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United States17423 Posts
I'll go on to say right now I don't have a beta key so all my experience is from a spectator and watching a TON of streams this week (something I haven't done since like sc2 beta when i wasn't in).
So with HOTS I have been excited about it for awhile as a zerg player the new units look good and so far they have not disappointed me in the days I have watched.
In sc2 as it is every zerg I know absolutely hates the zvp match up, this isn't due to balance (some thing it is) but not even talking about balance it is one of the dullest mu's in the game (PvP imo is worse). I think most people can agree that zvp is really not a fun match up to watch, it literally consists of 3 scenarios.
Either protoss 2 base all ins and wins or they lose or the game goes into a "macro" game where both players get a deathball and whoever engages the best either by protoss getting a good vortex, or whatever the game is over once that deathball dies 99% of the time.
Literally no excitement in the match up. Look at zvt and you don't get that. Even though zerg is still going for that fast hive, there is normally aggresion for a good part of it where the terran is dropping, splitting and not sitting grabbing their own deathball.
Now the one thing I hate about playing zerg in general is the fact that you pretty much have to go hive and you can do lair aggression, but if you don't do damage 9 times out of 10 you are dead. Normally it's defend - get hive - get ultras/broodlords - then you can start being aggressive.
Watching HOTS even in this early stage has made even watching zvp a lot more fun then WoL zvp. zvt is still fun to watch as expected when it's not warhound killing everything  .
But the main thing I want to touch on is I feel the new units for zerg (especially the swarm host) have actually made a good impact on gameplay right now. It's obviously very early in the beta and for all I know in a few months/weeks/days/etc this could be different whether swarmhosts become underpowered due to nerfs or players figure out how to counter them who knows it can and obviously will change, but hopefully for the better where swarm hosts will almost always be a standard in zvp/zvt like lurkers are standard in bw zvt/zvp.
I have watched some 20+ minute zvp's and I was entertained watching it. Swarm hosts attacking the front while a few are harassing an expansion. Or my personal favorite was when a zerg (stephano or idra can't remember which) had a swarm host contain on a protoss and was using hydra/overseer to snipe observers so protoss couldn't see the swarm hosts. This reminded me so much of bw zvp in that aspect where it's like "oh shit if he gets the observer no detection!".
Now I want to clarify I don't want sc2 to be like bw, but I just wanted to point out it brought a lot mroe action is more so my point.
The viper I have seen in action and I have also really liked the function of the unit. I watched a zvz where the zerg with vipers used blinding cloud and then fungeled the roach/hydra while attacking with ling/ultra. This made ultra/ling a lot stronger (obviously) and was really fun to see some epic holds where a zerg was attacking up a ramp only to get that blinding cloud and not being able to kill the ultra's (that was vs sheth).
I like the abduct ability, a lot of people don't like it obviously but this is a good ability that I am glad and hope stays in the game. It is very satisfying for me to see zergs using it pretty well in abducting colossi/immortals and while I haven't seen to many vipers due to the hive tech the little I have seen has made me extremely happy with both units (and the buff to blinding cloud in terms of effecting everything will be nice in zvp :D).
I am also happy for the most part with the terran units as well. I feel the spider mine isn't being utilized enough and although I know players say it's week I think it's got great potential. For example mines can be used to deny ling runby's in the third when you are attacking and I am surprised I haven't seen that used very much. Although I have heard terran players keep forgetting spider mines exist because they are to busy making warhounds.
I in general like the design of the battle hellion and feel this alone makes mech a lot more viable even if the warhound was removed. Correct me if I am wrong but from what I know one of the biggest issues with mech in current WoL is chargelot/immortal that just decimates mech. With the battle hellions now chargelot's aren't as good and I imagine mech is a lot more viable with just that change, immortals still have hardened shield but I have a feeling mech is still good. Of course this is just theory as terrans are just making warhounds so other then the warhound I actually quiet like the new units or transformation for hellions for terran.
Unfortunately for protoss I feel they got really screwed in hots. I'm sorry but their new units are just absolutely stupid. The oracle is just a weak joke of a unit, it can block minerals which is annoying but it's just so dumb. I don't know what kind of things they could have gave toss but the fact that tempest/oracle are the best they could come up with is really disappointing.
Before I knew about the new units I was curious what protoss could get as I really couldn't think of anything that would make them better as a race that wouldn't make their deathball stronger or something and idk very disappointed with the protoss units and I feel bad for toss, but nothing can be done. I do not see blizzard adding or removing any of the new units no matter how bad they are.
  
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Agree with most everything, except I feel that Abduct is another terrible anti-micro/positioning spell like forcefield. They end up being fun to use but boring to watch & play against. A simpler, more interesting rework would be to have it halve the range of a targeted unit for a certain period (10s? 15?) - that way sacrificing colossi for damage is an option, and a tankline can be nullified in an engagement without being lost.
Protoss really seems lackluster as stands, though a gateway re-work could make things fine (IMO). Someone did a decent write-up on reddit which basically proposed that the warp-in cooldown increased proportionally the further away from the gateway the units were warped in. If Blizzard actually implemented something like that, zealot/stalker/sentry could finally stop being awful, and the protoss matchups might become more interesting to watch. Stalkers could get a damage buff (possibly an increase to 3 supply, as well), plus some kind of range upgrade at templar tech which would make them much more relevant in the lategame; sentries could be given a defense matrix-style spell to make a sentry/viper dynamic interesting, and make squishy units like void rays/oracles more useful.
If they went in that direction, robotic/stargate units could actually fulfill a support role, rather than being the core of an army as they are now. Oracles could have their cloaking field upgrade returned, making them more than a really expensive harass unit; phoenix would be more viable as your army wouldn't be complete garbage if you make them; void rays might actually be useful. Immortals would become harder to use, with less focus on the forcefields and more on their positioning so that they don't get stuck behind range 6.5/7 stalkers. Tempests could actually fulfill the role Colossi never could, applying pressure, forcing engagements and in general being a fucking siege unit.
To me, Protoss really shouldn't be focused around a couple big, stupid units, surrounded by this really dense ball of support units. I miss the dangerous and expensive protoss of broodwar, spread all across the map, made scary by some gimmicky mechanics and frustrating support units. HotS is the perfect opportunity for Blizzard to go back in that direction, and the units they made seem to fit with it.
On the topic of zerg, though, I think Blizzard fucking nailed it with the swarm host, and the Viper is really close to being awesome too.
Edit: The write-up about warp gate cooldowns for anyone who was curious
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i agree with most of your points, though i still think w don't need a warhound, but a goliath =P
and yes protoss got screwed over, another type of carrier is what we need not a tempest, and please remove the oracle and add some mobility unit which is strong in small skirmishes
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Add dark archon for protoss :D
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i kinda agree on it, but Warhounds are absolutely fucking disgusting. TvT in hots is just sad, even worse than current lategame pvp because at least then you kinda have to spread your shit to not get aoe'd...tvt is just amove the biggest warhound ball you can possibly get. I don't see how the design of that unit can be salvaged in any way shape or form, and i feel like a slight rework of the Thor (make it smaller and weaker or something like that) would have been so much better to get a Goliath-like unit.
The oracle right now is a piece of shit because it's so boring and mono dimensional, but if it got an ability like cloaking, stasis or maelstrom it might turn out ok.
With the thempest i just feel like Blizzard has no idea wtf they are doing. They wanted it to counter mass muta (because doing that with a slow expensive capital ship is pure fucking genius right?), then after the phoenix buff they went OH SHIT WTF DO WE DO WITH IT NOW and they just kinda put together...something. Not sure what. I hope it gets reworked.
I do like the Mothership Core though, it sounds pretty interesting.
One thing i would like to touch on is that i still feel like Zerg has a bit of infestor/broodlord syndrome which isn't really addressed in Hots, and stuff like archon toilets or HSM is more of a bandaid solution than an actual design fix. We will see.
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United States17423 Posts
On September 08 2012 17:19 Teoita wrote:
Yeah i kinda agree on it, but Warhounds are absolutely fucking disgusting. TvT in hots is just sad, even worse than current lategame pvp because at least then you kinda have to spread your shit to not get aoe'd...tvt is just amove the biggest warhound ball you can possibly get. I don't see how the design of that unit can be salvaged in any way shape or form, and i feel like a slight rework of the Thor (make it smaller and weaker or something like that) would have been so much better to get a Goliath-like unit.
The oracle right now is a piece of shit because it's so boring and mono dimensional, but if it got an ability like cloaking, stasis or maelstrom it might turn out ok.
With the thempest i just feel like Blizzard has no idea wtf they are doing. They wanted it to counter mass muta (because doing that with a slow expensive capital ship is pure fucking genius right?), then after the phoenix buff they went OH SHIT WTF DO WE DO WITH IT NOW and they just kinda put together...something. Not sure what. I hope it gets reworked.
I do like the Mothership Core though, it sounds pretty interesting.
One thing i would like to touch on is that i still feel like Zerg has a bit of infestor/broodlord syndrome which isn't really addressed in Hots, and stuff like archon toilets or HSM is more of a bandaid solution than an actual design fix. We will see.
Ya like I said other then warhounds I do like the new terran units. that warhound is just so uninterseting like the toss ones.
But I do wonder what blizzard is going to do with protoss. It's pretty clear their new units are kind of crap and I just don't see how they can possibly make them interesting and not crap. I mean tempest I don't think is a bad unit, but it's just stupid. I mean I would be very surprised if blizzard considered removing and then adding a new unit for toss, but I don't see that happening. They say they will but I don't think they will.
Either way i'm kind of interested what blizzard is going to do about tosses new units as dunno I just don't see them ever being very useful (I keep forgetting mothershipcore is a new unit lol!).
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Italy12246 Posts
Making a BW-like carrier (micro mechanics, tweak cost and build time) or a Tempest like the one in the WoL alpha (or was it beta?) would be nice. That, or make the Tempest shoot Scarabs or something. What do you think of the Oracle with an extra spell like i suggested?
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United States17423 Posts
On September 08 2012 17:46 Teoita wrote:
Making a BW-like carrier (micro mechanics, tweak cost and build time) or a Tempest like the one in the WoL alpha (or was it beta?) would be nice. That, or make the Tempest shoot Scarabs or something. What do you think of the Oracle with an extra spell like i suggested?
Hm i'm not sure. I dunno I didn't like the cloacking originally when it was originally like that, maelstrom or stasis might be good but then you have to see how fast you can get it and i'm not sure if that would make it to strong or what. Idk how they can make the oracle interesting and yeah I think toss is pretty much going to have to be the same (for the most part) in hots unless blizzard does something which I doubt they will do.
I do think tempests will probably be used in late game, especially vs zergs who go bl/corr/infestor just because 22 range (as far as I know it's still that range) is very effective vs that composition and as long as you have stalker/mothership/archon support will make the tempests good in that type of situation imo, but I haven't seen any zergs go that corr/inf/bl composition because new units are fun and turtling to hive - getting those units is boring ^^.
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Right now the only stuff i have seen work for protoss is 2 base all ins or turtling to tempests and hoping the opponent doesn't make anti air. Its just so frustarting that toss has to play nothing but all ins or tutrtle to death ball. I do like what zerg got, and mech being better is nice. (But f warhounds)
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You know, I also have been watching quite a bit, various races and whatnot, and I will say that overall I agree. I think there are some definite balance issues with a few units, but overall the style of gameplay is heightened and I have seen greater and greater multitasking going on. I think that some of the dynamics they have added in are quite interesting and I think that it will take a long time before we see someone truly great at HotS, but I believe they are absolutely heading in the right direction.
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EPT
