EPTIn Defence of Mech - Page 15
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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DreadKnight
United Kingdom123 Posts
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AlexanderS
Norway36 Posts
But thats just me. Wich is why there are different races. Theres something for everybody but everythings not for everybody. IMO all mirror matchups should be as different as can be, really. ZvZ is fast, TvT should be slow. And PvP is somehow both. :p There are thing bout BW thats plain better than WOL. And vice versa. But this notion of "dumbing" down mech play has to be wrong. Terran could be beautifully ballanced. Bio is the easy to perform, but slightly weaker alternative, to the harder to perform but slightly more powerfull mech style. We clearly have to wait to see how the beta plays out. But now it really looks like the Warhound is just a duller Marauder built from the factory... | ||
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Vanimar
220 Posts
On August 17 2012 18:42 AlexanderS wrote: Im a _huge_ fan of Siege Tank chess. After reading this I had an epiphany. I just realized why I was playing Terran in BW and went for random in Sc2. It's just all the same now. Sure there are differences still, but none as majorly entertaining as said siege chess. I just realized of how much Starcraft experience I jave been robbed since sc2. Makes me a sad panda  My greatest hope for Lotv ( I don't think hots will get anywhere near that) is that they bring siege chess back. Because it's the last addon and it is the one that will determine the longevity of the game. And, as obviously stated by MANY posters as well as the OP, siege chess (I like that expression) is one of the reasons many people loved bw. So, if anyone knows someone at Blizzard, please tell them :/ | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On August 17 2012 12:25 Streltsy wrote: 5/5, But I have to ask, what is the point of articles like these? It's not as if Blizzard has ever listened to other well reasoned articles SC2 articles before. And let's not kid ourselves, Blizzard isn't going to give us 25mineral mines (x3 per 75min vulture) that do 125 damage or anything even remotely similar. It's also not going to give us 70 damage tanks and bring back high ground advantage. Apart those type of changes being extremely hard to balance (likely a large part of the reason why all units/abilities were toned down in SC2), they also go against Blizzard's design philosophy a lot of the time. Truth is they don't actually want to see mech play, because they think it's boring and frustrating to play against (they see mech as akin to campers in fps); or why do you else do you think WoL launched with units like the marauder and immortal? While I loathe all these kids who never played BW coming here to talk about "bias" like the silly-geese that they are, they do make one excellent point: if you don't enjoy SC2, just stop playing it. If you do enjoy it (but preferred BW) then you're just going to have to get over the shadow of BW because SC2 will never be BW. "That's just the way it is..." I did play bw, even though not in a competitive way, but it is pretty obvious how the OP keeps dissing on Blizzard and SC2, to the point where it is not cause he wants to say the truth, but he just wants to whine about it. If you want I can give you examples I saw while I read the article, I would really not mind his view of things if it wasn't so subjective, cause everyone can say "I think this is better", but it is hard to put down an idea without pouring your own personal feelings. | ||
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TUski
United States1258 Posts
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Falling
Canada11328 Posts
On August 17 2012 12:25 Streltsy wrote: While I loathe all these kids who never played BW coming here to talk about "bias" like the silly-geese that they are, they do make one excellent point: if you don't enjoy SC2, just stop playing it. If you do enjoy it (but preferred BW) then you're just going to have to get over the shadow of BW because SC2 will never be BW. "That's just the way it is..." Well that's just it isn't it? I have stopped playing. For quite awhile now. And so has everyone single person I ever recruited to SC2. I'm a relapsed SC2 evangelist. But we still play BW on occasion or else have moved on to MOBA games (there's no alternative modern RTS that's captures our interest). But I'd rather not go quitely into the night before at least trying to identify some of things that would create more interest. Because if Blizzard can't get it right, I'm not really sure who can. Unless this guy starts becoming lead project designer for another RTS (he led WC, WCII, and Starcraft.) http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/ | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
On topic though, I know that a lot of current top players are losing interest in SC2 or have given up hope on it ever changing. I am worried that if HotS does not deliver, SC2 may come to a halt in terms of progress. I pray that Blizzard will listen VERY carefully to every tiny bit of feedback given by the pro players and make sure they actually adjust properly. If not, the only hope we have is some bright minds coming together with some pro players and creating a Mod that alters certain things like adding in moving shot and such, so that it can easily be implemented in multiple maps, and go from there. Please Blizzard, remember your old ways, and make sure that SC2 becomes the best game it can be, as opposed to good enough but not quite where it can and should be. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 18 2012 03:00 Masayume wrote: Thank you for posting that blog link Falling, as a Blizzard veteran that started with WarCraft: orcs & Humans, it's mega interesting to read about the design process. On topic though, I know that a lot of current top players are losing interest in SC2 or have given up hope on it ever changing. I am worried that if HotS does not deliver, SC2 may come to a halt in terms of progress. I pray that Blizzard will listen VERY carefully to every tiny bit of feedback given by the pro players and make sure they actually adjust properly. If not, the only hope we have is some bright minds coming together with some pro players and creating a Mod that alters certain things like adding in moving shot and such, so that it can easily be implemented in multiple maps, and go from there. Please Blizzard, remember your old ways, and make sure that SC2 becomes the best game it can be, as opposed to good enough but not quite where it can and should be. I think people are pretty hard on Blizzard. They provided a video game which we all have been playing for two years straight. There is no other games out there that I have played for that long or put in as many hours. I have scaled it back a bit, but mostly due to personal reasons, rather than because I am tired of SC2. HotS appears to have a lot to offer and is opening up each of the races. Regardless if people agree with some of the units, I am glad Blizzard if focusing on the tech trees that people do not use. Stargate and factory both under used in WoL and adding in more harassment abilities. Making the hellion be able to turn into a core unit that can withstand a frontal assault much like pikemen, was one of the smarter moves. Many people have underplayed how awesome it will be to have a harassing unit that can also serve as a front line fighter. People are seem to really want tanks to be awesome and the answer to many problems. The thing about tanks in WoL is that they are "almost awesome". There are pretty much two melee units that give them a hard time, which HotS seems to be addressing. I will be suprised if tanks to not bring the fear in HotS. Plus with more tanks, Bhellions and other mech, I can build more phoenixes to lift them up. I think we all can agree that zealot, immortal, phoenix is the most awesome of all compositions. | ||
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gesgi
United States36 Posts
Another aspect of siege tanks, mech play and siege tactics in general worth highlighting is that it forces the opponent to act. A group of siege tanks within cannon range of a nexus at natural will force the protoss to abandon whatever immediate plans he or she had in mind and tackle the tank problem, either by attempting to destroy the tanks or sacking the nexus and countering. The HL mod Natural Selection had a similar mechanic with its siege guns: the frontiersmen involved in setting up the siege were effectively bound up in sustaining the siege, leaving the base largely unattended and open to an alien counter attack at the price of a hive. Or the aliens could try to lift the siege by killing the frontiersmen and destroying the guns. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:07 Falling wrote: Well that's just it isn't it? I have stopped playing. For quite awhile now. And so has everyone single person I ever recruited to SC2. I'm a relapsed SC2 evangelist. But we still play BW on occaisan or else have moved on to MOBA games (there's no alternative modern RTS that's captures our interest). But I'd rather not go quitely into the night before at least trying to identify some of things that would create more interest. Because if Blizzard can't get it right, I'm not really sure who can. Unless this guy starts becoming lead project designer for another RTS (he led WC, WCII, and Starcraft.) http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/ OMG i was looking for the person who led SC1!!! i couldn't find it on wiki or anything... didn't know (but should have suspected) it was the same guy as wc1 and wc2 dammit, why didn't they have him do sc2? ;; after researching, he left after working for blizz about 8 years? ;; | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On August 17 2012 18:42 AlexanderS wrote: Im a _huge_ fan of Siege Tank chess. The "cold war" style of slowly positioning and building up your army in TvT gets this nerds heart pounding like nothing else. To be its the pinnacle of SC. And anything that can or will degrade this type of gameplay sadens me. But thats just me. Wich is why there are different races. Theres something for everybody but everythings not for everybody. IMO all mirror matchups should be as different as can be, really. ZvZ is fast, TvT should be slow. And PvP is somehow both. :p There are thing bout BW thats plain better than WOL. And vice versa. But this notion of "dumbing" down mech play has to be wrong. Terran could be beautifully ballanced. Bio is the easy to perform, but slightly weaker alternative, to the harder to perform but slightly more powerfull mech style. We clearly have to wait to see how the beta plays out. But now it really looks like the Warhound is just a duller Marauder built from the factory... I really miss TvT in BW. Shit would always make my heart pound. Very stressful. SC2 not so much. It's so easy to break tank lines with pure marine. Bio TvT with a ton of medivacs is greater then any tank play in SC2. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5244 Posts
On August 18 2012 03:44 Plansix wrote: I think people are pretty hard on Blizzard. They provided a video game which we all have been playing for two years straight. There is no other games out there that I have played for that long or put in as many hours. I have scaled it back a bit, but mostly due to personal reasons, rather than because I am tired of SC2. I wish there were solid statistics on the amount of player retention these days; I remember someone had graphs back in the day that documented player loss, but they were fairly standard. The thing is, for a lot of the people complaining about SC2, we have stopped playing the game for ages because we just don't find it that fun to play a lot. I randomly go on to 1v1 my friends (all of which have quit except for a select few) but this is very rarely. I played WC3 for 5 years. I played Dota for 4, and am now playing Dota 2 until god knows when. SC2 just doesn't have the spark that previous games have had for me. I don't feel anything pulling me to play the game when I know if I ladder, I'm just going to be doing the same boring (to me, at least) things over and over. I wish blizard could make games as great as they have, but seeing/playing with the warhound (I actually used them in HotS @MLG), it just seems like more of the same blah gameplay =/ Watching pros do magic with amazing skills is still fun to watch, but actually playing the game just has no appeal to me anymore. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
On August 17 2012 12:25 Streltsy wrote: 5/5, But I have to ask, what is the point of articles like these? It's not as if Blizzard has ever listened to other well reasoned articles SC2 articles before. And let's not kid ourselves, Blizzard isn't going to give us 25mineral mines (x3 per 75min vulture) that do 125 damage or anything even remotely similar. It's also not going to give us 70 damage tanks and bring back high ground advantage. Apart those type of changes being extremely hard to balance (likely a large part of the reason why all units/abilities were toned down in SC2), they also go against Blizzard's design philosophy a lot of the time. Truth is they don't actually want to see mech play, because they think it's boring and frustrating to play against (they see mech as akin to campers in fps); or why do you else do you think WoL launched with units like the marauder and immortal? While I loathe all these kids who never played BW coming here to talk about "bias" like the silly-geese that they are, they do make one excellent point: if you don't enjoy SC2, just stop playing it. If you do enjoy it (but preferred BW) then you're just going to have to get over the shadow of BW because SC2 will never be BW. "That's just the way it is..." People that loathe SC2 would not take the time to make a detailed post explaining the finer intricacies of siege tank play, nor take the time to criticize the design of HotS. I am glad that there are people willing to put down solid arguments (read: not going "X, Y, Z is imbalanced") for why certain units are bland and why simply making units from a factory does not make it a "playstyle". OP may be biased, but imo, it's better to be biased and write about it, then to be unbiased and contribute nothing to discussion. SC2 has units like the marauder and the immortal, because Blizzard thinks units with hard counters are good and possibly/add variety. I would say that is what makes SC2 less exciting to watch than BW. It takes no skill to make a unit to fight another unit, but it takes skill to load up a shuttle and zealot bomb tanks. And if you read the OP, Mech is anything but "campy". Mech requires a lot of micro, and perfect positioning. Not to mention, you have to harass efficiently and keep the enemy economy low. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:07 Falling wrote: Well that's just it isn't it? I have stopped playing. For quite awhile now. And so has everyone single person I ever recruited to SC2. I'm a relapsed SC2 evangelist. But we still play BW on occasion or else have moved on to MOBA games (there's no alternative modern RTS that's captures our interest). But I'd rather not go quitely into the night before at least trying to identify some of things that would create more interest. Because if Blizzard can't get it right, I'm not really sure who can. Unless this guy starts becoming lead project designer for another RTS (he led WC, WCII, and Starcraft.) http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/ Apologies if I've misunderstood or read too much into this, but isn't a little short-sighted to lose interest in SC2 entirely if (in theory) Terran mech can't be used in high-level play? That seems to suggest implicitly that Zerg and Protoss do not have anything of value to really offer SC2, which seems unfair. It also suggests that Terran mech was the most interesting part of BW, which again seems unfair to Zerg and Protoss. I'm also a little surprised to see people feeling nostalgic about TvT, which, when I was just a lurker on this site, seemed to me to be fairly frequently lambasted as a painfully long and slow matchup. Having said that, though, I did really like TvT in BW, and I certainly understand why people miss those tense trench warfare style tank pushes. | ||
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Streltsy
Canada98 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:07 Falling wrote: Well that's just it isn't it? I have stopped playing. For quite awhile now. And so has everyone single person I ever recruited to SC2. I'm a relapsed SC2 evangelist. But we still play BW on occasion or else have moved on to MOBA games (there's no alternative modern RTS that's captures our interest). But I'd rather not go quitely into the night before at least trying to identify some of things that would create more interest. Because if Blizzard can't get it right, I'm not really sure who can. Unless this guy starts becoming lead project designer for another RTS (he led WC, WCII, and Starcraft.) http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/ Same story here, moved on to DotA 2 but still occasionally follow big SC2 tournaments + visit TL for non-SC related features. I guess I'm just bitter because every time I see these articles which explain parts of what made BW special in cogent and clear ways, I know that they will likely fall on deaf ears. I don't believe Blizzard will implement the described features for reasons I already stated (too hard to balance and often goes against, what I believe, is their design philosophy). For potential future RTS games? Well, RTS games are far and few in-between, and they usually try to carve out their own niche (ex. Relic with squad based RTS, Supreme Commander with larger scale battles, Anno with city-building). Not to mention that it's less likely those developers will read this than even Blizzard reading it (already a slim chance of that), since BW community was always pretty insular (now with SC2, dead for the most part in addition). But, I hope you don't take offence, I did enjoy the article. It's just that it reminded me of something that won't ever be again. -- + Show Spoiler + On August 18 2012 19:31 Nazza wrote: People that loathe SC2 would not take the time to make a detailed post explaining the finer intricacies of siege tank play, nor take the time to criticize the design of HotS. I am glad that there are people willing to put down solid arguments (read: not going "X, Y, Z is imbalanced") for why certain units are bland and why simply making units from a factory does not make it a "playstyle". OP may be biased, but imo, it's better to be biased and write about it, then to be unbiased and contribute nothing to discussion. SC2 has units like the marauder and the immortal, because Blizzard thinks units with hard counters are good and possibly/add variety. I would say that is what makes SC2 less exciting to watch than BW. It takes no skill to make a unit to fight another unit, but it takes skill to load up a shuttle and zealot bomb tanks. And if you read the OP, Mech is anything but "campy". Mech requires a lot of micro, and perfect positioning. Not to mention, you have to harass efficiently and keep the enemy economy low. Read my post and reply TO it, don't just write what you wanted to while quoting me. I never said OP was biased (I said this is what SC2 detractors say in these types of threads), I also never said mech being campy was bad or that hard unit counters are good (but that I believe Blizzard thinks these things are bad and good respectively). Real BW mech (especially in TvP) was hands down my absolute favourite match up to watch. | ||
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Gben592
United Kingdom281 Posts
On August 18 2012 03:44 Plansix wrote: I think people are pretty hard on Blizzard. They provided a video game which we all have been playing for two years straight. There is no other games out there that I have played for that long or put in as many hours. I have scaled it back a bit, but mostly due to personal reasons, rather than because I am tired of SC2. Agreed, although there are many ways for SC2 to improve... I would argue it is still the best "modern" RTS game around... All it really needs is some awesome competition, because at the moment there really isn't any! | ||
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pyrostat
Korea (South)70 Posts
IN game tourneys/ organization for each league, etc... | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
TvT is easily my favorite match up. | ||
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Falling
Canada11328 Posts
No. No mech is a just one example of what I eventually found unfun about SC2. I don't even play Terran in BW or SC2 (unless I'm off-racing.) But as a Protoss player, it was absolutely fun to play against mech. Terran may complain that Protoss was 1a2a3a, but competent Terran mech is hard to counter. So it's a fascinating puzzle to solve. It was also amazing to watch. Arguably one of the best match-ups to watch. As it stands, I grew to dislike my own race for a variety of reasons that are irrelevant to this thread. As for people disliking TvT trenchwarfare. The context of that was comparing only BW match-ups. And if you were to rank favourites the non-mirror match-ups were the clear favourites. TvT can take a long time, so some people didn't like those and ZvZ was super short and highly micro intensive so some people didn't like those. I personally found them all fascinating. But if mech is interesting in TvP and you want to get that, then you also need to get mech play working in TvT. But if you look at Fantasy's harass style in TvT, I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that don't find that interesting. And if your comparing positional chess play of mech play to roaming deathballs, I think mech play will be the favourite. | ||
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