Hello TL.net! You guys are always generous when I post my work here. I held off on posting the incomplete version of this as I wanted it to be heard in full.
This is my third piece in the series I have been working on; Spire, Heartflux, and Stargaze. Stargaze marks a point in my compositional career where I have began to explore more experimental harmonic language, most notably in this piece; lydian augmented triads, from melodic minor harmony, nonfunctional dominant 9th/11s, and things like tritone substitution.
The piece's structure was originally intended to be a compound ternary form. So an ABA, with each part broken down into it's own ABA, so..
ABACDCABA. Each large change marked by a shift in the tonal center. Instead, I really followed my ear and taste on this piece and deviated from my original conception, this piece has a very rough ternary outline; ABCDEDABCA'.
Other fun things; first three minutes are in 13/8, subdivided as 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3. The acoustic chords during the beginning of the large B section, or D, if you go with the plan I labeled above, are split into two different chord shapes and voicings, an octave apart. I have a high and low voicing double tracked, panned hard L/R, took awhile! The progression is; Bbm: i9 - VI7 - iv7 - v7 - i9 - VI9 - N(bII) - V7 - i9 - III+(C#aug) - iv7 - v - i9.
Please let me know what you think of the mix/master/musical content. and if you have ANY questions about ANY sounds or techniques, please don't hesitate to ask!
ok, so here are my thoughts based on a single hearing. I really like overall some of the sounds and techiques you are using to create rhythmic structure or excitement, and I feel that there is a lot of differentiation in voices that lends well to discerning each one in a clear manner. However this also illuminates a couple of problems or contentious areas.
First I felt that the whole piece lacked a mid range, and that especially past the 8K range things just popped way to much. This is especially apparent when listening to it at a low volume. Secondly I felt that the bass was rather lacking in the beginning but after hearing the piece I think the blame lies more with the overabundance of highs throughout. Overall there seems to be an unevenness in the sound space and just seems a little too weighted to the high range.
Another, and this is a common issue, I really think you need to pair down your eclecticism. I like that you are all over the place in that you can and do explore a lot of sound areas, but this works against you in that thematically we have less to grasp due to there being so many unique stimuli to process. Mostly this is poor when talking about form as the mash of voices really confuses the structure of the sections. It is quite clear that you're looking for an ABA form with a small transitional portion between A and B but I felt that there may have been just too much going on, which brings me to a sister point.
With all of the stuff you have going on, you really could have made 2-3 pieces with the materials you used. For example I loved the idea of trying to have repetitions of 13, but you kind of do some of it, go on to something else, and then just plainly return. The idea isn't developed much beyond that and feels like a stodgy ABA form rather than an organically flowing work. Along with the fist two minutes, I liked the assymmetric pattern but felt that it didn't go far enough. It really felt like you wanted to have a far stronger assymetry between the pattern of 13 and the percussive element. What I mean by this is that the percussion was in line with the assymetric meter, and it felts like the piece wanted to buck that trend. It does unfold a little as you go, but I couldn't help but feel that this opening 1-2min was a little awkward. I honestly think you could have just paired down the whole piece to just this central theme which would have been quite interesting exploring the interplay of each central element with each other.
The return to the A material seemed rather dull. It really just felt like A and not a modified A'. It's very common to see ABA forms where the recap is modified to retain interest, and it usually works pretty well but here it just seemed plainly restated. Just didn't make me go hmmm (in the good way).
Overall I feel that you focus in too much into the details of each sound, which ends up with some great sounds, but form takes a back seat to this, and it's aurally apparent. Also, keep in mind these are my personal thoughts on what I heard, I'm not advocating that you absolutely adhere to this train of thought, but I do hope that it illuminates other ways to approach or focus your composition or synthesis techniques, or helps elucidate some of what might feel odd or works really well.
On September 02 2012 06:08 wo1fwood wrote: ok, so here are my thoughts based on a single hearing. I really like overall some of the sounds and techiques you are using to create rhythmic structure or excitement, and I feel that there is a lot of differentiation in voices that lends well to discerning each one in a clear manner. However this also illuminates a couple of problems or contentious areas.
First I felt that the whole piece lacked a mid range, and that especially past the 8K range things just popped way to much. This is especially apparent when listening to it at a low volume. Secondly I felt that the bass was rather lacking in the beginning but after hearing the piece I think the blame lies more with the overabundance of highs throughout. Overall there seems to be an unevenness in the sound space and just seems a little too weighted to the high range.
Another, and this is a common issue, I really think you need to pair down your eclecticism. I like that you are all over the place in that you can and do explore a lot of sound areas, but this works against you in that thematically we have less to grasp due to there being so many unique stimuli to process. Mostly this is poor when talking about form as the mash of voices really confuses the structure of the sections. It is quite clear that you're looking for an ABA form with a small transitional portion between A and B but I felt that there may have been just too much going on, which brings me to a sister point.
With all of the stuff you have going on, you really could have made 2-3 pieces with the materials you used. For example I loved the idea of trying to have repetitions of 13, but you kind of do some of it, go on to something else, and then just plainly return. The idea isn't developed much beyond that and feels like a stodgy ABA form rather than an organically flowing work. Along with the fist two minutes, I liked the assymmetric pattern but felt that it didn't go far enough. It really felt like you wanted to have a far stronger assymetry between the pattern of 13 and the percussive element. What I mean by this is that the percussion was in line with the assymetric meter, and it felts like the piece wanted to buck that trend. It does unfold a little as you go, but I couldn't help but feel that this opening 1-2min was a little awkward. I honestly think you could have just paired down the whole piece to just this central theme which would have been quite interesting exploring the interplay of each central element with each other.
The return to the A material seemed rather dull. It really just felt like A and not a modified A'. It's very common to see ABA forms where the recap is modified to retain interest, and it usually works pretty well but here it just seemed plainly restated. Just didn't make me go hmmm (in the good way).
Overall I feel that you focus in too much into the details of each sound, which ends up with some great sounds, but form takes a back seat to this, and it's aurally apparent. Also, keep in mind these are my personal thoughts on what I heard, I'm not advocating that you absolutely adhere to this train of thought, but I do hope that it illuminates other ways to approach or focus your composition or synthesis techniques, or helps elucidate some of what might feel odd or works really well.
You have a really interesting palette here.
Awesome! First off, thanks a TON for the feedback. It's always nice hearing other peoples thoughts and criticisms. Interesting, if I may, what does your listening apparatus look like? On all the references I've checked it almost feels like there is too much bass. I will look into the highs, I do feel at some areas they are a bit bright and outstanding.
Here is where I am going to disagree with you, not that I don't think you are right in saying my music is all over the place, but that's sort of the point of what I was trying to do with this piece. This piece is ended up becoming a bit of an organized through composed piece. Truthfully, I just don't feel like curbing what I want to create to fit an arbitrary form was what I needed to do. I do a lot of composition on paper as well, and have had to study all different forms, binary, rounded binary, sonata, etc, and can apply my composition to a form if necessary. I just wanted this to be free and amorphous.
I'm going to come back and respond but I need to get off my CPU for a bit.
Whoa...I don't have the confidence to comment/criticize, but all I can just say that I really really enjoyed where you went with this. Really good soothing, ambient-style dreamy music
So you think you might make Stargaze or Heartflux available for download? I love all three :D
I actually have a professional audio setup (Mackie monitors, Tannoy sub), and a pair of DT880's from Beyerdynamic. It sounds like you do this already a little, but its really important to monitor your mix under all settings (loud, quiet, headphones, commercial speakers, etc) so you know how your piece will come out exactly. I would agree that in the beginning I felt that the bass seemed too much, but I just checked with my monitors too and it seems fine, but the highs are just a little too overpowering, especially with the percussive elements.
Regarding formal structure, I almost exclusively compose on paper and its very important to pair down what elements your working with so that form happens as a result of manipulating gestures, melodic cells, or the like. That doesn't mean that you have to adhere to a form or choose one arbitrarily. I rarely ever think of a predetermined form that I want when I write, form from my works just happens out of the musical decisions I make both in temporal decisions and how I manipulate cell structures or rhythmic motives. If that happens to be binary in the end then ok, but I never try to force a form onto a work as I found for me at least, it would result in wonky decision making. So with this idea I am separating form from musical elements or cells, does that help clarify it?
On September 02 2012 06:47 Aerisky wrote: Whoa...I don't have the confidence to comment/criticize, but all I can just say that I really really enjoyed where you went with this. Really good soothing, ambient-style dreamy music
So you think you might make Stargaze or Heartflux available for download? I love all three :D
Thanks a ton, I am glad you enjoyed my work! Yes, I will be making them available for download sometime. Additionally, I'll be releasing a free album of this music sometime in the future. These 3 pieces will be on it, as well as an instrumental piece.
On September 02 2012 06:56 wo1fwood wrote: I actually have a professional audio setup (Mackie monitors, Tannoy sub), and a pair of DT880's from Beyerdynamic. It sounds like you do this already a little, but its really important to monitor your mix under all settings (loud, quiet, headphones, commercial speakers, etc) so you know how your piece will come out exactly. I would agree that in the beginning I felt that the bass seemed too much, but I just checked with my monitors too and it seems fine, but the highs are just a little too overpowering, especially with the percussive elements.
Regarding formal structure, I almost exclusively compose on paper and its very important to pair down what elements your working with so that form happens as a result of manipulating gestures, melodic cells, or the like. That doesn't mean that you have to adhere to a form or choose one arbitrarily. I rarely ever think of a predetermined form that I want when I write, form from my works just happens out of the musical decisions I make both in temporal decisions and how I manipulate cell structures or rhythmic motives. If that happens to be binary in the end then ok, but I never try to force a form onto a work as I found for me at least, it would result in wonky decision making. So with this idea I am separating form from musical elements or cells, does that help clarify it?
As do I. I mix between Beyerdynamic DT770 pros, KRK Rokits, and additionally I check my mix in cars/small speakers/shitty headphones, just to get a feel for the overall output on all sound systems. I know to do all of this.
Again, I wrote all of this on paper before programming and producing the sounds. What you are doing is actually kind of what I am trying to move away from. You mentioned thinking of melodic parts as cells, I am trying to not do that. I want to view my melodic content as an amorphous texture that blends together. I don't want people to focus on individual parts, I want the focal point to be on the whole combination of things happening. I purposefully didn't right clear, out-in-front, melodic lines because instead, I opted for writing many small simultaneous co-melodies that form a bigger melody together. Themes don't often come back in this piece on a large melodic scale, but on a small scale, each individual counter melody is undergoing it's own melodic development and repetition. And before what you mentioned about the A vs A', exact repetition thing, I chose to bring back the same large scale melodic pieces, but they aren't exact repetitions, perhaps another listen would yield that there are differences in harmony and they develop differently. Additionally, the whole texture in general changes below the repetition of the large scale melodic pieces that get repeated. The melody may stay the same, but the harmony and timbre combinations change.
Again, thanks for the feedback, so glad you took the time to write your thoughts on my piece!
aahhhh, I dunno how much new music you are familiar with, but with amorphous or perhaps large multi-layered 'wall of sound' music you might want to check out the music of Harrison Burtwistle for some ideas on how to approach that technique, assuming you aren't familiar with him already. Even some Ives or spectral composers like Saariaho or Murail could be helpful in getting some ideas around formal structure or the like.
That transition irks me to no end. What I get is (to use symbols since my ear is a bit rusty)
- _ ¯ [Break]
What I want to hear is
- _ ¯ ¯ ¯[Break] . . . .diminuendo
The one thing that this song is missing is silence. You've got the slow parts, the breakdowns, everything and it works together really well and I love it. But there's no silence, and to me, it screams out for it. Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
Sounds great mate, I'll check out more of your stuff later.
On September 02 2012 08:53 wo1fwood wrote: aahhhh, I dunno how much new music you are familiar with, but with amorphous or perhaps large multi-layered 'wall of sound' music you might want to check out the music of Harrison Burtwistle for some ideas on how to approach that technique, assuming you aren't familiar with him already. Even some Ives or spectral composers like Saariaho or Murail could be helpful in getting some ideas around formal structure or the like.
Awesome, thanks for the suggestions. I will definitely check out those composers work. Also, do you have any of your work somewhere I could hear it? Definitely interested! Thanks again, my friend.
On September 02 2012 15:23 iGrok wrote: I love it, except for one transition. 4:11.
That transition irks me to no end. What I get is (to use symbols since my ear is a bit rusty)
- _ ¯ [Break]
What I want to hear is
- _ ¯ ¯ ¯[Break] . . . .diminuendo
The one thing that this song is missing is silence. You've got the slow parts, the breakdowns, everything and it works together really well and I love it. But there's no silence, and to me, it screams out for it. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1XmFmJOSU0
Sounds great mate, I'll check out more of your stuff later.
Not gonna lie, this was some great feedback. You have definitely made me reevaluate somethings. I respect the power that silence has on a work, and I agree, I need to utilize it more. In my next piece I will explore that more. Thanks, let me know what you think about the rest of my work when you check it out!
On September 02 2012 16:49 Shady Sands wrote: Awesome job man. You thinking about getting repped by a label? I know some people
Thanks a ton. I would like to find a label, but it's hard to market electronic music that is as outlandish as this is. I would love to start chatting with labels though. Maybe you could help out? haha. thanks again, man!
Wow this was actually really really good. As a big fan of ambient / chillout this definitely touched me in all the right places. Can't really offer much in the way of criticism although I do agree that experimenting more with silence has the potential to make this piece even better. Other than that I can only thank you for sharing this sick composition and let you know I'll definitely check out that album you plan on releasing.
On September 03 2012 04:47 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Wow this was actually really really good. As a big fan of ambient / chillout this definitely touched me in all the right places. Can't really offer much in the way of criticism although I do agree that experimenting more with silence has the potential to make this piece even better. Other than that I can only thank you for sharing this sick composition and let you know I'll definitely check out that album you plan on releasing.
Great job. Hwaiting~~
Awesome man, glad you truly enjoyed my work! I'll throw the album your way when I release it!
EPT
