• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:13
CEST 01:13
KST 08:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension0Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10
StarCraft 2
General
Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
$5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 549 users

HOTS - better then I expected

Blogs > blade55555
Post a Reply
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 08 2012 05:27 GMT
#1
I'll go on to say right now I don't have a beta key so all my experience is from a spectator and watching a TON of streams this week (something I haven't done since like sc2 beta when i wasn't in).

So with HOTS I have been excited about it for awhile as a zerg player the new units look good and so far they have not disappointed me in the days I have watched.

In sc2 as it is every zerg I know absolutely hates the zvp match up, this isn't due to balance (some thing it is) but not even talking about balance it is one of the dullest mu's in the game (PvP imo is worse). I think most people can agree that zvp is really not a fun match up to watch, it literally consists of 3 scenarios.

Either protoss 2 base all ins and wins or they lose or the game goes into a "macro" game where both players get a deathball and whoever engages the best either by protoss getting a good vortex, or whatever the game is over once that deathball dies 99% of the time.

Literally no excitement in the match up. Look at zvt and you don't get that. Even though zerg is still going for that fast hive, there is normally aggresion for a good part of it where the terran is dropping, splitting and not sitting grabbing their own deathball.

Now the one thing I hate about playing zerg in general is the fact that you pretty much have to go hive and you can do lair aggression, but if you don't do damage 9 times out of 10 you are dead. Normally it's defend - get hive - get ultras/broodlords - then you can start being aggressive.

Watching HOTS even in this early stage has made even watching zvp a lot more fun then WoL zvp. zvt is still fun to watch as expected when it's not warhound killing everything .

But the main thing I want to touch on is I feel the new units for zerg (especially the swarm host) have actually made a good impact on gameplay right now. It's obviously very early in the beta and for all I know in a few months/weeks/days/etc this could be different whether swarmhosts become underpowered due to nerfs or players figure out how to counter them who knows it can and obviously will change, but hopefully for the better where swarm hosts will almost always be a standard in zvp/zvt like lurkers are standard in bw zvt/zvp.

I have watched some 20+ minute zvp's and I was entertained watching it. Swarm hosts attacking the front while a few are harassing an expansion. Or my personal favorite was when a zerg (stephano or idra can't remember which) had a swarm host contain on a protoss and was using hydra/overseer to snipe observers so protoss couldn't see the swarm hosts. This reminded me so much of bw zvp in that aspect where it's like "oh shit if he gets the observer no detection!".

Now I want to clarify I don't want sc2 to be like bw, but I just wanted to point out it brought a lot mroe action is more so my point.

The viper I have seen in action and I have also really liked the function of the unit. I watched a zvz where the zerg with vipers used blinding cloud and then fungeled the roach/hydra while attacking with ling/ultra. This made ultra/ling a lot stronger (obviously) and was really fun to see some epic holds where a zerg was attacking up a ramp only to get that blinding cloud and not being able to kill the ultra's (that was vs sheth).

I like the abduct ability, a lot of people don't like it obviously but this is a good ability that I am glad and hope stays in the game. It is very satisfying for me to see zergs using it pretty well in abducting colossi/immortals and while I haven't seen to many vipers due to the hive tech the little I have seen has made me extremely happy with both units (and the buff to blinding cloud in terms of effecting everything will be nice in zvp :D).

I am also happy for the most part with the terran units as well. I feel the spider mine isn't being utilized enough and although I know players say it's week I think it's got great potential. For example mines can be used to deny ling runby's in the third when you are attacking and I am surprised I haven't seen that used very much. Although I have heard terran players keep forgetting spider mines exist because they are to busy making warhounds.

I in general like the design of the battle hellion and feel this alone makes mech a lot more viable even if the warhound was removed. Correct me if I am wrong but from what I know one of the biggest issues with mech in current WoL is chargelot/immortal that just decimates mech. With the battle hellions now chargelot's aren't as good and I imagine mech is a lot more viable with just that change, immortals still have hardened shield but I have a feeling mech is still good. Of course this is just theory as terrans are just making warhounds so other then the warhound I actually quiet like the new units or transformation for hellions for terran.

Unfortunately for protoss I feel they got really screwed in hots. I'm sorry but their new units are just absolutely stupid. The oracle is just a weak joke of a unit, it can block minerals which is annoying but it's just so dumb. I don't know what kind of things they could have gave toss but the fact that tempest/oracle are the best they could come up with is really disappointing.

Before I knew about the new units I was curious what protoss could get as I really couldn't think of anything that would make them better as a race that wouldn't make their deathball stronger or something and idk very disappointed with the protoss units and I feel bad for toss, but nothing can be done. I do not see blizzard adding or removing any of the new units no matter how bad they are.


**
When I think of something else, something will go here
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 10:29:40
September 08 2012 05:59 GMT
#2
Agree with most everything, except I feel that Abduct is another terrible anti-micro/positioning spell like forcefield. They end up being fun to use but boring to watch & play against. A simpler, more interesting rework would be to have it halve the range of a targeted unit for a certain period (10s? 15?) - that way sacrificing colossi for damage is an option, and a tankline can be nullified in an engagement without being lost.

Protoss really seems lackluster as stands, though a gateway re-work could make things fine (IMO). Someone did a decent write-up on reddit which basically proposed that the warp-in cooldown increased proportionally the further away from the gateway the units were warped in. If Blizzard actually implemented something like that, zealot/stalker/sentry could finally stop being awful, and the protoss matchups might become more interesting to watch. Stalkers could get a damage buff (possibly an increase to 3 supply, as well), plus some kind of range upgrade at templar tech which would make them much more relevant in the lategame; sentries could be given a defense matrix-style spell to make a sentry/viper dynamic interesting, and make squishy units like void rays/oracles more useful.

If they went in that direction, robotic/stargate units could actually fulfill a support role, rather than being the core of an army as they are now. Oracles could have their cloaking field upgrade returned, making them more than a really expensive harass unit; phoenix would be more viable as your army wouldn't be complete garbage if you make them; void rays might actually be useful. Immortals would become harder to use, with less focus on the forcefields and more on their positioning so that they don't get stuck behind range 6.5/7 stalkers. Tempests could actually fulfill the role Colossi never could, applying pressure, forcing engagements and in general being a fucking siege unit.

To me, Protoss really shouldn't be focused around a couple big, stupid units, surrounded by this really dense ball of support units. I miss the dangerous and expensive protoss of broodwar, spread all across the map, made scary by some gimmicky mechanics and frustrating support units. HotS is the perfect opportunity for Blizzard to go back in that direction, and the units they made seem to fit with it.

On the topic of zerg, though, I think Blizzard fucking nailed it with the swarm host, and the Viper is really close to being awesome too.

Edit: The write-up about warp gate cooldowns for anyone who was curious
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
[N3O]r3d33m3r
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany673 Posts
September 08 2012 07:25 GMT
#3
i agree with most of your points, though i still think w don't need a warhound, but a goliath =P
and yes protoss got screwed over, another type of carrier is what we need not a tempest, and please remove the oracle and add some mobility unit which is strong in small skirmishes
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
September 08 2012 08:15 GMT
#4
Add dark archon for protoss :D
Sup
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 08:20:42
September 08 2012 08:19 GMT
#5
Yeah i kinda agree on it, but Warhounds are absolutely fucking disgusting. TvT in hots is just sad, even worse than current lategame pvp because at least then you kinda have to spread your shit to not get aoe'd...tvt is just amove the biggest warhound ball you can possibly get. I don't see how the design of that unit can be salvaged in any way shape or form, and i feel like a slight rework of the Thor (make it smaller and weaker or something like that) would have been so much better to get a Goliath-like unit.

The oracle right now is a piece of shit because it's so boring and mono dimensional, but if it got an ability like cloaking, stasis or maelstrom it might turn out ok.

With the thempest i just feel like Blizzard has no idea wtf they are doing. They wanted it to counter mass muta (because doing that with a slow expensive capital ship is pure fucking genius right?), then after the phoenix buff they went OH SHIT WTF DO WE DO WITH IT NOW and they just kinda put together...something. Not sure what. I hope it gets reworked.

I do like the Mothership Core though, it sounds pretty interesting.

One thing i would like to touch on is that i still feel like Zerg has a bit of infestor/broodlord syndrome which isn't really addressed in Hots, and stuff like archon toilets or HSM is more of a bandaid solution than an actual design fix. We will see.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 08 2012 08:23 GMT
#6
On September 08 2012 17:19 Teoita wrote:
Yeah i kinda agree on it, but Warhounds are absolutely fucking disgusting. TvT in hots is just sad, even worse than current lategame pvp because at least then you kinda have to spread your shit to not get aoe'd...tvt is just amove the biggest warhound ball you can possibly get. I don't see how the design of that unit can be salvaged in any way shape or form, and i feel like a slight rework of the Thor (make it smaller and weaker or something like that) would have been so much better to get a Goliath-like unit.

The oracle right now is a piece of shit because it's so boring and mono dimensional, but if it got an ability like cloaking, stasis or maelstrom it might turn out ok.

With the thempest i just feel like Blizzard has no idea wtf they are doing. They wanted it to counter mass muta (because doing that with a slow expensive capital ship is pure fucking genius right?), then after the phoenix buff they went OH SHIT WTF DO WE DO WITH IT NOW and they just kinda put together...something. Not sure what. I hope it gets reworked.

I do like the Mothership Core though, it sounds pretty interesting.

One thing i would like to touch on is that i still feel like Zerg has a bit of infestor/broodlord syndrome which isn't really addressed in Hots, and stuff like archon toilets or HSM is more of a bandaid solution than an actual design fix. We will see.


Ya like I said other then warhounds I do like the new terran units. that warhound is just so uninterseting like the toss ones.

But I do wonder what blizzard is going to do with protoss. It's pretty clear their new units are kind of crap and I just don't see how they can possibly make them interesting and not crap. I mean tempest I don't think is a bad unit, but it's just stupid. I mean I would be very surprised if blizzard considered removing and then adding a new unit for toss, but I don't see that happening. They say they will but I don't think they will.

Either way i'm kind of interested what blizzard is going to do about tosses new units as dunno I just don't see them ever being very useful (I keep forgetting mothershipcore is a new unit lol!).
When I think of something else, something will go here
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 08:47:19
September 08 2012 08:46 GMT
#7
Making a BW-like carrier (micro mechanics, tweak cost and build time) or a Tempest like the one in the WoL alpha (or was it beta?) would be nice. That, or make the Tempest shoot Scarabs or something. What do you think of the Oracle with an extra spell like i suggested?
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 08 2012 08:55 GMT
#8
On September 08 2012 17:46 Teoita wrote:
Making a BW-like carrier (micro mechanics, tweak cost and build time) or a Tempest like the one in the WoL alpha (or was it beta?) would be nice. That, or make the Tempest shoot Scarabs or something. What do you think of the Oracle with an extra spell like i suggested?


Hm i'm not sure. I dunno I didn't like the cloacking originally when it was originally like that, maelstrom or stasis might be good but then you have to see how fast you can get it and i'm not sure if that would make it to strong or what. Idk how they can make the oracle interesting and yeah I think toss is pretty much going to have to be the same (for the most part) in hots unless blizzard does something which I doubt they will do.

I do think tempests will probably be used in late game, especially vs zergs who go bl/corr/infestor just because 22 range (as far as I know it's still that range) is very effective vs that composition and as long as you have stalker/mothership/archon support will make the tempests good in that type of situation imo, but I haven't seen any zergs go that corr/inf/bl composition because new units are fun and turtling to hive - getting those units is boring ^^.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
September 08 2012 18:37 GMT
#9
Right now the only stuff i have seen work for protoss is 2 base all ins or turtling to tempests and hoping the opponent doesn't make anti air. Its just so frustarting that toss has to play nothing but all ins or tutrtle to death ball. I do like what zerg got, and mech being better is nice. (But f warhounds)
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
September 09 2012 00:54 GMT
#10
You know, I also have been watching quite a bit, various races and whatnot, and I will say that overall I agree. I think there are some definite balance issues with a few units, but overall the style of gameplay is heightened and I have seen greater and greater multitasking going on. I think that some of the dynamics they have added in are quite interesting and I think that it will take a long time before we see someone truly great at HotS, but I believe they are absolutely heading in the right direction.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 2
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
ZZZero.O166
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Livibee 88
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 843
ZZZero.O 166
Vindicta 14
Dota 2
syndereN448
League of Legends
Grubby4893
Dendi1392
Counter-Strike
fl0m1768
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox540
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor284
Other Games
summit1g15182
Maynarde142
ViBE132
ROOTCatZ56
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5118
BasetradeTV33
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH229
• davetesta35
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 26
• Pr0nogo 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21698
League of Legends
• Doublelift5750
Other Games
• imaqtpie2450
• Scarra2326
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
11h 47m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
WardiTV European League
1d 16h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.