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On June 21 2012 12:23 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 11:43 eXigent. wrote:
Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement. But the game IS still being figured out, and re-figured out every time there is a major balance change like the queen range buff. The SC2 of today is a different game than the one from 2 years ago.
I agree with you on that statement, but the difference is that the game in general has become much much more refined. It is alot harder today to come up with new and innovative ideas than it was when everything was still somewhat new. Blizzard changes things every once in a while, but the core of the game is still understood at a much higher level today than it was when zerg was having difficulty. There are things today that you simply cannot get away with at a high level, unlike before.
The 2nd thing, is that almost every balance patch took something away from the terran race. Its hard to be innovative, and come up with new ideas when alot of the old ones were stopped dead in their tracks. Im not going to complain about the changes, but the statement made by the OP, telling terran players to learn new builds and innovate is not the easiest thing to do when alot of the innovation has been removed / hindered to some extent. I don't have enough game knowledge to conclude whether or not the game is truely imbalanced, however I do have a problem with someone who thinks its just as easy to "figure it out and stop crying" 2 years into the game.
On June 21 2012 14:20 Zombo Joe wrote:
Every time Terran finds a new play style it gets nerfed into oblivion and its basically gotten to the point where the only thing that still works is MMM and Marine Tank. Terrans have nearly a 30% winrate in TvZ, how could anyone in their right mind think this is balanced?
I find that 99% of the people calling terran whiners are lower level players who don't really have a grasp on whats really going on, and instead are blindly defending the ZvT matchup because in their eyes its fine. They would sooner get mad at something they dont really know about, rather than sit back and analyze whats going on. There are high level zergs coming out stating there are problems, yet these low level players are completely ignoring these statements in favor of simply insulting others. I strongly feel that you should be at a minimum level of skill in order to post in the higher level balance discussions to avoid the disaster that they turn into, instead of some actual enlightening discussion among decent players.
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On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote:
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
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On June 21 2012 14:28 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote:
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does. In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
He still complains about balance. As a matter of fact, he still complains about Protoss!
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On June 21 2012 14:28 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote:
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does. In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
Ya, I thought everyone would say it was T > Z > P > T (slightly favored for each race in those respective matchups)
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To the OP: yet another zerg writing a blog how terrans should stop worrying about balance? To me it is just a trivially disguised disguised outcry to preserve the status quo. Lets discuss the total fallacy of that.
2 years ago when the game started, there was indeed stronger terran presence. But why is that and is it the same as the zerg domination that currently reigns along with the toss kingdomship? 2 years ago, I say, game wasnt much explored and terran players evolved their metagame quite quuickly compared to zerg and toss. Hell, you guys were fighting mmm with roaches and stalkers. It took the collective zerg mind 6 months before learning that banes should not be a moved with the rest of their army. 1 year ago, terran metagame was evolved to almost max while tosses and zergs still played muta and collosi+stalkers and did only the bare amount of micro and werent even macroing correctly. In this sense, zerg and toss metagames and players were at their infancy while terrans were at their prime. Mind you that there was no much imbalance but khaidarian amulet, but EVEN with it tosses were not winning vs terran. Can you imagine nowadays tosses still having KA? Yet no big patches affecting tvp much but the emp nerf were introduced for a loong time. So basically 1 year ago tosses were still losing when they had KA. That speaks that at the time toss players were just a looot worse players than their terran counterparts. So when somebody was saying l2p to a toss, it actually was correct.
And then zerg and tosses learned how to play. Sure it took them 1 and a half year but they did. And we are presented now with the current state of the game where zergs dont a move their blings and where tosses make zealots instead of stalkers to counter mmm. And we can clearly see that the ultimate zerg and toss compositions, in plain words, are far stronger, easier to manage (basically both require an a move and spamming t at big clumps of units) and require disproportional amount of actions than a terran army. Any cute attempts of terran to spice up his composition should fail because every good combination has been explored, we had 2 years ofq metagame compared to toss 1 year and zerg roughly 6 months.
Ok, i hope we are clear that zerg an toss late game of a competent player are a nightmare to deal with as a terran. Fair enough, maybe blizz are right and terran has to do damage early game. Currently it is impossible to do so vs zerg.
Therecis no way to apply pressure in early game, no chance to win vs equivalent skill at late game. I call this imbalanced and I will continue doing so untill it is fixed.
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i dunno if its possible for the op to be any more terrible than it is
im glad other people have pointed out why that post was total garbage
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So your saying Terran's are whining and Zergs are better? Last time I checked Zergs got buffed every patch and Terrans got nerfed. It doesn't take a genius to find your opening argument invalid.
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On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote:
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
This was not exacly the case, there were imba-whiners in TL Broodwar history too.
A lot of them - especially PvZ imbalance threads.
The difference is that noone really cared about what they think.
Nowadays they have the power to change things... it's plain ridiculous.
It's like if highschool kids complain that in basketball the basket is just too high and the NBA would take it into cosideration lowering the baskets half meter each.
SC2 balancing is a social experiment gone wrong.
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I think time has to factor into it as well. There's a difference between balance complaints when the game comes out, and balance complaints when the game has been out for two years. When the game came out, banshees op, voidrays op, ff op, etc and time fixed that, mostly because people just learned to play. But after 2 years, are things really that simple to fix? While I think there's more that terrans can do, they can't really be blamed. I mean, was tvz really broken before zergs got 2 buffs? Seemed like the better player came out ahead more often than not to me.
People use to complain about infestors a LOT, and strangely enough, infestors got a nerf. Really can't blame the terrans. It's just politics yo.
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Lol as a long-time Terran player I must inform you of how wrong you are.
We NEVER complained that SC2 was an easy game, to WIN.
It's still an easy as fuck game to play in comparison to BW, but even harder game to actually win.
Since I have ~2000 games under my belt as random, when I offrace zvt and pvt I just copy one of the popular safe macro builds and dominate low master Terrans.
It's fucking ridiculous when I have so little practice as two races yet I just copy a build like Parting style 17 nexus into fast charge and Templars for the 1a win against the top 4% of players on the server.
I suggest you try and play a few games as Terran before posting your bigoted Terran hatred again.
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There are still units that Terran has yet to fully incorporate into their arsenal, at least in the TvZ match up. Ravens definitely have a place, and mech strategies are still developing. RE patches favoring Zerg, maybe they will make it so you can build a Rax before depot again and you can proxy reaper like beta/post release
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On June 23 2012 22:36 ThomasjServo wrote:
There are still units that Terran has yet to fully incorporate into their arsenal, at least in the TvZ match up. Ravens definitely have a place, and mech strategies are still developing. RE patches favoring Zerg, maybe they will make it so you can build a Rax before depot again and you can proxy reaper like beta/post release
If ravens are actually half the usefulness of a science vessel in broodwar than it would have mattered at it's current form Ravens are really not at the level to be using by anyone right now . Let's take a look at a science vessel in broodwar a spell for example like emp shockwave only cost 100 energy and irradiate only for 75 energy . Now lets look at the raven and it's amazing seeker missile according to starcraft wiki.com
The Raven can launch a seeker missile. It deals 100 area-of-effect damage against both ground and air targets, in a radius of 2.[10] The splash damage can damage friendly units. The missile kills on contact and can be avoided if the targeted unit retreats for the specific amount of time.
The missile will have a slight delay after launch, and a visual indicator shows which unit is being targeted, enabling the other player to respond. The missile moves at speed 2.953.[11]
You know why this is bad ? I don't remember science vessel ever need to target it's unit and give any indication to the other opponent it's about to unleash it's unholy payload at the enemy. If irradiates are actually still available in sc2 I bet you zergs are going to cry and will ask blizzards to remove it because it's just damn good . In my opinion I would take irradiate and emp shockwave any day over a damn heat seeking missile or better give me back my damn science vessels.
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I don't care about my rank. I just want to play a game where I'm rewarded for playing better than my opponent. It literally doesn't matter if I play better if my race is always getting nerfed (for legit or non legit reasons) and my opponents gets a free ride to 3 base.
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EPT
