disappointed, but the match-making is really the games killer feature so I've had a good time laddering all along. But not enough to keep me from getting bored with a so-so game after a few years. I'm still not bored with BW today.
Don't know where I'm going with this except that I really wish Blizzard had smart people making decisions and not folks out for glory. No doubt Browder and co. wanted to make a name for themselves, and it is a more humble and quiet decision to update an old game than to create new units, suddenly huge balance arguments again, and whoopdeedoo you're in the first row of live events, everybody knows who you are, etc. etc. Great for their careers, shitty for us.
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United States2704 Posts
I think you are overreacting a bit. I get the map making complaint. But as far as balance I am sure blizzard will keep balancing the game, its just they are pretty fail at it, but they will make things right. At the end of the day the game will sell really well because people believe blizzard will fix the issues. Sure I have my own complaints about balance, but I try to figure out how to deal with them because it is fun.
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On February 16 2013 00:46 HeeroFX wrote:
I think you are overreacting a bit. I get the map making complaint. But as far as balance I am sure blizzard will keep balancing the game, its just they are pretty fail at it, but they will make things right. At the end of the day the game will sell really well because people believe blizzard will fix the issues. Sure I have my own complaints about balance, but I try to figure out how to deal with them because it is fun.
Will it though? There's no doubt that BW (or packages including BW) sold far more copies than SC did before BW was released. I seriously doubt HotS is going to come anywhere near outselling WoL.
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I will buy HotS wihout a doubt.
Also, I fucking hated Korhal Compound.
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On February 16 2013 02:57 wongfeihung wrote:
I will buy HotS wihout a doubt.
Also, I fucking hated Korhal Compound.
With this guy on both counts.
One thing I like about HotS is the expanded early pressure options that don't force a player to be allin. CC first/1rax FE/1gate FE/15 hatch etc. may not be the only build we ever see that opens games other than allins and cheeses. I don't know about you, but I can pretty much skip the first 4-6 minutes of any game in the GSL and not miss anything while early-game HotS has a lot of action.
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Definitely buying hots. I would comment on how the new unit design alleviates some of the issue with reliance on sentries, but given your map I guess you wouldn't know what I was referring to...
Just kidding - good map! <3
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 15 2013 12:12 monitor wrote:Hey all, I've been a SC2 fan (player, viewer, and mapmaker) for a couple years. I was most involved in the scene when I made Korhal Compound and played in masters on NA. That said, I'm not going to buy Heart of the Swarm. Like many other mapmakers, I have been frustrated at Blizzard's game design. Usually I just ignore any problems I have with the game and keep trying to make better maps. But I just can't see my self continuing in HotS. There are two reasons- The first reason that I won't buy HotS is the design of some of the new units. I'm not a fan of "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared for it". The oracle is good at destroying a mineral line in only a few seconds, but the opponent can stop it by having anti-air in position (turrets, vikings, etc.). Hellbats do a ton of damage, probably too much, if the opponent doesn't stop them. Swarm hosts are great if the opponent doesn't have detection or he can't move safely out of his base. This kind of unit design doesn't help the game in my opinion. What I am a fan of is "this unit will only do a lot of damage if you micro it well". These are units that are fun to see in the hands of a good player, raise the skill cap, and make the game more interesting. Examples are the mutalisk, blink stalkers, and the slowing bubble on the mothership core. I'd like to see units that require more micro at the top level. Otherwise, I'm not very interesed. Of course, I'm not saying every unit has to be hard to use, just that the design "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared", isn't doing it for me. The second reason I won't buy HotS is the lack of a highground advantage. There have been threads on Teamliquid, Battlenet, and Reddit about this issue. Blizzard seems to think it will take away from player skill, but they are wrong. Some fans think it will encourage turtling; they are also wrong. Basically, it gives a lot more variety to maps and increases the skill cap of the game by encouraging positioning, micro, and strategic army movement. It improves the game in every way. Mapmaking would be so much better. Watching the game would be so much better. Players would appreciate the change because it increases the skill cap. Until one of these things changes, I won't buy the game. Will you?
These are all kind of pointless reasons. Let's be honest here: HotS isn't BW, its not WC3. Its a new RTS. If you don't enjoy it thats fine. If you aren't having fun anymore thats fine. Its a game, you are supposed to enjoy it while playing it since its not like your career is built around it. You don't need to justify buying or not buying it but to blame blizzard is kind of ridiculous imo.
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On February 16 2013 00:46 HeeroFX wrote:
I think you are overreacting a bit. I get the map making complaint. But as far as balance I am sure blizzard will keep balancing the game, its just they are pretty fail at it, but they will make things right. At the end of the day the game will sell really well because people believe blizzard will fix the issues. Sure I have my own complaints about balance, but I try to figure out how to deal with them because it is fun.
I'm not really trying to say that it's imbalanced, just that I don't agree with the design.
On February 16 2013 02:57 wongfeihung wrote:
I will buy HotS wihout a doubt.
Also, I fucking hated Korhal Compound.
Heh, agreed. Korhal wasn't a good map. I won't make excuses, but I did make it 9 months before implemented into the game (so the metagame had completely changed- protoss wasn't taking thirds against mass roach).
On February 16 2013 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 12:12 monitor wrote:Hey all, I've been a SC2 fan (player, viewer, and mapmaker) for a couple years. I was most involved in the scene when I made Korhal Compound and played in masters on NA. That said, I'm not going to buy Heart of the Swarm. Like many other mapmakers, I have been frustrated at Blizzard's game design. Usually I just ignore any problems I have with the game and keep trying to make better maps. But I just can't see my self continuing in HotS. There are two reasons- The first reason that I won't buy HotS is the design of some of the new units. I'm not a fan of "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared for it". The oracle is good at destroying a mineral line in only a few seconds, but the opponent can stop it by having anti-air in position (turrets, vikings, etc.). Hellbats do a ton of damage, probably too much, if the opponent doesn't stop them. Swarm hosts are great if the opponent doesn't have detection or he can't move safely out of his base. This kind of unit design doesn't help the game in my opinion. What I am a fan of is "this unit will only do a lot of damage if you micro it well". These are units that are fun to see in the hands of a good player, raise the skill cap, and make the game more interesting. Examples are the mutalisk, blink stalkers, and the slowing bubble on the mothership core. I'd like to see units that require more micro at the top level. Otherwise, I'm not very interesed. Of course, I'm not saying every unit has to be hard to use, just that the design "this unit is good if the opponent isn't prepared", isn't doing it for me. The second reason I won't buy HotS is the lack of a highground advantage. There have been threads on Teamliquid, Battlenet, and Reddit about this issue. Blizzard seems to think it will take away from player skill, but they are wrong. Some fans think it will encourage turtling; they are also wrong. Basically, it gives a lot more variety to maps and increases the skill cap of the game by encouraging positioning, micro, and strategic army movement. It improves the game in every way. Mapmaking would be so much better. Watching the game would be so much better. Players would appreciate the change because it increases the skill cap. Until one of these things changes, I won't buy the game. Will you? These are all kind of pointless reasons. Let's be honest here: HotS isn't BW, its not WC3. Its a new RTS. If you don't enjoy it thats fine. If you aren't having fun anymore thats fine. Its a game, you are supposed to enjoy it while playing it since its not like your career is built around it. You don't need to justify buying or not buying it but to blame blizzard is kind of ridiculous imo.
I don't want HotS to be BW! I just want more dynamic gameplay and a higher skill ceiling. At one point I was considering trying to pursue a career around it... but anyway, who else would I blame?
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I was starting to get bored, finally, until I got my beta key. There is some shit in there I think is lame, but at least for now the strategies you can use is waaaay more varied than WoL. The game feels a lot different.
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Buying HotS, because I played in the beta, and it's fun, which is the basic requirement for any game I buy. Blizzard tries to make things fair, and I'm not precious about what I think the game should be - that's "design your own game" thinking, which will make you crazy - and is (in my opinion) self-defeating on the path to entertainment/enlightenment.
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France12906 Posts
I haven't tested it yet, nor do I know all the new units skins/names because I didn't watch enough streams. I don't know yet if I'll buy it (if it's 30€ I'll buy it for sure but if it's 60€ I'm not too sure), I didn't notice there was no high ground, it kinds of suck if it's the case.
The added units without more micro annoy me a lot as well, I feel like they are still casualizing the game even more (number of units on minerals/gas and auto sending to mine seriously?).
The lack of new terran units is kind of sad too...
I don't think they will change the two things you talk about though, they kind of do their own thing without listening to the players so there is not much hope.
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