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Active: 13761 users

HOTS Thoughts/Swarm Host

Blogs > Qwyn
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Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 11:45:10
July 05 2012 10:25 GMT
#1
So after reading and having seen a lot about the current state of the HOTS alpha and having time to formulate opinions on what I've seen of Blizzard's design philosophy, I decided to write a blog post detailing my thoughts on the changes planned, as well as how I’D do things.

First, I want to talk about what I feel (and apparently Blizzard) to be a core issue with SCII. And that is the deathball mechanic. There is currently a thread which addresses the deathball and the negative consequences it has on gameplay, leading to the 1A mentality and the like. I feel that the deathball arises from the lack of space controlling units

EDIT: I wrote this two days before the whole movement/pathing discussion movement showed up again, and also think suggested changes in that dept. are crucial to improving SCII.

What do I mean by space controlling units? I dunno, many things. I would argue that the HT is not a space controlling unit, for the simple reason that it cannot apply sustained damage. But what it does apply is a large amount of AOE, something most argue that space controlling units should have.

Now one of the most agreed on culprits for the deathball mechanic today is SCII’s pathing engine (seeing as all the threads about it are popping up). I do agree, but instead of focusing on that I’d like to address Blizzard’s current plans for HOTS and how they factor into negating the deathball (as well as how I’d do things, damnit). I’ll probably do one for post, two where there is space, as my current thoughts are around 6500 words total, lol.


ZERG SWARM HOST:

Now when this unit was initially announced I felt quite excited about it and the potential it held. Having seen it in action at Anaheim and reading others’ opinions about it, I’m not really satisfied in the direction that Blizzard is heading.

Let’s look at the core idea behind the swarm host: the ability to apply sustainable, long term pressure that occurs in waves, eventually forcing an engagement from the opposing player. The host attempts to do this through locusts. At the moment they seem to be high powered range units that have the damage of a hydra and double the health of a ling. On paper, they sound good. But b/c of their status as a hybrid unit, low quantity, overlap, and timed life they don’t really cut it. Also consider that hosts must be massed in order to have any considerable effect on gameplay, sacrificing supply that you might use for direct damage units.

Now, as for potential uses for the host, I don’t see them used very much for harassment. Why? Not enough DPS/Too costly. Also consider that hosts do not elicit the same kind of reaction from a terran player that mutalisks do. They cannot bypass terrain like a flying unit can. Their damage output is too low to cause the distress that mutalisks cause. Once you attack with them they are almost immediately nullified. And if you are going to get drop in order to harass with the hosts, then you had better build enough to do damage, which leads to the next issue which I have with this model as it stands now.

Swarm hosts will not be useful in direct army engagements left as they are. Why? Not enough DPS/little effect on opposing forces/too much of commitment/locusts take too long to spawn/eat up concave space.

If you are going to mass swarm hosts, then you are committing a large chunk of you army supply to a unit that is unable to apply direct damage. Locusts do not provide enough DPS as they are to withstand the combined DPS of a Terran/Protoss army, and considering that most units are ranged it seems unlikely that most of the locusts will ever even be able to engage. Coupled with the fact that in the current build they take over 25 in game seconds to spawn without an upgrade, and are spawned only two at a time, they seem underwhelming.

So, here is a suggestion based on what I’ve seen.

Improve the SH spawn rate and quantity dramatically. That’s right, to the point of being overpowered. Maybe if the hosts spawned three locusts at a time with an upgrade for the fourth, they would have more of an effect on gameplay. Also consider decreasing the spawn time. As they are now, the long spawn time creates huge gaps where the hosts are completely vulnerable. By increasing spawn rate and decreasing spawn time dramatically, you have a unit that might be able to apply direct damage. Obviously tone down the damage/health afterwards.

+ Show Spoiler +

Ok I cut this out of the main body b/c I feel like people might read it and just think I'm whining about wanting the lurker back without any reasoning behind it. That's rather frusttrating but I wanted the focus more to be on positional units and how the swarm host works to fill that role. You can read this crap if you want. It was just what I thought might work as a better alternative based on what I think zerg needs atm, nothing more. It doesn't have to be the lurker ffs.

2. Implement the lurker. Quite honestly, I don’t see any other way to solve the deathball problem on the zerg side of things. Let me elaborate. I use the lurker as a model for the type of space controlling unit that I am looking to see implemented. And…the lurker just so happens to be a very successful example of what is needed in order to allow said space control. Perhaps the actual unit implemented can be different – different attack style/delivery, different model/name, different move speed. All those things can change. But what is needed – that the swarm host in its current incarnation does not deliver – is direct, sustainable AOE damage. That is what makes lurkers a staple of BW play – the fact that a small amount of lurkers are able to hold off a disproportionate quantity of enemy forces, while also freeing up supply. All this hinges on the fact that the lurker’s damage output is sustainable.

Here’s an example of how the “lurker” could fit into SCII: It is a tier 2 unit that evolves from the roach. It requires the lair, and an upgrade from the roach warren. It does 20 damage to light and 30 damage to armored units. It requires 3 supply. It has a range of 7. It costs 75/100 to evolve, for a total cost of 150/125. As simple as that.

Implemented like this, the “lurker” would provide an element to zerg gameplay that is sorely lacking in the current game. Why does the “lurker” perform the space control role better than the swarm host? The differences lie in delivery. The “lurker’s” attack is instant, directed from the unit itself from a fixed range. The swarm host’s attack is indirect, and the units that it spawns are not even guaranteed to deliver any damage.


I feel that the swarm host somewhat fails its intended purpose. Because it has wave type sustainability as opposed to delivering direct damage, it is unable to provide successful pressure (extremely large gaps between attacks). Locusts are not guaranteed to make contact with the enemy, let alone do damage, and their slow spawn rate means that pressure fails to elicit any meaningful reaction. Increasing spawn rate might help to make it more viable, but I feel that it is more likely conceptually flawed (also the little fact that it somewhat overlaps the broodlord in design).

Anyhow that’s all I have on that. I’ll do a couple more of these as I format my thoughts a bit more. There’s a lot going through my head with all the discussion on unit movement/collision right now.

Also make sure to check out Barrin's FRB Mod. I think that’s also a step in the right direction that’s been sorely neglected.

Also, I was thinking about making a custom map format that would implement all the changes and suggestions that I have for HOTS. Is that a good idea?

EDIT: So actually I've been thinking about it and I really think that burrowed banes might be able to fill that role in a limited fashion, only issue is that they are 1x use. I guess I'll play around with that.

And I just wanted to highlight one of the bigger issues to me which is that i feel like you max too fast in SCII, is all. There are a lot of different ideas floating around out there that all aim to "slow the gameflow down" and essentially make it more difficult to max, like FRB.

I doubt any of these ideas will actually be implemented in the game, lol, but at least it's out there. Really I think I should say that it's less about the swarm host and more about the role that I feel positional units should play. SH might be a very good positional unit if it can create a wall to control area with spawns, and really I understated the power that it might have with delaying smaller forces. It's just against the power of any sort of deathball that I think they'd be rendered useless, and that a sort of AOE unit would have more applicability.



*
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Aelonius
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands432 Posts
July 05 2012 11:53 GMT
#2
I agree with most of your post.
We could double the spawn rate and quantity, and lower the damage. At that point the units become more like tank units or a swarm defending something. Sure, they die quick but a fast respawn would mean that they have more oomph.

But then it would be a burrowed Broodlord, and Blizzard doesn't want that.
''The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.''—Ronald Reagan
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
July 05 2012 11:58 GMT
#3
On July 05 2012 20:53 Aelonius wrote:
I agree with most of your post.
We could double the spawn rate and quantity, and lower the damage. At that point the units become more like tank units or a swarm defending something. Sure, they die quick but a fast respawn would mean that they have more oomph.

But then it would be a burrowed Broodlord, and Blizzard doesn't want that.


Right but conceptually it overlaps with the BW, I don't think there's much way around that.

However I think in general the locusts are going to die really quickly to any sort of firepower, and they take up a lot of space that's needed by melee/short range damage dealers.

The spawn rate increase idea was just so that:

Units try to walk up ramp - oh shit can't get up there's a wall of units in my way. Made it up the ramp, lost a few marines. Another wall of units - then zerglings appear to mop up.

The SH just won't have any real impact on an engagement beside's taking up supply. Battles just happen way too fast with the current pathing system and the locusts would just evaporate. Which means that you have essentially a bunch of wasted supply.

This is all theoretical, based on what I've seen of it so far - waiting for latest update of HOTS mod!
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
July 05 2012 12:15 GMT
#4
I like the deathball mechanic. The only matchups I suck at is TvT because tanks + bio fuck it all up and TvP (because you can't just try to straight up engage in deathball vs deathball all game in TvP because eventually you'll lose one battle and the game is over.)
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
July 05 2012 12:16 GMT
#5
On July 05 2012 21:15 EnE wrote:
I like the deathball mechanic. The only matchups I suck at is TvT because tanks + bio fuck it all up and TvP (because you can't just try to straight up engage in deathball vs deathball all game in TvP because eventually you'll lose one battle and the game is over.)


Yeah I think that accents the flaws of the current deathball system right now, lol. TvP more than other MUs.

I think the only MU right now where I enjoy big army fights is ZvT pre-broodlords.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
July 05 2012 20:20 GMT
#6
Now, as for potential uses for the host, I don’t see them used very much for harassment. Why? Not enough DPS/Too costly. Also consider that hosts do not elicit the same kind of reaction from a terran player that mutalisks do. They cannot bypass terrain like a flying unit can. Their damage output is too low to cause the distress that mutalisks cause. Once you attack with them they are almost immediately nullified. And if you are going to get drop in order to harass with the hosts, then you had better build enough to do damage, which leads to the next issue which I have with this model as it stands now.

Um swarm hosts aren't supposed to be harassment units.. They're e control units. How often do you see tank harassment

But yeah ontopic: some changes are def needed.. And I'm sure were going to see it once the beta is in our hands and blizz gets back the numbers..
Jaedong.
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
July 05 2012 23:12 GMT
#7
On July 06 2012 05:20 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:
Show nested quote +
Now, as for potential uses for the host, I don’t see them used very much for harassment. Why? Not enough DPS/Too costly. Also consider that hosts do not elicit the same kind of reaction from a terran player that mutalisks do. They cannot bypass terrain like a flying unit can. Their damage output is too low to cause the distress that mutalisks cause. Once you attack with them they are almost immediately nullified. And if you are going to get drop in order to harass with the hosts, then you had better build enough to do damage, which leads to the next issue which I have with this model as it stands now.

Um swarm hosts aren't supposed to be harassment units.. They're e control units. How often do you see tank harassment

But yeah ontopic: some changes are def needed.. And I'm sure were going to see it once the beta is in our hands and blizz gets back the numbers..


They were demo'd as being able to harass. It does make some sort of sense. I just thought that they would be nullified the instant that they attacked forthe most part - unless you did some sort of re-rally to make it look like they came from a different direction.

What they specifically said when they brought out the SH was that it was a "siege" unit, not necessarily a "control" unit. I really think that what zerg needs is a control unit. Can't wait for the beta though.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
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