Every thread I read about the game seems to blame balance for T's recent run of poor form. That the game isn't fun anymore because they feel it's unbalanced. GET OVER YOURSELVES. You all complained at the beginning that the game was too easy. The game just wasn't good enough and that it was too easy. Now there's some difficulty to the game, your race is now weak. Play through the pain, try and experiment. So what if your rank tanks, if there really is an imbalance then when it is rectified you'll be better for it. When Zerg was by far the weakest race at the beginning....any kind of outcry by the zerg was met by 'l2p n00bs' and shit like that. But obviously we have progressed nearly 2 years down the line. Instead of those people saying l2p...they're now saying the game is imbalanced.
'I quit the game because of the ridiculous state of T'....well fuck me...doesn't this sound like you want to be spoon fed your games. SERIOUSLY.....it's people like you that have caused the gaming industry to produce easier games, more casual games that are easy to complete. I remember playing games like sonic 2, where I would get really far, and lose every time to metal robotnik because I couldn't figure him out (last boss syndrome). I remember playing dynamite headdy and not having a clue what to do on the first level climbing the tower for what seemed like a life time....but I still played for the challenge. Games were more difficult back then...it was about difficulty...maybe if I was older back then it would have been easier, but these days I can complete a game with very little actual skill. COD is so ridiculously easy at points in single player that it's not fun.
Get over it people. If you feel sc2 is imbalanced, play another race, fuck around and when you get demoted to platinum or whatever, blame balance and just have fun with the game. Do some crazy shit until the game gets balanced (if). Who knows you mite find a new strat thats super fun.
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
I agree. As a Protoss player since Beta, I played for a good year and a half stretch where Terran definitely had the upper hand in a straight-up macro game (before players like AdelScott and CreatorPrime really popularized the double forge macro style we see today). I still think the Terran bioball is too strong versus gateway units, but that's a debate for another day.
However, the Queen and Overlord buffs I say were a slightly too heavyhanded approach to the problem of TvZ allins. While Terrans could win with cheesy attacks, in a straight macro game a ling/bling/brood lord style has proven to be too strong to beat. Terrans will adjust soon, however, and I feel like Blizzard should just stop balancing and let the metagame run its course. Then we might see something approaching Brood War balance.
I think there's two dimensions to the nerf: playing and watching. As a player, I don't care and it even makes laddering more enjoyable. I just mix a variety of all-ins, vary between bio and mech and I'll get my wins thanks to the MMR system. It might cost me a few overall ranks, but who really cares. You're totally right there.
As someone that watches pro's plays SC2, it annoys me. MKP vs Symbol today should have been sick, close series and turned into a onesided faceroll. Both are incredible at the matchup, and it would have been a much closer, more exciting series before the patch. Top terrans that used to be closely matched to top zergs, top terrans would crush mediocre zergs and top zergs would crush mediocre terrans. The matchup was pretty stable.
Now I'm biting my fingernails when MVP plays Line and MKP plays Yugioh.
I agree with your points, although it is pretty confrontational. At the end of the day... no-one is forcing anyone to play Terran. Pick up another race if you feel it is OP and abuse its power.
I play Protoss and used to think Terran was OP. Then I switched to take advantage of it and discovered very quickly I was wrong.
And *sigh* about the BW dig... It's not even relevant to the conversation. We're talking about Starcraft 2.
What I mean about BW, is that the balance of the game is not perfect (which most people claim) but maps are made to help balance it out. I watch a bit of BW and understand that some shit is batshit crazy strong but there are ways around it which have made it balanced.
Working around it is much more exciting than just patching it, which is why BW is so awesome.
Well, Z and P players whined about balance and guess what? Blizzard buffed them + nerfed Terran. Clearly whining works. Given this, how can Z and P blame T for whining?
On June 21 2012 10:13 castled wrote: Well, Z and P players whined about balance and guess what? Blizzard buffed them + nerfed Terran. Clearly whining works. Given this, how can Z and P blame T for whining?
Do you think the whining of the player base was actually a major driver in Blizzard's decision to make balance changes during the patch? I would have thought from their history, they would be making adjustments based on their own tests and what is happening in e-sports.
Blizzard tend to do their own thing and not give in to the will of the players (look at WoW expansions and Diablo 3). I'd be highly surprised if the whining of the SC2 gaming community was anything more than water off a ducks back to them.
And TBH it works. If they didn't stand their ground we'd end up with mirrored races like Warcraft 2.
While I agree that more time is needed to see the true effect of the patch, I think the range upgrade for the queen was a bit much. They should've tried range 4 first then range 5 if 4 wasn't what they were looking for. I used to play Zerg when I first got SCII and I had to put up with roach range being 3, lower hp buildings, etc... but anyone saying that Zerg players didn't cry UP at the time are kidding themselves. As for Protoss, I dunno, probably not as bad as Zerg players lol but there was a large outcry about 1-1-1 and what the best method to deal with it is.
I think the problem I see is, TvZ was already hard enough mid-late game once the Zerg defended any early game aggression but now the Zerg players can defend early aggression easier and go into the late game faster which makes it harder to respond as a terran. At my level with my bad macro, I don't get as badly affected but those who are in masters+, probably see the imbalance a lot more and I can certainly understand their frustration.
I don't like how you're coming off so agressive but I can agree with you on point, far too many people are whining. So you think your race is hard? That's good, it will make you better for it. You think X race is OP? That's an excuse. Unless you're top 200 in the world, balance is of no concern to you. If some random guy that you don't know can get rank 1 masters without even being pro as Terran, it means it's not affecting him that much so it shouldn't affect you either. There is ALWAYS something to improve upon.
I feel like the frustrating part for terran has to be how the buffs constrict terran builds. The overall strength of queens mean certain builds were made obsolete allowing the zerg more ways to cut corners and get that earlier third and fast creep spread. The overlord buff is exactly what zerg wants and needed, a more reliable form of scouting throughout the early and mid game in order to defend against all-ins that were difficult to scout. Im not interested in quick hotfixes as I feel like it takes time for players to adapt but my initial opinion is that the overlord buff is awesome while im not liking the queen buff very much.
from a spectator's point of view, the t v z matchup seems very tense from minute 1 to the last. t v p has also seemed back and forth to me with the exception of extreme late-game.
as a player, i feel that it's almost your *duty* to find a way to win.. regardless of what is placed in front of you. how many times have you heard of the story of olden sc:bw and how terran was obviously the weaker race out of the three? boxer still used those damn dropships man, and made them work.
it honestly gets on my nerves too, how stubborn or opinionated people can be. i seriously cannot see someone succeeding in playing or having fun in starcraft with 'clenched fi[sh]sts'..
i still love all the new blog posts and thoughts on how things are at the moment, and i know that things will look up soon, if not eventually.
one of the things i've enjoyed the most out of gaming is proving a statement wrong through relying on myself and perservering--they would usually be statements made about something i was directly linked to, even to characters/races that i enjoyed playing as.
i'm gonna throw a LoL derail here. i did f*cking fine as a lane shaco, god-damnit!
Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement.
On June 21 2012 11:43 eXigent. wrote: Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement.
But the game IS still being figured out, and re-figured out every time there is a major balance change like the queen range buff. The SC2 of today is a different game than the one from 2 years ago.
By the way, zerg "learned to overcome it" as a combination of metagame and balance patches. The infestor buff stands out in this scenario. And I don't know that the situation is all that different now than it was then. When the game first came out, a lot of people cried "Terran imba." Some people agreed, or debated balance with them. Others told them "noob l2p." Now Terran is crying imbalance. Some people agree, or argue balance with them. Others tell them learn to play.
As for my own opinion, I'm always hesitant to jump to balance. When I saw the queen buff, I definitely thought, well how am I going to stop a fast third base from zerg now? Previously hellions were an effective way to make sure zerg had to actually seize some map control before taking the third base. I refuse to allow the game to turn into something like ZvP where zerg is maxed by 12 minutes, so I do what I can to slow the zerg economy, force zerglings, and prevent a quick third base.
I do have to say, though, if it turns out that the third base from zerg can't be stopped, and I have to just allow the 13 minute max and try to fight it, I'd consider that a shortcoming in game design. Getting up to three bases of economy should be something earned, with a combination of good scouting, strong timing sense, and excellent defenses to hold off any aggression that would try to kill the macro opening before it got up. Creep spread, too, is supposed to be something that you have to earn with map control, and without hellions to threaten it, creep spread just doesn't seem stoppable.
On June 21 2012 08:55 OptimusYale wrote: You all complained at the beginning that the game was too easy. The game just wasn't good enough and that it was too easy.
Did anyone really complain that the game was too easy? That's silly. The metagame hadn't evolved much yet, sure, but that's still a ridiculous complaint. SC2 is a deep and complex game, and no one should be calling it "too easy" a few months after release.
Every time Terran finds a new play style it gets nerfed into oblivion and its basically gotten to the point where the only thing that still works is MMM and Marine Tank. Terrans have nearly a 30% winrate in TvZ, how could anyone in their right mind think this is balanced?
On June 21 2012 11:43 eXigent. wrote: Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement.
But the game IS still being figured out, and re-figured out every time there is a major balance change like the queen range buff. The SC2 of today is a different game than the one from 2 years ago.
I agree with you on that statement, but the difference is that the game in general has become much much more refined. It is alot harder today to come up with new and innovative ideas than it was when everything was still somewhat new. Blizzard changes things every once in a while, but the core of the game is still understood at a much higher level today than it was when zerg was having difficulty. There are things today that you simply cannot get away with at a high level, unlike before.
The 2nd thing, is that almost every balance patch took something away from the terran race. Its hard to be innovative, and come up with new ideas when alot of the old ones were stopped dead in their tracks. Im not going to complain about the changes, but the statement made by the OP, telling terran players to learn new builds and innovate is not the easiest thing to do when alot of the innovation has been removed / hindered to some extent. I don't have enough game knowledge to conclude whether or not the game is truely imbalanced, however I do have a problem with someone who thinks its just as easy to "figure it out and stop crying" 2 years into the game.
On June 21 2012 14:20 Zombo Joe wrote: Every time Terran finds a new play style it gets nerfed into oblivion and its basically gotten to the point where the only thing that still works is MMM and Marine Tank. Terrans have nearly a 30% winrate in TvZ, how could anyone in their right mind think this is balanced?
I find that 99% of the people calling terran whiners are lower level players who don't really have a grasp on whats really going on, and instead are blindly defending the ZvT matchup because in their eyes its fine. They would sooner get mad at something they dont really know about, rather than sit back and analyze whats going on. There are high level zergs coming out stating there are problems, yet these low level players are completely ignoring these statements in favor of simply insulting others. I strongly feel that you should be at a minimum level of skill in order to post in the higher level balance discussions to avoid the disaster that they turn into, instead of some actual enlightening discussion among decent players.
On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote: I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote: I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
He still complains about balance. As a matter of fact, he still complains about Protoss!
On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote: I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
In BW times, IdrA spoke of a race that was so overpowered that it wasn't even funny: Protoss.
Ya, I thought everyone would say it was T > Z > P > T (slightly favored for each race in those respective matchups)
To the OP: yet another zerg writing a blog how terrans should stop worrying about balance? To me it is just a trivially disguised disguised outcry to preserve the status quo. Lets discuss the total fallacy of that.
2 years ago when the game started, there was indeed stronger terran presence. But why is that and is it the same as the zerg domination that currently reigns along with the toss kingdomship? 2 years ago, I say, game wasnt much explored and terran players evolved their metagame quite quuickly compared to zerg and toss. Hell, you guys were fighting mmm with roaches and stalkers. It took the collective zerg mind 6 months before learning that banes should not be a moved with the rest of their army. 1 year ago, terran metagame was evolved to almost max while tosses and zergs still played muta and collosi+stalkers and did only the bare amount of micro and werent even macroing correctly. In this sense, zerg and toss metagames and players were at their infancy while terrans were at their prime. Mind you that there was no much imbalance but khaidarian amulet, but EVEN with it tosses were not winning vs terran. Can you imagine nowadays tosses still having KA? Yet no big patches affecting tvp much but the emp nerf were introduced for a loong time. So basically 1 year ago tosses were still losing when they had KA. That speaks that at the time toss players were just a looot worse players than their terran counterparts. So when somebody was saying l2p to a toss, it actually was correct.
And then zerg and tosses learned how to play. Sure it took them 1 and a half year but they did. And we are presented now with the current state of the game where zergs dont a move their blings and where tosses make zealots instead of stalkers to counter mmm. And we can clearly see that the ultimate zerg and toss compositions, in plain words, are far stronger, easier to manage (basically both require an a move and spamming t at big clumps of units) and require disproportional amount of actions than a terran army. Any cute attempts of terran to spice up his composition should fail because every good combination has been explored, we had 2 years ofq metagame compared to toss 1 year and zerg roughly 6 months.
Ok, i hope we are clear that zerg an toss late game of a competent player are a nightmare to deal with as a terran. Fair enough, maybe blizz are right and terran has to do damage early game. Currently it is impossible to do so vs zerg.
Therecis no way to apply pressure in early game, no chance to win vs equivalent skill at late game. I call this imbalanced and I will continue doing so untill it is fixed.
So your saying Terran's are whining and Zergs are better? Last time I checked Zergs got buffed every patch and Terrans got nerfed. It doesn't take a genius to find your opening argument invalid.
On June 21 2012 09:02 PH wrote: I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
This was not exacly the case, there were imba-whiners in TL Broodwar history too. A lot of them - especially PvZ imbalance threads. The difference is that noone really cared about what they think. Nowadays they have the power to change things... it's plain ridiculous.
It's like if highschool kids complain that in basketball the basket is just too high and the NBA would take it into cosideration lowering the baskets half meter each.
I think time has to factor into it as well. There's a difference between balance complaints when the game comes out, and balance complaints when the game has been out for two years. When the game came out, banshees op, voidrays op, ff op, etc and time fixed that, mostly because people just learned to play. But after 2 years, are things really that simple to fix? While I think there's more that terrans can do, they can't really be blamed. I mean, was tvz really broken before zergs got 2 buffs? Seemed like the better player came out ahead more often than not to me.
People use to complain about infestors a LOT, and strangely enough, infestors got a nerf. Really can't blame the terrans. It's just politics yo.
Lol as a long-time Terran player I must inform you of how wrong you are.
We NEVER complained that SC2 was an easy game, to WIN.
It's still an easy as fuck game to play in comparison to BW, but even harder game to actually win.
Since I have ~2000 games under my belt as random, when I offrace zvt and pvt I just copy one of the popular safe macro builds and dominate low master Terrans.
It's fucking ridiculous when I have so little practice as two races yet I just copy a build like Parting style 17 nexus into fast charge and Templars for the 1a win against the top 4% of players on the server.
I suggest you try and play a few games as Terran before posting your bigoted Terran hatred again.
There are still units that Terran has yet to fully incorporate into their arsenal, at least in the TvZ match up. Ravens definitely have a place, and mech strategies are still developing. RE patches favoring Zerg, maybe they will make it so you can build a Rax before depot again and you can proxy reaper like beta/post release
On June 23 2012 22:36 ThomasjServo wrote: There are still units that Terran has yet to fully incorporate into their arsenal, at least in the TvZ match up. Ravens definitely have a place, and mech strategies are still developing. RE patches favoring Zerg, maybe they will make it so you can build a Rax before depot again and you can proxy reaper like beta/post release
If ravens are actually half the usefulness of a science vessel in broodwar than it would have mattered at it's current form Ravens are really not at the level to be using by anyone right now . Let's take a look at a science vessel in broodwar a spell for example like emp shockwave only cost 100 energy and irradiate only for 75 energy . Now lets look at the raven and it's amazing seeker missile according to starcraft wiki.com
The Raven can launch a seeker missile. It deals 100 area-of-effect damage against both ground and air targets, in a radius of 2.[10] The splash damage can damage friendly units. The missile kills on contact and can be avoided if the targeted unit retreats for the specific amount of time. The missile will have a slight delay after launch, and a visual indicator shows which unit is being targeted, enabling the other player to respond. The missile moves at speed 2.953.[11]
You know why this is bad ? I don't remember science vessel ever need to target it's unit and give any indication to the other opponent it's about to unleash it's unholy payload at the enemy. If irradiates are actually still available in sc2 I bet you zergs are going to cry and will ask blizzards to remove it because it's just damn good . In my opinion I would take irradiate and emp shockwave any day over a damn heat seeking missile or better give me back my damn science vessels.
I don't care about my rank. I just want to play a game where I'm rewarded for playing better than my opponent. It literally doesn't matter if I play better if my race is always getting nerfed (for legit or non legit reasons) and my opponents gets a free ride to 3 base.
EPT
