At my friend's apartment in college, lived a devout Christian girl among a few others and occasionally, I would go over to visit and hang-out with my friend (and by proxy with her roommates) and sometimes sleep over on the couch if I had a midterm the next day. All of us were pre-something at the time, med or optometry or pharmacy or dental, some health-related 'program', I can't remember who was which, except that the Christian Girl, let's call her Christie (since she was Christian haha get it...), was pre-med.
We all took the same biology and chemistry classes and so I'd often be a front row witness of the time and effort Christie put into her studies. Can you imagine a rusty car with rectangular wheels because that translates about right to her studying efficiency. If she didn't need to know much technical detail and just band-aid up patients and say some kind words, she would have made a great doctor.
Man she'd study the material so hard, but come test day, her brain would take it's quarterly cocktail of high pressure cortisol mixed with nervous anxiety and she'd do bad. One day, I don't remember how it came to be, but I started asking her about med school and what her chances were. It wasn't as straight forward as I'm putting it now - I didn't go up to her and demand her annual tax return, but some how we got talking about it and she said her grades weren't very good, but she was going to have faith, because this was the path god had set her on. I decided to be cynical and said something like, "I remember some quote about god only helping those that help themselves." And she looked at me kinda sad and said, "Well Kevin, I'm doing my best."
Her extra-curriculars were excellent. She did JumpStart which is where you teach poor kids how to read and do 5*3 and sing songs and write poetry and other things which I don't really know the details about. And she volunteered at a hospital or two and was going to Africa soon to help the poor hungry Africans and a whole load of other shit which I'm not going to bore you with, but the fact is, she was a pre-med student who was trying to jump through all the hoops, and there was just one hoop that was set a little too high.
A year later, she a junior and me a senior now, she had started taking orgo and I'd help her here and then, and again, I can't remember how the conversation drifted to it, but she started saying how ochem was so hard and that she was questioning whether med-school was indeed the path for her. She mentioned she'd been praying a lot to god, and was looking for an answer and somewhere in between her sentences I asked, "So what happens if you don't become a doctor?" and she smiled a bittersweet smile (like the kind you give your drool covered kid when he (or she) questions if Santa really exists) and said something that really stuck with me for a long time, and hence why I'm writing about it:
"Then God will provide a new path. I want to be a doctor, but if that's not what I'm meant to be, I just need to trust in God and that's what I'll do."
Someone once told me that it doesn't matter how strong your faith is, it matters how strong the thing you have faith in is.
Lame example: you sit on a chair, it doesn't matter whether you believe with all your heart that it will hold you, or if you only believe a tiny little bit, what matters is whether or not you sit. And whether or not the chair holds you.
So at first she said god set her on path x, but then when you asked her what would happen if she were to fail on path x, she said that god would provide her with a new path? This seems really strange. Let's assume for the sake of argument that god really does determine your path in life and that said path is 'the right one' for you in the sense that you at the very least can succeed in it - a god that would set a kid born into a wheelchair on the path to become a football player would be a terrible god. So either she doesn't know with full certainty what path god has set her on or god is capricious and changes his mind. Let's rule out the latter on grounds of just plain 101 theology. So we're stuck with: She has no idea what path god has determined for her.
What does this mean? It means she can't use Christianity as an excuse to escape the burden of finding out how to live her life, i.e. to find what really is good for her.
On February 08 2013 19:00 Sauwelios wrote: So at first she said god set her on path x, but then when you asked her what would happen if she were to fail on path x, she said that god would provide her with a new path? This seems really strange. Let's assume for the sake of argument that god really does determine your path in life and that said path is 'the right one' for you in the sense that you at the very least can succeed in it - a god that would set a kid born into a wheelchair on the path to become a football player would be a terrible god. So either she doesn't know with full certainty what path god has set her on or god is capricious and changes his mind. Let's rule out the latter on grounds of just plain 101 theology. So we're stuck with: She has no idea what path god has determined for her.
What does this mean? It means she can't use Christianity as an excuse to escape the burden of finding out how to live her life, i.e. to find what really is good for her.
If she's right, and medicine is the path God set her on, she'll be able to do it. More likely she's wrong in thinking God set her on this path, but like she says, if this isn't what God plans for her there is something else.
Back a few years, my uncle died. I couldn't imagine a future without him in it. And now, some 6 years later, I can't imagine a past with him in it. Life changed and adapted around that missing piece. And now the life I have is the only correct one, the only one that could ever have been. There's probably some kind of cognitive/psychological word or phrase to describe this feeling. Self affirmation or confirmation bias or something. Like the poem by Robert Frost, Two Roads, or whatever. In the end, it doesn't matter what the right path is, whichever one you take will be yours. Whatever you end up doing, that will be you. And you can't change that. What simply "is" will always be True.
Your friend's belief in God's infallibility is much like an affirmation of existence, and an acceptance of it.
On February 08 2013 21:36 Fishgle wrote: In the end, it doesn't matter what the right path is, whichever one you take will be yours. Whatever you end up doing, that will be you. And you can't change that. What simply "is" will always be True.
Your friend's belief in God's infallibility is much like an affirmation of existence, and an acceptance of it.
I'd claim the exact opposite: It doesn't matter whether you chose the path yourself or someone/something else has chosen it for you as long as it leads to a good life. Whether you credit yourself for having found it or credit your god for having brought you to it, as long as it's the 'right' one all is great! But what if you make some terrible decisions and end up a homeless drug addict - this will be indeed 'you', but that 'you' can be pretty bad. It would be the only one of the infinite possibilities that is actual, but that actuality would suck. Have you read Candide?
On February 08 2013 22:50 Sauwelios wrote: Whether you credit yourself for having found it or credit your god for having brought you to it, as long as it's the 'right' one all is great! But what if you make some terrible decisions and end up a homeless drug addict - this will be indeed 'you', but that 'you' can be pretty bad. It would be the only one of the infinite possibilities that is actual, but that actuality would suck. Have you read Candide?
But a believer will state that it is "God's plan" whether he is in a good or bad situation. Someone full of despair and cynicism can still believe they are following God's plan, even while screaming Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani. If you're athiest like me, it's much like the awe of existence, that out of the infinite possibilities of the Universe, it coalesced into this one. That's what a believer sees in God. "How strange it is to be anything at all".
Edit: I guess, for a believer, "for the best" doesn't exist, since everything is prescribed by God. Therefore everything that happens is perfect. It's actually a very useful thing, to be able to accept things for what they are, however flawed the philosophy. Some self-delusion is necessary to prevent man from going mad. It seems better than endless regret, at least.
No I haven't read Candide, though I feel I should.
On February 08 2013 23:49 Fishgle wrote: Edit: I guess, for a believer, "for the best" doesn't exist, since everything is prescribed by God. Therefore everything that happens is perfect. It's actually a very useful thing, to be able to accept things for what they are, however flawed the philosophy. Some self-delusion is necessary to prevent man from going mad. It seems better than endless regret, at least.
That's not what faith is (or should be) about though in my opinion, if that was the case then the whole concept of freewill and that every human has the choice of acting "right" or "wrong" (whatever that means) would be completely redundant. Self-delusion is the thing that shouldn't happen through faith in my opinion and it is one of the main reasons why the majority of the religious communities worldwide are such hypocrits, especially the high authorities. Ultimately this kind of doctrine breeds people like this girl who just make these statements because they come out of a religious family and were told to say these things, but I doubt they really personally thought about them in depth. It doesn't really hurt them personally and it might even help in certain situations in life, but it can also lead to a lot of struggle and pain further down the road if you have uncertainties concerning your faith.
Faith in my opinion is a personal affair and that shouldn't be discussed on the Internet, it is bound to create drama. That's also why every discussion about religion/faith on the internet develops into nonsense and personal arguments after a few pages. Everyone misunderstands everyone else, there is no proof for anything (because thats a main premise of the word faith in itself), it is a mess.
On February 09 2013 02:05 Bommes wrote: I doubt they really personally thought about them in depth.
If it's any consolation, I doubt YOU really personally thought about THAT in depth.
See, how does that feel?
You are probably right.
I also wasn't sure if I should even send the post from above and I probably shouldn't have, because it is a precarious topic to discuss and I can't really get my point across well in a couple of sentences.
I think you're concentrating too much on the religious thing. Honestly this has nothing to do with religion and a secular person could say the same thing. "I feel like I was meant to be a doctor, but if it doesn't happen then it means I was meant to do something else and I'll do that instead" See does that sound so weird? I don't think so.
@FryBender: The problem is that her statements indicate a rather strong degree of certainty. Saying that "you have been set by god on path x" means that you know that your god has put you on said path, i.e. it's more akin to saying: "I am meant to become a doctor" or "my purpose is to become a doctor." And when it doesn't work out, saying that "maybe I was meant to become something else then.." calls the certainty of the previous statement into question.
However, if you were previously wrong about your purpose being x, then that means your method of determining said purpose is flawed (and you're not in a position to speak with certainty about those matters). This doesn't seem like a big issue, but if your method consists of 'knowing god's will' or 'listening/talking to god through prayer', then you can see the problem. Of course barely any sane Christians would claim to be capable of doing either of those two things, so hey. The bottom line of the story is that her faith provides her with meaning and purpose (as in 'knowing that god has -a- plan for her'), which is totally fine, but it gets all gobbled up in weird talk of knowing what paths are good for her etc.
On February 09 2013 05:31 Sauwelios wrote: @FryBender: The problem is that her statements indicate a rather strong degree of certainty. Saying that "you have been set by god on path x" means that you know that your god has put you on said path, i.e. it's more akin to saying: "I am meant to become a doctor" or "my purpose is to become a doctor." And when it doesn't work out, saying that "maybe I was meant to become something else then.." calls the certainty of the previous statement into question.
However, if you were previously wrong about your purpose being x, then that means your method of determining said purpose is flawed (and you're not in a position to speak with certainty about those matters). This doesn't seem like a big issue, but if your method consists of 'knowing god's will' or 'listening/talking to god through prayer', then you can see the problem. Of course barely any sane Christians would claim to be capable of doing either of those two things, so hey. The bottom line of the story is that her faith provides her with meaning and purpose (as in 'knowing that god has -a- plan for her'), which is totally fine, but it gets all gobbled up in weird talk of knowing what paths are good for her etc.
But that's exactly what I'm talking about. When someone says something like "I'm meant to do X" or "my purpose in life is Y" they intrinsically bring up a metaphysical force that "guides" them to do something. Otherwise what does it even mean to be "meant to do something." None of us would have blinked an eye if she had just said I'm meant to be a doctor. It's only the religious part that people are concentrating on.
Knowing God's will is exactly the point of Christianity. And yes Christians try to figure out what that is by praying and listening to God. Again this is no different then anyone else who does anything. We all make decisions that are not 100% rational. We base things on hunches and gut feelings and things that just "feel right" so I don't see what the big deal is. I agree with you that you have to steer clear of anyone who says that they are 100% sure of what God's will is but that's clearly not the girl's problem in the OP since she is willing to admit that it's possible that she may not get into med school and therefore she may be wrong in her understanding of God.
I believe hope develops into faith. Hope springs from the knowledge that our life is full of possibilities. There are no hard certainties yet, just the first whispers of anticipation that we just may be able to fulfill our heart's deepest desires. Lingering doubts fade as hope becomes faith. We start to see the magic for ourselves. Faith propels us forward into action; we actually do the work that those we have faith in are telling us is necessary if we are to achieve what we want. Finally, after faith has been cemented in our lives, we begin to trust.
EPT
