• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:06
CEST 19:06
KST 02:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation9$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps [G] Progamer Settings [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 656 users

HotS: Following the wrong footsteps.

Blogs > imBLIND
Post a Reply
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
June 23 2012 08:11 GMT
#1
I'm not a game developer, a game designer, or the a CEO of a major game company, but with the direction that Blizzard is taking towards Heart of the Swarm, the game is not going to be worth their money.

I was skeptical about WoL replacing BW as the prime eSports platform, and lo and behold, League of Legends is surpassing SC2 in Korea. Yes, SC2 is not exactly that far behind LoL, especially as BW is coming to a close, but to lose to a simplistic game like LoL?

Ignoring the politics with Activision/Blizzard + Dustin Bowder (thats a whole other blog), the results speak for themselves: SC2 does not appeal to pro and amateur gamers, to people that are completely new to the RTS genre, and to the eSports scene as a whole.

Yes, its got better graphics than most games out there, but they thought that pretty explosions and cool looking things could replace the gameplay.
Yes, its a new game and people have money to throw around for games, but the content is not worth $60. Crap story, crap multiplayer experience, crap design.
Yes, the genre is difficult to advertise, but playing SC2 over and over almost feels worse than grinding in Diablo 3. Thats right. I said it. I would rather farm D3 Act1 inferno than grind on SC2.

Its not easily distributable.
Its not easy to get your friends to all cough up $60 bucks to play it.
Its not fun getting better at the game.

[image loading]

The magic that made BW the game it was is not in SC2.


And what does Blizzard do to fix this? Absolutely nothing. Adding a few more units to the game does not fix the plethora of problems Blizzard has to deal with. Shoving them under the carpet makes this game worse.

We can't control how they market the game or how the game will be marketed by the public, but Blizzard has the power to fix the quality of the game in their hands.

And with all that power, Blizzard designed, distributed, and removed units and abilities that were roughly based off of BW with absolutely no regard for balance whatsoever.

It's their game, and they're free to do whatever they want, but you would think that the development team would use their brains a little more before they seriously decided to give Terrans a tier1 air unit (one that they ended up nerfing into obvilion by the way), created a 1a unit that functioned like a siege tank for Protoss, and gave zerg the ability to have an overwhelming amount of larvae off of 3 bases (a little overexaggerated).

And everytime we manage to get somewhat closer to a balance among the gaming community, Blizzard just decides to nerf and buff units that completely mess with the dynamic of the current trends. They're balancing the game based off of the way the metagame develops rather than the game itself. Yes, its hard to do, but its their fault for insisting on adding units that only sound good on paper than addressing what Terrans, Zergs, and Protosses actually need and what would actually work in a game.

Which brings me to how they're developing HotS.

The only two units that will affect the balance of the game in a positive way are the Oracle and the Widow mine.

Protosses have long had a history of having the weakest form of detection ever. I played a style of TvP in SC2 where I would just snipe the observers and pummel them with cloaked banshees. BW had this problem with Lurker contains as well. The Oracle fixes this problem, gives Protoss a way to effciently scout, a way to harass, and a cloaking field that gives them utilty in battles. Basically, its a 3-in-1 unit that protosses are definiately going to get in every game. It addresses the race's needs perfectly.

The Widow mine is the long lost answer for Terran's cry for some map control and more. WoL Terran has absolutely no useful CC (the Raven's pdd and the marauder's slow are the only two things that keep the army alive for a little longer, and they are both useless in multiple cases), and the widow mine is basically the Terran's trump card in every engagement. Yes. its not a direct form of CC, but it's close enough. It still has to be properly priced and balanced, but the idea is there. This is what will make Terrans win engagments - properly using the Widow mine.

The Viper is a nerfed remake of the Deflier, much like how the widow mine is just a nerfed remake of the spider mine. However, bringing back the deflier abilities does not address how ridiculously unbalanced the zerg gameplay is. Yes, it definitely helps the game out, but as it stands right now, it is going to walk the path of the reaper if blizzard does not change it. It ignores the problems and balance of the zerg synergy in the early game and just amplifies zerg's already ridiculously strong late game.
Zerg can't be this untouchable in the early game and roll over everybody in the late game in HotS like how it is happening right now in WoL, barring cheeses and poor decisions. I'm thinking nerfing the number of queens per hatch to 1 and giving them some slow moving, untargetable ground-dmg scourge that are limited to creep. Just my dumb idea. But blizzard needs to address this issue one way or another before changing Zerg any further.

And this is only 1 new unit and 1 problem with the current game. They're adding an entirely new arsenal of units and spells to a game with multiple problems.

Every other unit and ability that is being introduced is just a piece of imagination from someone's head. They serve no other function than to make the game look "cooler" or to appeal to WoL's current metagame. The mothership core might be the one exception, as it is basically the other half of the arbiter (the other being in the oracle), but other than that, all the units are not helping the game one bit. This is exactly how Blizzard designed WoL, with absolutely no foresight on how each unit will be used, no hindsight of what each race needs, and are thinking that they will balance the game alongside how people play it. If HotS is going to be designed like this as well, SC2 will never take the #1 spot in eSports broadcasting ever again.

Here's to hoping that Blizzard will show us something better in the HotS beta.

tl;dr: Make units and abilities that help balance the game, not units that you think are cool. The mine and the oracle are good ideas. Everything else messes with the balance of the game even more. Stop balancing based off the metagame, and use your head before you make a unit or spell that you reget putting in the game. Address the current issues before you start brainstorming a unit concept.





**
im deaf
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
June 23 2012 08:36 GMT
#2
my biggest gripe is that they add all these things to the game, then they immediately gimp them. Nerfed units makes things less exciting. why not make widow mines detonate immediately? why not make battlecruiser boost cost like 25 energy only? instead of a tempest, why not just give the carrier an upgrade? just crazy stuff like that would make the game more interesting.

cause right now no one i know that played hots at mlg (including me) really seem to care much for it because it was just so blah. we basically had to force ourselves to get the new units and when we got them it was just sorta whatever. the units that have the potential to be remotely interesting are made in such a way so that they are "not powerful" in a non-existent hots balance. And the units that will probably be used (battle hellion, warhound) are incredibly boring and not fun to use.
blabberrrrr
Aelonius
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands432 Posts
June 23 2012 10:39 GMT
#3
I stopped reading after a little bit, when I noticed that you've been attempting to rant and rage about SC2 without actually giving good arguments. You're just parroting a few other people.
''The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.''—Ronald Reagan
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 23 2012 10:48 GMT
#4
I disagree with the majority of your post.

They're balancing the game based off of the way the metagame develops rather than the game itself.

That is very true, however. They're approaching balance in SC2 the same way their WoW team approaches PvP balance...which is that it's a constant process. They need to have a balanced game be the goal. They can't continually tweak the game to adjust to shifts in play paradigms. It's a big picture thing, and so is very difficult to do, but it's very important.
Hello
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-23 10:57:21
June 23 2012 10:51 GMT
#5
In an interview at MLG David Kim said the new HOTS units were being implemented specifically to address problems in WOL. It's difficult to get a complete picture having only seen the MLG footage.

For example my biggest gripe with HOTS right now is the widow mine and the warhound. The first time I saw the widow mine I thought Blizzard was playing a joke, especially when I saw that it was produced from the factory and not some new unit's ability. It's just a silly unit to me. Same with the warhound; it's a marauder with missiles, missiles you don't even need to target they fire themselves automatically. They should have called it the no-fun-1a-mk2.

So to each his own I guess.

EDIT - I'd like to add that I haven't even touched HOTS yet so who knows, the widow mine and the warhound might be ridiculously awesome units and I just haven't seen enough. They might be so awesome I switch to terran.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
June 23 2012 11:15 GMT
#6
5/5 I agree with everything you said .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Ero-Sennin
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States756 Posts
June 23 2012 11:37 GMT
#7
I agree more than I disagree
Luck makes talent look like genius.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
June 23 2012 11:37 GMT
#8
Just one big whine, according to you every race is apparently OP.
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2585 Posts
June 23 2012 12:03 GMT
#9
I share the some of the same sentiments. Its really hard to be excited a couple of units when WoL tounaments are as stale as a week's old bread.
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44218 Posts
June 23 2012 12:58 GMT
#10
I disagree with most of what you've said here. It seems like this is just a big whining post about someone who missed BW (go play BW) and hates the success of LoL in Korea (it's an easier game for the common person to play).

Particular statements which are ridiculous:

SC2 does not appeal to pro and amateur gamers, to people that are completely new to the RTS genre, and to the eSports scene as a whole.


This immediately warrants a "stopped reading here", as this is completely ass-backwards. Have you been watching MLGs or Dreamhacks? Have you not recognized that SC2 has become the new RTS e-sport? For crying out loud, it's big enough to replace BW (rest in peace). Players and casters and teams are making careers out of SC2. Quite frankly, you're completely wrong.

And what does Blizzard do to fix this? Absolutely nothing. Adding a few more units to the game does not fix the plethora of problems Blizzard has to deal with. Shoving them under the carpet makes this game worse.


Ah, problems that you did not mention or ask how they would be fixed. How clever. What are these problems that- in no way- could be fixed in HotS, oh seer of the future? You did say "Crap story, crap multiplayer experience, crap design", but that's about as generic and non-constructive as you can possibly get. It's like me merely posting that your blog is wrong because it's stupid, which is what you're saying to HotS, which hasn't even come out yet.

The only two units that will affect the balance of the game in a positive way are the Oracle and the Widow mine.


Oh really? Tell me more about how you know this, seeing as how you're not a game developer, you're not a game designer, and HotS isn't out yet. All you do is elaborate on how the oracle and widow mine can be helpful, how you don't like the viper, and don't talk about anything else. This, of course, is again ignoring the fact that HotS is still not out yet.

Every other unit and ability that is being introduced is just a piece of imagination from someone's head.


As is every unit from every video game. Well done.

Make units and abilities that help balance the game, not units that you think are cool.


I think that's fantastic criticism; I doubt the Blizzard balance team had thought of that! It's not like they've been patching games for any length of time now.

I'm all for critiquing HotS (and especially obvious balance/ design issues when the game is released), but all you've done is blast the game before it's even hit the shelves, which is about as non-helpful as you can possibly get.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
June 23 2012 16:43 GMT
#11
SC2 is "big enough" to replace BW for a while, but not even close to be good enough to endure the test of time like BW did. People who are making a career out of SC2 rightnow might be out of job in 3-4 years if everything goes wrong with SC2.

I don't like playing or watching SC2, and I agree that the new HotS units make people with BW experience think "WTF is this crapshit?!", but from watching the VODs released I believe that HotS is a huge improvement compared to WoL. I hate how botched up the new units are, but they are better than what there is in WoL.

Blizzard still has 1 more shot with LotV, where hopefully the Colossus will be gone forever, just like roaches and marauders and FFs and FGs.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
Yoduh
Profile Joined August 2010
United States216 Posts
June 23 2012 17:12 GMT
#12
You know BW is not dead yet right? and LoL is ahead of BW too, so not a good argument there.

rest of it does sound like a huge biased whine, for example:
Blizzard designed, distributed, and removed units and abilities that were roughly based off of BW with absolutely no regard for balance whatsoever.

really? you think they just added in units and abilities by just smashing their keyboards with their heads? I can respect and agree with some arguments against SC2 design but not when their presented in such an immature illogical manner.
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
June 23 2012 18:10 GMT
#13
I don't really agree with anything that you posted but I'm not happy with the direction that Blizzard is taking SC2. I'm really disliking how Blizzard balances stuff, how cool explosions seem to be their focus rather than strategic depth, and how lacking in transparency the entire process of balance is. I feel like after listening to some interviews (especially Bowder about PvZ I believe), they don't really know much about their own game, which seems shocking to me/
EienShinwa
Profile Joined May 2010
United States655 Posts
June 23 2012 18:11 GMT
#14
Too late. Blizzard fanboys are already here.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Blacktion
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom1148 Posts
June 23 2012 19:07 GMT
#15
You know what id liks to see?
The practice realm/a new third realm that doesnt give a fuck about the box and is there to test crazy shit. giving terran a properly viable AOE damage spell (if you say EMP im gonna hunt you down), 3rd realm, removing FFs smartcast to make them completely skill based and more balenced? 3rd realm, removing stim from marauders (commmenly asked for back in beta), 3rd realm.
Just a seperate realm that doesnt mess up ranking and is there to test random stuff. Not stuff the plan to implement (which is what the current practice realm is for). A seperate place when people can try their craziest strats and blizzard can chuck in their insane ideas and see how they pan out in games between random high level players ( theres got to be a simple enough way to make blizzard only recieve replays from players over a certain league/point level)
Where's Boxer, there's victory! - figq
Hungry Cerberus
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada29 Posts
June 23 2012 19:17 GMT
#16
You could make a legitimate argument about some of Blizzard's poor decisions but you are clearly so angry (or you write that way) that you aren't giving clear arguments about why. There is no point arguing about an Alpha build of HOTS as it will change so dramatically that we likely won't even recognize it by release. There were tons of units and spells in Beta WOL that have long since disappeared or changed beyond recognition.

I'm interested in your arguments about LOL surpassing Starcraft in Korea but you should make a clear argument as to why. What has changed since Broodwar to make this the case? I feel like this post could have been really interesting but instead of making an argument you decided to shove your anger at Blizzard down our throats.
iKill
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Denmark861 Posts
June 24 2012 00:50 GMT
#17
It took me until around the middle of the second paragraph to realize I was reading another generic "BW good, SC2 bad" rant from the depths of self-proclaimed eSports puritanism.

That's longer than most. Well done.
thepuppyassassin: "My god... the deathball's grown wings!"
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
June 24 2012 01:13 GMT
#18
On June 23 2012 17:11 imBLIND wrote:
tl;dr: Make units and abilities that help balance the game, not units that you think are cool.

If they followed your advice, Brood Wars would have been a piece of crap.

Starcraft was never built with the goal of "perfect balance" ever. When Starcraft first came out, RTS' were a shitfest of mirror-matches disguised with cheap paint jobs to make two identical sides look different. Starcraft wasn't built off of "balance", it was built with the intent to make 3 completely different races, which would be "cool". Balance was part of the game, because it would be less fun if one race curbstomped the other two, but they certainly didn't have a dedicated team trying to tweak it perfectly.

Brood Wars was exactly the same, because absolutely no one predicted that it would become a massive competitive sport that was worth millions of dollars. No one at Blizzard North tried to balance the game with their expansion, they just through in things that looked and acted cool. Balance came second.

It was only after the huge boom in Korea that someone actually went "Oh shit, we need to make this a fair competitive environment".
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV European League
16:00
Swiss Groups Day 3
ArT vs HiGhDrALIVE!
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
WardiTV645
TKL 230
Liquipedia
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
16:00
Warmup Cup 2
uThermal254
IndyStarCraft 196
SteadfastSC63
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 452
uThermal 254
TKL 230
IndyStarCraft 196
mcanning 152
SteadfastSC 63
UpATreeSC 59
BRAT_OK 54
MindelVK 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1927
Shuttle 1232
EffOrt 721
Larva 432
firebathero 365
Soulkey 323
Mini 318
Snow 261
actioN 219
hero 169
[ Show more ]
Soma 135
TY 66
Hyun 65
Dewaltoss 61
HiyA 32
JYJ29
soO 27
Rock 23
yabsab 12
GoRush 12
Sacsri 11
IntoTheRainbow 10
sorry 8
Dota 2
Gorgc11984
qojqva2456
League of Legends
singsing1933
Dendi753
Counter-Strike
fl0m765
byalli488
flusha320
zeus200
Foxcn73
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu312
Khaldor131
Other Games
FrodaN2358
hiko1080
Beastyqt477
crisheroes186
KnowMe142
oskar137
Trikslyr61
QueenE53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick45299
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 6
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2271
League of Legends
• Nemesis5907
• TFBlade1102
Other Games
• Shiphtur373
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 54m
RSL Revival
16h 54m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
19h 54m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 22h
OSC
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.