• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:14
CEST 21:14
KST 04:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists10[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers9Maestros of the Game 2 announced32026 GSL Tour plans announced8Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail0MaNa leaves Team Liquid19
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion ASL21 General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A [ASL21] Ro24 Group F
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1904 users

A common mistake of begining game designers - Page 3

Blogs > 0x64
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
Winchestro
Profile Joined November 2012
Germany10 Posts
December 10 2012 18:34 GMT
#41
That was a insightful and hillarious post. Thanks for pointing out the variety of game design fields. There are in fact plenty of specializations out there.

I personaly don't see game designers as just video game designers, because most game designers I know also make board and card games, some even design pretty cool physical games. I actualy don't even like to put a lot of weight in the word "game" in "game design", because there are some techniques that work well outside of the games. So I'm totaly with you on that point, even though I personaly don't have much experience in polishing my board and card game prototypes to a professional level... maybe because I always got sidetracked by having more fun with the digital prototypes I created for balancing purposes.

As you pointed out correctly most of what was said here before isn't even getting close to truely representing game design as a whole, maybe because the theme of the thread was more "common mistakes of beginning game designers" and general oversimplified wisdoms one could give them, that will be benificial for them in most cases.

How would you prefer to break down the immense complexity of game design in order for people who don't have your experience to orient themselves and maybe find the right specialization they can become extremely good in?
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-10 21:30:09
December 10 2012 21:25 GMT
#42
On December 06 2012 05:04 Winchestro wrote:
Im curious what you mean with "value". From what i've learned about evaluation of game design descisions, its a good practice to find and define the core gameplay of a game, and then value each descision by asking yourself "How well does this support my core gameplay?". For example the core gameplay of star craft 2 could be defined as something like "Fighting with units". Then you can watch some aspect about the game, like base building or economy and ask yourself "how well the way i build my base and my buildings support fighting with units?"


I was gonna do a bigger post but I don't have the time . I will just answer this question here.

This is really my own theory, so feel free to disagree.

Customer value is what adds money to your game, and keeps people playing it.

Examples
- Good packaging adds value, when you buy a game in a box you play it more because of sentimental value
- The amount of time spent in a game is valuable to the user, its what gives online games that feeling of "weight"
- Progression adds value, you are probably less likely to quit when you have a well geared character
- Cash items add value, when a player buys a cash item he is less likely to quit the game
- Community adds value, the more friends you have, the less likely you are gonna quit
- You get the idea

Indie games often neglect many of these, which is why most of them never get customer reattainment or make much money. They are always entirely concerned with the game mechanics on a pure level. Value is often what makes the game fun, the gear, the friends, the time you spent.

Many game designers long miss the idea of arcade games, where it was all about the game your score and nothing else. However they do not realise that other forms of value that we see in online games came into play, the money you put into the coin slot, the feeling of a big arcade machine, to the friends you make at the arcade.

sluggaslamoo wrote: Alignment of design and value, is the reason WoW was so successful. Whether or not you think its a good game, it is extremely popular. Value are things like friends, investment (money or time), progression, skill level, etc. Its interesting that Blizzard afterwards went in the opposite direction, by making BNet 2 feel like a barren wasteland, hiding stats from the players, and locking people into divisions.


EDIT: Just reworded some of my statements to sound a little less dichotomous.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-13 12:59:21
December 13 2012 12:53 GMT
#43
How would you prefer to break down the immense complexity of game design in order for people who don't have your experience to orient themselves and maybe find the right specialization they can become extremely good in?


I think there are really three core issues new games designers have to address (and I stress game designer. You can be a perfectly fine game developer without doing this hardcore shit, just as you can be a perfectly good plumber, brickie or carpenter without learning architecture. So long as you don't actually try and build the blueprints of the final product, this is helpful but unnecessary. If you ever want to actually design a genuinely great game though, it's absolutely fucking mandatory.)

1) scope/rhetoric: the first is that games are bigger than big. There is so much that can be used to inform game design it's just silly and it's rooted in disciplines from every field of creative practice and academia. The best text I have encountered for demonstrating this scope is Sutton-Smith's The Ambiguity of Play which examines various interpretations of what play and games are comprised of and what they mean, using 'rhetorics' to categorise them- for example the rhetoric that games are a civilising tool that abrogate all out conflict into abstracted contests, or the rhetoric that games arise from the brain learning about its environment and recombining it in a variously random or directed fashion and so on. The work is impressive not just in its scope, which is vast, but in that it presents such a variety of different opinions and ideologies around games and play that you can't help but be shocked out of your own way of thinking, if it is at all naive (which it inevitably is). Once this shock has occured, I would hope that the designer would be more open to examing theory, methodology and practice from other disciplines and rhetorics, plus be more aware that they have their own and that it is not the only one.

2) Authorship/stewardship: A dichotomy in all game design is you are designing something (a toy, a set of rules, a scenario) which is ultimately to be experienced by another through action and interaction. This places the game designer in an interesting space. Is one conveying meaning in the traditional authorial sense, where the author wishes to communicate certain patterns of narrative through their text, or is one merely a custodian of a structure which encourages the user to create their own narrative patterns and meaning. The analogy can be made to lego bricks: does one present them as a kit that is to be assembled a certain way to be considered successful, or as a system through which the user can invent and create their own structures within the constraints of the bricks.

It is a crucial point for all potential game designers to understand this dichotomy, their status as authors on the one hand, and their role in encouraging their players to, well, play, always a creative and individual activity. The interactions between these two roles are subtle, complex and diverse. When I say they must be understood I mean not that they must be mastered and their interactions perfectly grasped. Merely that the implications and a basic understanding of the issues must be had in order to make mature and intelligently designed games. There are few if any texts that address this deeply, so to engage with the literature one must combine videogame design texts that take the authorial appraoch (guys like adams, crawford and so on) with theory of games texts (caillois, bartle etc) that emphasise the player's experience and position.

3) Internal/external: The dichotomy between physical and magic (or external/internal) constraints. I use magic in the sense of the Huizingian magic circle (not the Salen&Zimmerman magic circle), the individually defined, internally maintained rules that limit the space of play in most games. The sorts of rules that say the paint lines on the edge of a soccer field are as good as a wall, that the card with a 2 on it is worth less than the card with a 4 on it and so on. These contrast with the rules of videogames which are physical, externally imposed by someone other than the player. Of course, magic rules arise in videogames, but they are rarely anticipated or intended by the designer.

This is the burden of the modern videogame designer. Historically games self-mediate and self-adjust, ironing out problems, adding features and becoming more and more polished through a process of memetic natural selection. (memetics derives from memes, the information equivalent of the gene, which serves the same purpose in the evolution of information as the gene does in biology). Designed games, particularly the heavily regulated modern videogame with its IP controls, antimodification encryption and incredibly complex code, lack much of this capability for adaptive development in the hands of their players. Players can only consensually limit the space further (eg, no sniper rifles allowed), not adjust (sniper rifles deal 10 less damage) or expand (new weapon to balance out sniper rifles) it. In a traditional game this would typically be as easy as a few words between bouts. In videogames it is often impossible, which places incredible responsibility on a designer to get it absolutely perfect.

You don't make things perfect by throwing darts at a board, nor by failing to understand context and theory, so being a game designer is a heavy, heavy burden of responsibility to learn a lot about a lot.


Once these three concepts are understood, games design appears to be a far, far more intimidating prospect, but also a far, far more rewarding and interesting one. There are a lot more things to explore, examine, theorise upon, test and ultimately discover, and these have far greater importance than just getting the next my little pony game's metascore up a few points.


Indie games often neglect many of these, which is why most of them never get customer reattainment or make much money. They are always entirely concerned with the game mechanics on a pure level. Value is often what makes the game fun, the gear, the friends, the time you spent.

Many game designers long miss the idea of arcade games, where it was all about the game your score and nothing else. However they do not realise that other forms of value that we see in online games came into play, the money you put into the coin slot, the feeling of a big arcade machine, to the friends you make at the arcade.


This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. To design the game you must also understand the social context of the game, its position in space and in player's life. Though I think this would be better phrased as 'engagement' or 'positioning' rather than 'value', Slugga shows he's thinking not just about the mechanics of the game in a systems sense, but in a social sense, a kinaesthetic sense and a contextual sense. A mechanic may work better on a home computer than an arcade machine, even if the interface is identical simply because of the different contexts. A player may value a game that has a large community around it more than an identical game with no community, even if that community plays no part within the game itself. A good designer works this sort of thing into their design.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 46m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 570
OGKoka 191
BRAT_OK 74
DenverSC2 72
MindelVK 20
EmSc Tv 15
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23578
Soma 370
Rush 186
firebathero 168
Soulkey 144
Dewaltoss 92
ggaemo 65
Hyun 39
Free 25
Backho 20
[ Show more ]
Sexy 17
League of Legends
goblin81
Counter-Strike
fl0m7237
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu293
Other Games
Grubby3413
summit1g1738
FrodaN688
Beastyqt543
Mlord353
B2W.Neo321
KnowMe218
C9.Mang0159
ArmadaUGS126
QueenE60
Trikslyr51
Mew2King34
ZombieGrub27
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL91
StarCraft 2
angryscii 31
EmSc Tv 15
EmSc2Tv 15
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 64
• Adnapsc2 10
• Shameless 3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 34
• HerbMon 30
• 80smullet 16
• FirePhoenix8
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen36
League of Legends
• Nemesis2290
• TFBlade1208
Other Games
• imaqtpie882
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
4h 46m
The PondCast
14h 46m
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
15h 46m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 4h
Escore
1d 14h
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
1d 15h
OSC
1d 19h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
2 days
WolFix vs nOmaD
dxtr13 vs Razz
BSL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
3 days
Ladder Legends
3 days
BSL
3 days
IPSL
3 days
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-14
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.