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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I was reading this thread and in my reply I realised I was basically writing out a blog post I've been meaning to make for a while. So rather than give a proper reply in the thread, I'll write about it here in this blog.
BW is often touted as the holy grail of RTS games which any other game from the genre strives to be like. It's often looked at as a game with incredible depth and with each unit having incredible potency in the hands of the pros. You'll read a lot about SC2 and how this isn't true, barring a few units. The Colossus, for instance, is a unit which is nearly universally hated and is seen as a huge problem to the gameplay of SC2. Compare this to the Reaver which was incredibly exciting and the fans are left wondering 'what went wrong here?'.
This blog is concerned with illustrating that HotS is going to bring a lot more BW-esque elements into the game and actually the various new units (with some exceptions) increase the depth of each unit.
Firstly, some examples from BW.
The Reaver
We all love this little guy, but why do we hold such an affinity for him? In PvP, in large battles Reavers serve very much a Colossus-type role in that they deal big splash damage and that you want to protect them as best you can. Sure, they're not massable like Colossus but that is due to AI glitches which limit their effectiveness past 6 reavers. But we don't love the reaver for this, we love it for it's micro and it's interaction with the shuttle - and let's face it, we're not going to get that back with the Colossus.
But let's really analyze the entertainment value of the Reaver. The Reaver represents 'potential damage' in that it might be able to do a ton of damage, or it might be useless, depending on how each player plays. If a reaver drop comes in and tries to harass a Terrans worker line - if the Terran doesn't pull his workers and glitch the scarab, he's going to take heavy losses. And if he can't shut the reaver down with marines (or turrets) he's going to have a headache in his main.
The point which I'm getting at is that there is a micro dynamic between the Reaver user and the Reaver defender where each side has an opportunity to do something to either increase or decrease the reaver's effectiveness.
The opportunity for the opponent to react indirectly increases the skill cap of the reaver.
Spider mines and Zealots
Zealots represent an incredibly boring unit. They are a melee unit with lots of HP and no special abilities (besides a speed upgrade). But when combined with spider mines suddenly there is a new hidden ability for Zealots - dragging mines around. This indirectly increases the skillcap of the zealot because you need to master how to drag spider mines around to help you break tank lines. This was so important that eventually Terrans would kill their own spider mines as they pushed forward to prevent dragging from being so effective.
Again, the unit interaction between the zealot and spider mine indirectly increased the skill cap of the zealot.
Lurkers and Marines
Marines, essentially, are no different from their SC2 counterpart. Albeit, they have less health and they have ground based medics rather than medivac support. Normally marines get shredded by Lurkers, but with good control marines can trade semi-effectively with them. By splitting to avoid the lurker spines, splash damage is minimised (not unlike marines vs banelings in SC2) and hence increasing the effectiveness of marines.
The lurker indirectly increases the skill cap of the marine by introducing a new skill (marine splitting) which must be mastered.
What about HotS?
Okay, hopefully you get where I'm going with this. Units in a vacuum have a skill cap, but when interacting against other unit the skill cap can increase. In SC2 we have some good examples of that (marines vs banelings, mutas vs thors) and we have some examples of catastrophic failures (forcefield, fungal). However, HotS is actually introducing a ton of new units which increase the skillcap of some of the most hated spells and units.
The Colossus vs the Viper/Swarm Host
The Colossus is going to have its skillcap raised come HotS. It's interaction with Swarm Hosts and Vipers is something to really look forward to.
1) vs Swarm Host.
There are a lot of strong early game swarm host builds in HotS right now. Fact is, they're good. And without some kind of splash (like a Colossus) chances are your base is going to be whittled away in no time. Colossi have enough range to start making dents in Host lines and introduce an interesting Observer/Colossus vs Host/Corruptor(or muta) battle. This is because if you aimlessly try to attack with your whole army chances are you will lose a lot, and then the next waves of locusts will simply finish you off. You need to be picking things off with Colossus (and observers) and Colossus (and observers) need to be protected by stalkers without wandering in range of locusts.
This dynamic is incredibly exciting and beats the BW lurker contain for entertainment value anyday (fuck lurker contains, seriously, they're so boring). Swarms of locusts force engagement, and that Colossus/Host dance that ensues adds a lot of entertainment value to the game.
2) vs Vipers
Abduct could be seen as a really anti-micro spell. You grab and unit, you kill the unit. But that's an incredibly simplistic analysis. That's like saying that Psionic Storm in BW vs hydras was as simple as "you storm the hydra, you kill the hydra" - nope. Abduct forces late game protoss to use more than one hotkey (oh the horror!). Keeping Colossus grouped with everything else is a sure way to get your colossus grabbed and killed. Hence, they need to be kept in a separate hotkey and kept at a distance until Vipers can be mitigated either via feedback or Stalkers. Conversely, Zergs are desperately trying to grab those key units - and given the opportunity they can with abduct.
The tension around whether or not Zergs will be able to abduct Colossus will be a central point of (I suspect slightly less standard) hydra/ling/viper battles. Keeping your Colossus at a distance, but still being able to make them effective so hydras don't steamroll you will be an art and something that will make the Colossus a more difficult unit to use.
This dynamic, in particular, makes me really excited for how it indirectly increases the Colossus skill cap.
Fungal Growth vs Phase Shield
Fungal growth in WoL was stupid. Once fungaled, units should die unless your opponent makes a mistake. It doesn't take a genius to realize that is bad gameplay. But it did take Grubby to introduce the phase shield as an interesting counter to fungal. Basically, casting phase shield will stop fungal growth (and can even prevent it in the first place for a limited time). One would think that this means that mass phase shield will be standard and render infestors obsolete. Not quite so.
Oracles are expensive, phase shield costs a lot of mana, so in a normal game there is an incredibly small window for phase shield to be very effective. This is by no means a bad thing, that small window should be all you need to mitigate fungal. This indirectly increases the skillcap of fungal growth by forcing more intelligent use of the spell, but also phase shield has a high skillcap because of the small window of use. This results in a dynamic which the best pros will be able to utilize to their advantage every time to outplay people.
While the balance is still being fine tuned, this potential conflict is definitely something to be watching.
To the future...
There are a bunch of abilities and units which still don't have everything figured out. Forcefields, for instance, still have no answer from either race (personally I would love to see an ability on the reaper to deal with this). The Tempest is a unit which has potential to be interesting, but is currently priced at a point where we can't discover its potential use. Battle hellions don't really seem to be adding much at the moment, but again it's difficult to properly assess this given the changes they are undergoing.
HotS represents a great opportunity to indirectly increase skill caps. The Zerg additions have all done this in one way or another. And as a result, the Colossus from WoL is no where near as interesting as the Colossus from HotS. We should be pushing for the other additions to HotS to add new micro elements to other units (in particular, the problematic units from WoL) rather than focusing on units in a vacuum.
P.S. I realise this is nothing new for a lot of you, but there are a lot of posts in HotS and elsewhere which made me think that this post was necessary.
 
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Glad they removed the warhound.... can't say it added any micro the game whatsoever. I'm still somewhat skeptical at the moment, this death ball syndrome is a bit still an issue, I suppose its unlikely blizzard will change any of these fundamental mechanics like unit clumping or limit selection but I do hope some how the widow mines or swarm host breaks up the balls. Even from a spectators point of view its more exciting to see these little struggles than the big shit hitting the fan.
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What I like about abduct is that now toss can no long just roam with a consolidated deathball and have no fear of being contested once they get their colossus out. Abduct forces them to babysit their army just like terran and zerg have to babysit their army to make sure they don't get an absolutely awful engagement. Unfortunately a lot of people will probably compain about how OP abduct is, but imo it's and a very interesting and welcome gameplay mechanic.
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(fuck lurker contains, seriously, they're so boring)
I laughed out loud.
Oh.. the frustrations of Lurkers. You brought back some old wounds Plexa.
I'm not quite sold on Phase Shield just yet, I would rather something be done directly to Fungal Growth to make it more interesting /shrug.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is taking a lot of time focusing on spicing up Protoss vs Zerg, and thank god for that. The match up looks very promising from everything I've seen of it so far.
One thing missing from this list slightly is what the Tempest potentially brings to late PvZ and PvP. Its role as a long distance anti-massive unit could potentially do a lot in changing the way those late game match ups are played out, which is something I'm really hoping for.
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I definitely agree with this post, Plexa always has great articles. The one real negative thing I would say, is that as a protoss player, while PvZ will become more interesting and dynamic in HotS, none of the changes really do anything to improve or affect the PvT matchup at all to make it more interesting (it is mentioned in the article that the battle hellion is boring, and also phase shield has no place in PvT at all, nor does the Tempest). This is somewhat disappointing.
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On September 23 2012 16:41 RedChaos wrote:
I definitely agree with this post, Plexa always has great articles. The one real negative thing I would say, is that as a protoss player, while PvZ will become more interesting and dynamic in HotS, none of the changes really do anything to improve or affect the PvT matchup at all to make it more interesting (it is mentioned in the article that the battle hellion is boring, and also phase shield has no place in PvT at all, nor does the Tempest). This is somewhat disappointing.
Honestly, is that so bad?
PvT is watchable, it produces some amazing games. Terrans cry about Protoss lategame, Protoss cry that Terran can still win with EMP/Viking + amazing splits, drops, you name it. People say that PvT is imbalanced.
Well, PvT hovers around 50%. It's pretty balanced and I would say it's very watchable. It's interesting. Even if there are "deathball vs deathball" fights, I've seen Terrans and Protosses have their unique flair. Look at HerO's multitasking or PartinG's storm-based style or Rain (the Kespa player) or on the Terran's side, TaeJa (sick multitasking/doom drop play, sick splits vs AoE, sick lategame control), Mvp (he always brings something new, mass BCs anyone?), SuperNova (tanks in TvP, yes!).
On the other hand, who actually enjoys PvZ nowadays?
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I think the entertainment value of lurker contains depend on the players and the map. Some maps (like sniper ridge) are way too abusive for lurker contains and lead to drawn-out unbreakable contains, but a map like fighting spirit (where protoss can take a 3rd and break out through a back entrence) it can be pretty cool. I'll always remember that game on fighting spirit where JD lurker contained kal for like 10 minutes and then kal broke out the back-way and almost killed jaedong (and then jaedong came back with insane dark swarms off of like 1 defiler and killed kal).
Also corruptors shooting at observers isn't nearly as cool as scourge sniping observers 
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nice article. I always think that people don't really realize that micro potential comes from how unit interact with each other not from forcefully making so called "micro intensive unit".
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Italy12246 Posts
The ghost vs templar mechanic is part of one of those too, and it's really exciting to watch.
Anyway, the viper/swarm host might mitigate the problems with the colossus, but those problems are still there and not addressed in the other two matchups, so the unit will still be pretty boring a lot of the time. At least it's a step forward though.
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Also spidermines were great for entertainment value not just because of mine-drags but also because they created the extra element of mine-sweeping / laying. A good terran would lay mines all over the map while building up his tank count and a good protoss was proactively clearing the mines. But you had to pay just attention to your goons because otherwise an observer can get too far ahead and your goons will walk into mines (basically same principle for ZvT too if the Terran goes mech).
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They should try to change the lesser used units, especially the reaper to have specific roles, like as mentioned above destroying force fields or such. I just want a game where every unit can be microed to the users advantage, unlike units like the thor/colossus.
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I hadn't been complaining about the lack of strategic depth being added in HotS so far, but I hadn't made any of those connections. Actually makes me more excited, lol. Thanks for the post. 
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nice changed blizzard do , warhound was hard to beat in mech setup
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On September 23 2012 16:17 Vindicare605 wrote:I laughed out loud. Oh.. the frustrations of Lurkers. You brought back some old wounds Plexa. I'm not quite sold on Phase Shield just yet, I would rather something be done directly to Fungal Growth to make it more interesting /shrug. It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is taking a lot of time focusing on spicing up Protoss vs Zerg, and thank god for that. The match up looks very promising from everything I've seen of it so far. One thing missing from this list slightly is what the Tempest potentially brings to late PvZ and PvP. Its role as a long distance anti-massive unit could potentially do a lot in changing the way those late game match ups are played out, which is something I'm really hoping for.
A few people have experimented with using Tempests in PvP to snipe Colossi (which works rather well). That could possibly be another way to increase the Colossus skill cap as it would be much harder to protect them.
Also, given that Stalkers don't do much dps, I think that keeping your Tempests alive is a doable job. All in all, PvP seems to develop in a very fortunate way (mainly due to imba mothership core :> fast expands yeah!).
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Awesome write-up with great insight! I think I knew it back in my mind but didnt realise it. Thanks for pointing it out!
Only thing that I dont like is that there is not much by terran but maybe we had a lot of interaction in TvX in WoL already
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 23 2012 16:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
One thing missing from this list slightly is what the Tempest potentially brings to late PvZ and PvP. Its role as a long distance anti-massive unit could potentially do a lot in changing the way those late game match ups are played out, which is something I'm really hoping for.
I would have loved to have talked about this properly, but with its ridiculous cost I haven't found many situations where I can use them. The one PvP I had where I used them was kind of weird since neither of us where really sure what to do. In the end my opponent won (without tempest) because he got mothership and I forgot to (doh). Tempests killed his mothership pretty quickly but I lost a lot of army because of it. Also my brief playtime with them suggests that people will work out the optimal number of tempests to have (I think 4 so they can 2 shot Colossus) and have that as a standard addition to any protoss lategame army. Although with that said, Tempests really don't kill Colossus fast enough for them to be effective in battle - just from a distance.
On September 23 2012 18:25 Tppz! wrote:
Only thing that I dont like is that there is not much by terran but maybe we had a lot of interaction in TvX in WoL already Yeah I don't like this either. Battle hellion is in a confusing place what being biological but a mech unit? It would make x10 more sense to bring back the firebat if that is the direction they want to go. I can see them being a balance problem down the road as well because their splash damage at the moment is insane, so 4 bhellions in your mineral line will kill almost everything whereas 4 hellions won't necessarily. If you overnerf the splash then battle hellions lose a lot of their utility, so I really think its time to split it into a different unit.
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At this point though, I don't have any ideas for terran that even sound good to me. They're trying so hard to make HotS the BW of vanilla SC, but except for the valkyrie and spells/skills that would be OP with smart AI, everything is already in the Terran arsenal.
I think Blizzard is going to have to introduce a new mechanic for Terran rather than a new unit in order to compete with what Protoss and Zerg currently have and will get in HotS. Maybe some sort of universal salvage ability? Upgradable skills (mammoth tank from C&C: Generals)? Attack mules? I can't think of anything that wouldn't break the game, while not being completely useless at the same time.
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Protoss can delay fights with zergs already with forcefields, phase shield sounds so strong. There is no other efficient splash damage option for zerg.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 23 2012 18:54 imBLIND wrote:
At this point though, I don't have any ideas for terran that even sound good to me. They're trying so hard to make HotS the BW of vanilla SC, but except for the valkyrie and spells/skills that would be OP with smart AI, everything is already in the Terran arsenal.
I think Blizzard is going to have to introduce a new mechanic for Terran rather than a new unit in order to compete with what Protoss and Zerg currently have and will get in HotS. Maybe some sort of universal salvage ability? Upgradable skills (mammoth tank from C&C: Generals)? Attack mules? I can't think of anything that wouldn't break the game, while not being completely useless at the same time.
Or they could just make Ravens usable. That would be like getting a new unit in itself!
On September 23 2012 19:19 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Protoss can delay fights with zergs already with forcefields, phase shield sounds so strong.
Phase shield isn't great, it has the area of a forcefield and costs 75 mana for a 5second immunity to fungal. Not so great when your army is massive. But its big enough to counter fungal if done properly. Good in the right hands, very average in the wrong hands.
Forcefields lose their effect as the game goes on and sentries become dead supply.
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On September 23 2012 19:23 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 18:54 imBLIND wrote:
At this point though, I don't have any ideas for terran that even sound good to me. They're trying so hard to make HotS the BW of vanilla SC, but except for the valkyrie and spells/skills that would be OP with smart AI, everything is already in the Terran arsenal.
I think Blizzard is going to have to introduce a new mechanic for Terran rather than a new unit in order to compete with what Protoss and Zerg currently have and will get in HotS. Maybe some sort of universal salvage ability? Upgradable skills (mammoth tank from C&C: Generals)? Attack mules? I can't think of anything that wouldn't break the game, while not being completely useless at the same time. Or they could just make Ravens usable. That would be like getting a new unit in itself! Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 19:19 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Protoss can delay fights with zergs already with forcefields, phase shield sounds so strong. Phase shield isn't great, it has the area of a forcefield and costs 75 mana for a 5second immunity to fungal. Not so great when your army is massive. But its big enough to counter fungal if done properly. Good in the right hands, very average in the wrong hands. Forcefields lose their effect as the game goes on and sentries become dead supply.
Yes, maybe I have to see it ingame to judge it :/
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I think it's important to make a distinction between skill cap's on abilities/units vs decision making. Fungal growth is still a terrible ability, and there is already a dynamic between pre-splitting your units before engaging. Phase shield will be very similar to pre-splitting units. The only difference is you can retain everything with phase shield, where as pre-splitting still results in some losses.
Really disappointed that Blizzard made fungal growth instant cast instead of a projectile with travel time.
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On September 23 2012 18:44 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 16:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
One thing missing from this list slightly is what the Tempest potentially brings to late PvZ and PvP. Its role as a long distance anti-massive unit could potentially do a lot in changing the way those late game match ups are played out, which is something I'm really hoping for. I would have loved to have talked about this properly, but with its ridiculous cost I haven't found many situations where I can use them. The one PvP I had where I used them was kind of weird since neither of us where really sure what to do. In the end my opponent won (without tempest) because he got mothership and I forgot to (doh). Tempests killed his mothership pretty quickly but I lost a lot of army because of it. Also my brief playtime with them suggests that people will work out the optimal number of tempests to have (I think 4 so they can 2 shot Colossus) and have that as a standard addition to any protoss lategame army. Although with that said, Tempests really don't kill Colossus fast enough for them to be effective in battle - just from a distance. Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 18:25 Tppz! wrote:
Only thing that I dont like is that there is not much by terran but maybe we had a lot of interaction in TvX in WoL already Yeah I don't like this either. Battle hellion is in a confusing place what being biological but a mech unit? It would make x10 more sense to bring back the firebat if that is the direction they want to go. I can see them being a balance problem down the road as well because their splash damage at the moment is insane, so 4 bhellions in your mineral line will kill almost everything whereas 4 hellions won't necessarily. If you overnerf the splash then battle hellions lose a lot of their utility, so I really think its time to split it into a different unit.
The Firebat should be brought back IMHO. And the hellion scrapped and redesigned into a new unit.
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I only wholeheartedly agree with the first part of that video you linked, the rest seems to contradict itself/bring up things i disagree with.
However, I do like how you showed that unit interactions make the game interesting, besides just units. I woulddare say if you wanted to find a good interaction from wol you would just say marine vs stalker early game.
Good blog
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On September 23 2012 20:05 acrimoneyius wrote:
I think it's important to make a distinction between skill cap's on abilities/units vs decision making. Fungal growth is still a terrible ability, and there is already a dynamic between pre-splitting your units before engaging. Phase shield will be very similar to pre-splitting units. The only difference is you can retain everything with phase shield, where as pre-splitting still results in some losses.
Really disappointed that Blizzard made fungal growth instant cast instead of a projectile with travel time.
Yeah, that was a great idea. I dislike that that they took it back. Someone please suggest it to them in their HoTS beta forums - that alone would make it a great spell.
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Plexa, you're just too smart
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oh wow i hadnt thought about this at all
awesmoe write up
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Someone mentioned it somewhere but I'd die to have the reaper as the bio-vulture of HotS having some type of mines. Also, how come they are not playing around with the various d-matrix type of abilities they gave to the mothership (? i think)? Raven could also have some defensive spell like that, and have the terrible little cannon removed.
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ravens usable and viable?
...i guess one can dream :'(
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On September 23 2012 15:39 Plexa wrote:
The Colossus vs the Viper/Swarm Host
The Colossus is going to have its skillcap raised come HotS. It's interaction with Swarm Hosts and Vipers is something to really look forward to.
1) vs Swarm Host.
There are a lot of strong early game swarm host builds in HotS right now. Fact is, they're good. And without some kind of splash (like a Colossus) chances are your base is going to be whittled away in no time. Colossi have enough range to start making dents in Host lines and introduce an interesting Observer/Colossus vs Host/Corruptor(or muta) battle. This is because if you aimlessly try to attack with your whole army chances are you will lose a lot, and then the next waves of locusts will simply finish you off. You need to be picking things off with Colossus (and observers) and Colossus (and observers) need to be protected by stalkers without wandering in range of locusts.
This dynamic is incredibly exciting and beats the BW lurker contain for entertainment value anyday (fuck lurker contains, seriously, they're so boring). Swarms of locusts force engagement, and that Colossus/Host dance that ensues adds a lot of entertainment value to the game.
except that locusts are just as susceptible to FF as every other zerg unit, perhaps even more so due to their extremely slow speed, and have even less health than a hydra. and right, they cant shoot past the FF because of their reduced range either.
so what really changes when facing a sentry/colo ball?
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Plexa gives us hope for hots ♥
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Abduct vs Collosis could make for some pretty cool micro battles I think.
It will actually hurt some Protoss players that the Collosis can walk overtop of your army. If they didn't walk over other units they would naturally sit at the back of the deathball where they would be protected. If you let your army bunch up Vipers are going to jack your shit now.
This will also force reactive Blinks to snipe the Viper before it can steal the Collosis (similar to when fighting Vikings).
Lastly, depending on the Zergs composition.. it might force earlier High Templar so you can use Feedback to defend vs Vipers or else risk Blinking your Stalkers in and getting Fungalled to death.
More micro and less a-moving means the best Protoss players will excel. It should add a better dynamic to the matchup
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You have a very genius view on the game and know what you are talking about. I am glad about this blog being a reply to everything wrong that was said by filter (though no offense, he makes very valid points, but his solution is 13 years old). Point is, while filter suggests HotS should just introduce the brood war units, you explain here that the increase of skillcap happens regardless of the unit type introduced.
No matter how madly unbalanced a unit may seem at the beginning, a thriving professional scene will come up with a solution. Only once that solution is cost-balanced can you speak of a fun game mechanic and enjoyable gameplay - both to watch and play.
Although I was heartbroken by the failliure that is Diablo 3, I know there are still tons of talented and intelligent people at Blizzard working on SC2:HotS and I am willing to trust their judgement on units that initially may seem like a horrible choice.
Thanks for this good blog.
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5/5
On September 23 2012 16:16 Jumperer wrote:
Blizzard needs to hire Plexa.
In a more detailed response, I don't have HotS beta and thus it is hard for me to determine the current metagame, however this analysis is very good and very accurate. Plexa never ceases to amaze me.
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On September 23 2012 19:23 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 18:54 imBLIND wrote:
At this point though, I don't have any ideas for terran that even sound good to me. They're trying so hard to make HotS the BW of vanilla SC, but except for the valkyrie and spells/skills that would be OP with smart AI, everything is already in the Terran arsenal.
I think Blizzard is going to have to introduce a new mechanic for Terran rather than a new unit in order to compete with what Protoss and Zerg currently have and will get in HotS. Maybe some sort of universal salvage ability? Upgradable skills (mammoth tank from C&C: Generals)? Attack mules? I can't think of anything that wouldn't break the game, while not being completely useless at the same time. Or they could just make Ravens usable. That would be like getting a new unit in itself! Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 19:19 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Protoss can delay fights with zergs already with forcefields, phase shield sounds so strong. Phase shield isn't great, it has the area of a forcefield and costs 75 mana for a 5second immunity to fungal. Not so great when your army is massive. But its big enough to counter fungal if done properly. Good in the right hands, very average in the wrong hands. Forcefields lose their effect as the game goes on and sentries become dead supply.
Oh mai god man. Imagine the possiblities if they actually purposely balanced the raven for lategame. You know, like tweaking the raven energy for the seeker missile like they accidentally did at the start of the HOTS beta.
:D Honestly, it's quite sad to believe they "accidentally" balanced TvZ lategame by accident and then they revert the change.
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always a nice reading, thx
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On September 23 2012 17:02 Ideas wrote:I think the entertainment value of lurker contains depend on the players and the map. Some maps (like sniper ridge) are way too abusive for lurker contains and lead to drawn-out unbreakable contains, but a map like fighting spirit (where protoss can take a 3rd and break out through a back entrence) it can be pretty cool. I'll always remember that game on fighting spirit where JD lurker contained kal for like 10 minutes and then kal broke out the back-way and almost killed jaedong (and then jaedong came back with insane dark swarms off of like 1 defiler and killed kal). Also corruptors shooting at observers isn't nearly as cool as scourge sniping observers
do you still just come into sc2 threads to snipe it? 2 years after the game is out and after professional BW has had its last televised finals? Shouldn't you start trying to appreciate sc2 for what it is, or stop coming to this website entirely? I also remember that game, i think it was an MSL semifinal, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing that swarmhosts could add an entirely new, perhaps even more exciting type of games.
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Hmm, I like your points Plexa, they're very interesting. Increasing the skill cap of units and combining them with others does seem to add a lot more to the game.
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I still don't like phase shield and would rather see fungal growth being changed (together with so many other stuff)
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I agree but from watching Hots Streams the only real gameplay changer is Swarmhost and Viper PvP and PvT look the same Protoss sitting around defending tell 200 then going. Only seen a couple cool recall plays on NonY's stream.
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This thread, more than any other, has renewed my interest in SC2 which had been slowly crumbling away.
I'm still wondering how ZVT is going to change with swarm hosts, too :o
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 24 2012 09:35 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
I agree but from watching Hots Streams the only real gameplay changer is Swarmhost and Viper PvP and PvT look the same Protoss sitting around defending tell 200 then going. Only seen a couple cool recall plays on NonY's stream.
PvP and PvT are largely the same because nothing significant happened in either matchup. There is an outside chance that some mech or biomech becomes viable now that mines have a better splash damage, but other than that there isn't much.
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What are you thoughts on the current interaction in WoL between P and Z lategame armies? Is it fun/interesting that the only way to combat brood lords it to get off a good vortex? Or is it just a bit too far that the only way you can repel the Z deathball is with a hero unit than you can build only one of?
Has anyone used Tempest in late game PvZ in HotS?
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Great analysis, Plexa!
I fully agree that HoTS seems to be making the game much better.
I also agree with Blizzard. Let's first try to uncover the potential of all new units, and understand how they change the gameplay. After that we'll be able to better understand how to buff/redesign some WoL units that need attention (underused units with great micro potential like raven come to mind).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 24 2012 12:50 DRTnOOber wrote:
What are you thoughts on the current interaction in WoL between P and Z lategame armies? Is it fun/interesting that the only way to combat brood lords it to get off a good vortex? Or is it just a bit too far that the only way you can repel the Z deathball is with a hero unit than you can build only one of?
Has anyone used Tempest in late game PvZ in HotS?
Vortex does create some tension, arguably the wrong kind of tension but whatever. That isn't the only way for a protoss to counter late game zerg - multipronged harass and carriers are effective tools given you have the economy for that. Vortex is a spell which can punish zergs for being lazy, which is a good thing, but as the skill of players increases its utility should decrease.
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On September 23 2012 16:14 Antimatterz wrote:
What I like about abduct is that now toss can no long just roam with a consolidated deathball and have no fear of being contested once they get their colossus out. Abduct forces them to babysit their army just like terran and zerg have to babysit their army to make sure they don't get an absolutely awful engagement. Unfortunately a lot of people will probably compain about how OP abduct is, but imo it's and a very interesting and welcome gameplay mechanic.
They have to babysit their army too? Lol corrupters vikings etc.
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OMG I JUST THEORY CRAFTED THE MOST EPIC THING EVER.
Abduct Colossus into Force Fields.
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I don't have the HotS beta, but from a theorycrafting point of view, Bio-Battle Hellions could bring back a interesting dynamic that I liked to see in BW Mech TvT. I will try to explain myself:
In BW, you could use dropships to make your immobile mech army a lot more mobile. It was useful for doom dropping on top of armies/bases and fast repositioning. Things like these makes the matchup tense and exciting.I think this game explains for itself:
+ Show Spoiler +
In WoL, if you had a Mech vs Mech matchup, there was no reason to make medivacs except for hellion drops(Rarely saw doomdrops in that kind of matchup, only one I recall was Mvp vs TOP doomdrop). Gas is limited and it is preferable to spend gas on mech units and vikings as it provides vision for the tanks.
Maybe in HotS,in a Mech vs Mech matchup, bio-battle hellions will make the terran player to have a mixed balance of vikings and medivacs, because gas is limited and he also wants to keep the hellions effective with healing. Suddenly, you have multiple medivacs at your disposition and it could create some interesting play One of my concerns is that the viking's long range can deter that. But again, it makes point defense drone even more useful! Also, dropships were much faster in BW and it's one of the big reasons that it could work. I wonder what it would be like if a player goes mech + medivacs vs a marine tank player or bio player.
I don't really watch any streams, so I would like to know if it's pratical or not.
My thoughts.
Edit: random stuff,poor grammar, blabla
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On September 24 2012 18:06 Moka wrote:I don't have the HotS beta, but from a theorycrafting point of view, Bio-Battle Hellions could bring back a interesting dynamic that I liked to see in BW Mech TvT. I will try to explain myself: In BW, you could use dropships to make your immobile mech army a lot more mobile. It was useful for doom dropping on top of armies/bases and fast repositioning. Things like these makes the matchup tense and exciting.I think this game explains for itself: + Show Spoiler +In WoL, if you had a Mech vs Mech matchup, there was no reason to make medivacs except for hellion drops(Rarely saw doomdrops in that kind of matchup, only one I recall was Mvp vs TOP doomdrop). Gas is limited and it is preferable to spend gas on mech units and vikings as it provides vision for the tanks. Maybe in HotS,in a Mech vs Mech matchup, bio-battle hellions will make the terran player to have a mixed balance of vikings and medivacs, because gas is limited and he also wants to keep the hellions effective with healing. Suddenly, you have multiple medivacs at your disposition and it could create some interesting play One of my concerns is that the viking's long range can deter that. But again, it makes point defense drone even more useful! Also, dropships were much faster in BW and it's one of the big reasons that it could work. I wonder what it would be like if a player goes mech + medivacs vs a marine tank player or bio player. I don't really watch any streams, so I would like to know if it's pratical or not. My thoughts. Edit: random stuff,poor grammar, blabla
Intersting points.
However I think drops in Mech haven't been so popular because of the relative ease of taking them out.
1) In WOL because Tanks are bad in small numbers, and the lack of Mines means that Stimed Bio can take care of any mech drop.
2) Not to mention that unlike Goliaths, Vikings are immune to Tanks and more mobile, making it easier to take out the drop ship.
3) Also the fact that sensor towers exist is a direct nerf to drops, as it allow the Opponent to easily spot incoming drops.
4)Last the supply that goes into mech drops in WOL is too much. 2 Tanks, 6 Mines, 2 Vultures, and 2 Drop ships in BW was 12 Supply. 2 Tanks, 6 Mines, 2 Hellions, and 3 Dropships(per need), takes 30 Supply.
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On September 24 2012 21:10 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 18:06 Moka wrote:I don't have the HotS beta, but from a theorycrafting point of view, Bio-Battle Hellions could bring back a interesting dynamic that I liked to see in BW Mech TvT. I will try to explain myself: In BW, you could use dropships to make your immobile mech army a lot more mobile. It was useful for doom dropping on top of armies/bases and fast repositioning. Things like these makes the matchup tense and exciting.I think this game explains for itself: + Show Spoiler +In WoL, if you had a Mech vs Mech matchup, there was no reason to make medivacs except for hellion drops(Rarely saw doomdrops in that kind of matchup, only one I recall was Mvp vs TOP doomdrop). Gas is limited and it is preferable to spend gas on mech units and vikings as it provides vision for the tanks. Maybe in HotS,in a Mech vs Mech matchup, bio-battle hellions will make the terran player to have a mixed balance of vikings and medivacs, because gas is limited and he also wants to keep the hellions effective with healing. Suddenly, you have multiple medivacs at your disposition and it could create some interesting play One of my concerns is that the viking's long range can deter that. But again, it makes point defense drone even more useful! Also, dropships were much faster in BW and it's one of the big reasons that it could work. I wonder what it would be like if a player goes mech + medivacs vs a marine tank player or bio player. I don't really watch any streams, so I would like to know if it's pratical or not. My thoughts. Edit: random stuff,poor grammar, blabla Intersting points. However I think drops in Mech haven't been so popular because of the relative ease of taking them out. 1) In WOL because Tanks are bad in small numbers, and the lack of Mines means that Stimed Bio can take care of any mech drop. 2) Not to mention that unlike Goliaths, Vikings are immune to Tanks and more mobile, making it easier to take out the drop ship. 3) Also the fact that sensor towers exist is a direct nerf to drops, as it allow the Opponent to easily spot incoming drops. 4)Last the supply that goes into mech drops in WOL is too much. 2 Tanks, 6 Mines, 2 Vultures, and 2 Drop ships in BW was 12 Supply. 2 Tanks, 6 Mines, 2 Hellions, and 3 Dropships(per need), takes 30 Supply.
I agree with the points that you mentionned. Supply costs is really big and two or three well placed widow mines could wipe out instantly your whole medivac squad, thus your 30 supply drop, or even your whole army if you clumped the medivacs for a doomdrop. It might be too risky to carry expensive mech units like that.
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Does phase shield prevent Neural Parasite? If so, getting a good vortex will be so much easier.
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I still dont like the concept of zerg having that many free units. A zerg tier 3 army could eventually end up fighting for free.
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Sure, they're not massable like Colossus but that is due to AI glitches which limit their effectiveness past 6 reavers.
No, it's not. Even I, a mere B level user, can control 10+ reavers. The reason you don't mass reavers in PvP is because of high templars. If there were no high templars, you would see ~15 reavers on both sides in lategame PvP.
In PvZ, where Protoss doesn't have to worry about storm, you do see more than six Reavers when the Protoss has enough gas to collect that many. For example: Free vs Jaedong on Athena.
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Phase shield was Grubby's idea?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:00 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +Sure, they're not massable like Colossus but that is due to AI glitches which limit their effectiveness past 6 reavers. No, it's not. Even I, a mere B level user, can control 10+ reavers. The reason you don't mass reavers in PvP is because of high templars. If there were no high templars, you would see ~15 reavers on both sides in lategame PvP. In PvZ, where Protoss doesn't have to worry about storm, you do see more than six Reavers when the Protoss has enough gas to collect that many. For example: Free vs Jaedong on Athena.
Reavers are just as good as high templar in terms of damage output - 125 scarab, 121 storm - and scarabs are instant with splash while storm is over time. So why don't we see more reavers in PvP? It's not because storm exists, because in general one reaver will do a ton more damage than one templar. It's because Reavers has a far greater tendency to overkill units than with storm. Plus you don't want to be wandering around with 5+ shuttles in PvP. As far as I can remember, a lot of PvPs in the last 3 years of BWs life would still have some base line level of reavers (2~4) just so that they could deal with mass zealot better (reavers own zealots a lot harder than storm, lets face it). After you pass 4 reavers it becomes a better investment to get storm.
If storm were so much superior then why do we normally go reaver > templar and not templar first every game? (Yes I realise that DT openers often go templar first, but that is because you've already invested in templar tech and are often cutting corners to try and depend your expansion with DTs) (Yes I also recognise that you need observers to counter DTs, but if templars were so much stronger you would see cannons replace observers in the early game).
And yes, in PvZ you will see more than 6 reavers in rare occasions. In sair/reaver you can have more than 6 because you can't really overkill a hive (or lair). And yes, Free did use more than 6 in his match against Jaedong - but that doesn't change the fact that 4 reavers with your army was standard (4 = dead ultra).
On September 25 2012 00:48 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Phase shield was Grubby's idea?
Yes, he proposed it in the pro forum
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Just don't play HOTS, we all know DB is going to make it crap
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On September 24 2012 06:43 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 17:02 Ideas wrote:I think the entertainment value of lurker contains depend on the players and the map. Some maps (like sniper ridge) are way too abusive for lurker contains and lead to drawn-out unbreakable contains, but a map like fighting spirit (where protoss can take a 3rd and break out through a back entrence) it can be pretty cool. I'll always remember that game on fighting spirit where JD lurker contained kal for like 10 minutes and then kal broke out the back-way and almost killed jaedong (and then jaedong came back with insane dark swarms off of like 1 defiler and killed kal). Also corruptors shooting at observers isn't nearly as cool as scourge sniping observers do you still just come into sc2 threads to snipe it? 2 years after the game is out and after professional BW has had its last televised finals? Shouldn't you start trying to appreciate sc2 for what it is, or stop coming to this website entirely? I also remember that game, i think it was an MSL semifinal, but it doesn't prevent me from seeing that swarmhosts could add an entirely new, perhaps even more exciting type of games.
Lol.
Don't you think he tried to appreciate SC2 for what it is? I think he tried and failed, because he likes what BW is more than what SC2 is.
Reavers are just as good as high templar in terms of damage output - 125 scarab, 121 storm - and scarabs are instant with splash while storm is over time. So why don't we see more reavers in PvP? It's not because storm exists, because in general one reaver will do a ton more damage than one templar. It's because Reavers has a far greater tendency to overkill units than with storm. Plus you don't want to be wandering around with 5+ shuttles in PvP. As far as I can remember, a lot of PvPs in the last 3 years of BWs life would still have some base line level of reavers (2~4) just so that they could deal with mass zealot better (reavers own zealots a lot harder than storm, lets face it). After you pass 4 reavers it becomes a better investment to get storm.
If storm were so much superior then why do we normally go reaver > templar and not templar first every game? (Yes I realise that DT openers often go templar first, but that is because you've already invested in templar tech and are often cutting corners to try and depend your expansion with DTs) (Yes I also recognise that you need observers to counter DTs, but if templars were so much stronger you would see cannons replace observers in the early game).
And yes, in PvZ you will see more than 6 reavers in rare occasions. In sair/reaver you can have more than 6 because you can't really overkill a hive (or lair). And yes, Free did use more than 6 in his match against Jaedong - but that doesn't change the fact that 4 reavers with your army was standard (4 = dead ultra).
Reavers are slow, and most effective when clumped up. That's why they get owned by storm. Furthermore, storm damages both the shuttle and the reavers at the same time. The reason people go reavers first is because reavers are better vs dragoons and zealots than templars, but get owned by storm. It's not like if reavers lost whatever "glitchy AI" you are referring to, they would be used in higher numbers and for longer periods of time in PvP.
Storm on reavers completely shuts them down. It either destroys the reavers, or forces them to move. Since they move so slowly, not only will they still take lots of damage from the storm, but they won't be able to attack for a long time, since it takes so long to move out of the storm for them. And when the storm is finally over, you can just put another storm on the reavers, which will destroy them. A templar only has to release the psi storm, and he has done his job. A reaver has to stand there attacking for the entire battle, but because of storm, it can't do that.
Even if you have the most amazing micro in the world, and can manage 4 shuttles with reavers at the same time to storm dodge, the storm will force you to pick the reaver up and drop it off, and during that duration, it does no damage. The storm, on the other hand, is damaging both the shuttle / reaver and the rest of your army. The reason it's damaging the rest of your army as well is that if you position your reavers seperate from your main army, they will just get sniped by dragoons and zealots. You need to have your reavers close to your dragoons, behind the zealots.
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As a zerg player I'm a bit scared and very excited about phase shield.
It should make it so the mothership will be much harder to neural, before a mothership lagging a bit behind could get neuraled even if the protoss saw the infestor closing in, but now an oracle right next to it should be able to cast phase shield because of the delay between casting neural and the unit being neuraled. Negating fungal on blink stalkers or archons trying to get in a vortex is also pretty big.
I didn't see enough games to see it by myself but if the oracle is killed does the shield end or does it keep going?
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Discussions like these actually make me excited to play SC again.
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I really like this. Finally one step away from the whining about how crap X, Y and Z is in HOTS to bringing up potential new exciting gameplay.
E: Upon rereading I figure it seems to stem from the fact that you focus on PvZ which leaves the "tank issue" alone. It seems like a lot of Terrans are on a crusade for positional play.
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Canada13386 Posts
I just wanna point out ONE thing about viper abduct and collossus.
One day there will be a warp prism, and a collossus. The vipers will come close and the collossus go into the prism. When the abduct comes the prism drops the collossus and the collossus lives. It will happen one day. I am sure of it. And when it does, I and all other SC2 protoss players will flip our shit.
That is all.
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Italy12246 Posts
I feel so fucking stupid for not thinking of that before. I was going more along the lines of "yeah colossi will be shit, immortal storm will be the standard".
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I haven't watched a lot of HotS so I don't know much about this, but aren't the dynamics between a zerg army with vipers and a protoss army with colossus + phase shield interesting (enphasis on the phase shield)? Seems to me that since the phase shield can be used as a specific counter to abduct and lasts for 5 seconds, there can be a nice management of timing windows on where and when to attack with your colossus. Is it something that is being explored?
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Idk how viable that would be against decent zergs. Zerg can just feint in, force the preemptive phase shield, and run away until it runs out 5 sec later. Or the P could roll the dice and wait for the abduct to actually happen before phase shielding. Problem is, abduct pulls stuff pretty fast and phase shield range is tiny so you would need absolute lightning reflexes to get it.
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Canada13386 Posts
On September 26 2012 10:14 Fatam wrote:
Idk how viable that would be against decent zergs. Zerg can just feint in, force the preemptive phase shield, and run away until it runs out 5 sec later. Or the P could roll the dice and wait for the abduct to actually happen before phase shielding. Problem is, abduct pulls stuff pretty fast and phase shield range is tiny so you would need absolute lightning reflexes to get it.
This is exactly why its going to be so so awesome to watch.
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The window for Oracles is indeed very small, as with their low health/shield corruptors make very quick work of them. Perhaps a late game 200/200 shield upgrade (+150 perhaps?) could solve this? Since by that time players have (or should have) enough anti-air to shut down oracle harass, and people would pay that amount to stop their oracles from insta-dying to a few corruptors. Another thought I had is perhaps to make the Oracle cloak itself while stationary, sort of like one of the heroes from WC3, though that might be too strong,
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Italy12246 Posts
What's the range on Phase Shield btw? It's not on Liquipedia yet.
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Ooh interesting stuff. Sounds pretty good actually, and perhaps we really could get a significant improvement in how fun the game is and in how high the skill cap is :3 thanks once again for the write-up~
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Interesting comparison of the swarm host to the lurker.
However I think the Swarm Host lacks the ability to rapidly shift from a strong area contain function to anything that involves aggression. While the lurker was good at keeping and holding ground, it was also possible to attack and swarm with lings to cut off a retreat, and then burrow lurkers nearby to deal damage to an army. In this regard, I still think swarm hosts are very one dimensional, as they only have one defined role.
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EPT
