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On June 11 2012 06:09 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:59 Fencer710 wrote:On June 11 2012 00:13 MCDayC wrote:On June 10 2012 23:39 Nazza wrote:On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote:
I never know how to respond to these posts.
On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you. I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on. I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is? That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there. His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o If it were true. He's good, and absolutely amazing for how long he's been playing, but Flash is worse mechanically and strategically in SC2 then both MMA and MKP, Mvp maybe he's comparable, but only because Mvp's wrists are on fire.
Flash had problems with his wrists before it was cool!
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Seems like you have to pay for those VODs  Are they going to be free later?
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United States7481 Posts
Did you watch Stephano vs MarineKing? I got that same feeling in game three.
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United States10290 Posts
FlaSh is gonna walk into Code S and be like "please stand aside for god"
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I can remember actually, pretty recent too.
MVP vs Squirtle, game 7. Winners win ;p.
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On June 11 2012 00:13 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 23:39 Nazza wrote:On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote:
I never know how to respond to these posts.
On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you. I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on. I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is? That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
Lol hype around players. Man I used to be fans of SC2 players, but then all of them started slumping the moment I decided to be a fan. (LoL fruitdealer, LoL)
His balance whining was actually in good humour, you know that right? Same way in BW, pros would always joke about what was imbalanced (See the all-stars pl match vs Bisu where they switched races if you don't know what I mean), but at the end of the day, they would knuckle down and get to work. The average ZvT'er in BW would complain heaps about mech switches late game, but someone like Soulkey just looks at it, and crushes it with a ridiculous flank with some well placed dark swarms.
On June 10 2012 23:47 opisska wrote:
If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
You assume that we play BW because of the players. While this is partially true, it just makes it painful to know that all the pros are going to switch rather than anything else tbh. I am first and foremost a BW player. I think that BW's game design at the moment is still way superior to SC2's. And I do read every single patch note that comes out, and I follow a little with the SC2 pro scene. And ofc I read the HotS preview. Seems to be getting better, but at the same time, worse. It's actually funny. All the SC2 people are like "OMG THIS IS SO MUCH LIKE BW NOW", and all the BW players are like "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BW IS LIKE. THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE". I just feel like they try too hard to make units around roles, rather than to make roles around units. So I have hope, but at the same time, high expectations.
And I dunno about BW fans contributing to the overall negativity in TL. Did you read the "Ask questions for Dbro/David Kim" threads? How many of those questions can you legitimately say are not thinly veiled balance whines? It was kind of sickening as someone not used to it.
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the VODs of the kespa invitational start at 20:17:00 for all the guys who are confused right now.
go to http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live#sc2
yeah it would be a good idea if they split parts into smaller vods, but it's because it's still broadcasting live.
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On June 10 2012 19:32 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 19:02 RaiKageRyu wrote:
Seems like rose-coloured nostalgia your experiencing which is cool.
But those moments happened in the sc2 scene as well with the top players like Nestea a year ago or MarineKing now. There are many others too, but you have to open yourself to see them.
These kind of things are all subjective. Nostalgia my ass if you read what op wrote and you read some tl fe you would have understood the meaning of "overcoming all odds by sheer of will " and the tl fe of Mind over mechanics come to my mind. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82317I find it convenient for individuals to use the nostalgia card for every thing they don't understand and fear of understanding it because they can't accept the real truth.
You really ought to try stop being so fucking bitter and butthurt. I see a ton of your posts being nothing other than elitism and SC2-bashing.
I love BW too and what's happening to the BW scene is sad. But SC2 isn't simply riding on some wave. It's not just there because it has 'Starcraft' in the name. The game is REALLY good, and maybe you'd see that if you'd open your eyes for 5 minutes.
I get it, you don't like the game. But you don't need to bring everyone fucking down.
I apologize for what will probably seem like an out of place rant, but seriously Sawamura, get it together.
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Aaaahhh....I guess it was ok? Flash was good yeah, and it's pretty clear they were working hard, but I didn't see anything that created the kind of strong reaction the OP had for me. Maybe it's just because I didn't follow BW so the commentators' attempts to hype the games felt somewhat flat to me. But if it gets you excited for the game I guess that's fine.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to seeing these players when they're fully developed. They definitely have a lot of potential*.
Edit: Just fixing wording, nothing important.
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this tournament was so depressing. invite 8 of the best BW players of ALL TIME and then make them play sc2. great idea
it just felt like watching generic sc2 players honestly
and that fucking HURTS me :\
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It's unfortunate that your Brood War bias makes you feel this way. This feeling is there for many of the people who enjoy watching SC2. Hopefully you'll get rid of it, so you can remain at your present state for a while longer.
Personally, the Kespa games were nothing but lacklustre, and devoid of any excitement at all, specially since the much more intense and higher level Spring Championship was taking place right there at the same venue.
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On June 11 2012 05:59 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 00:13 MCDayC wrote:On June 10 2012 23:39 Nazza wrote:On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote:
I never know how to respond to these posts.
On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you. I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on. I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is? That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there. His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
errr they were good but that's a little over the top lol.
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On June 11 2012 11:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 05:59 Fencer710 wrote:On June 11 2012 00:13 MCDayC wrote:On June 10 2012 23:39 Nazza wrote:On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote:
I never know how to respond to these posts.
On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you. I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on. I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is? That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there. His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o errr they were good but that's a little over the top lol.
Yeah, talk about delusion.
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On June 11 2012 06:23 Antoine wrote:
Did you watch Stephano vs MarineKing? I got that same feeling in game three.
I was about to post this, that game was a perfect example of MKP forcing his will upon Stephano to win.
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Yeah those were really good (I did fall asleep during Jaedong vs Bisu though T_T) But some of these games such as MKP vs Stephano were sooooo amazing.
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It's not starcraft 2 that's disappointing you or exciting you- the game has nothing to do with it. Instead, it's just the sheer visceral excitement of watching people you have been waiting on and following for years. The games were pretty low quality themselves, but the sheer hype behind it was what made everyone really happy
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On June 11 2012 11:58 DYEAlabaster wrote:
It's not starcraft 2 that's disappointing you or exciting you- the game has nothing to do with it. Instead, it's just the sheer visceral excitement of watching people you have been waiting on and following for years. The games were pretty low quality themselves, but the sheer hype behind it was what made everyone really happy
While i personally wouldn't describe the games as particularly low quality, i feel like they were substantially better than anything you'd get out of most pros (except maybe the tip top) after only 2 months of really playing it seriously.
that being said, the games were freaking amazing, and i'm filled with nothing but excitement for the coming months for sc2
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The biggest nerdchills on more than one occasion happened for me watching MMA playing.
It's like there's a point in a game where he will suddenly start multitasking heavily. Like changing gears driving a car, it's that tangible. And then the opponent will fall apart. The first couple of waves will get deflected and you'll go "ok,good defending" but then the observer will switch to 2 other places where are more hit squads completely alone doing their thing.
And at the same time his main army will be split in two, trying to bait fungals and storms or trying to break apart a tank line with pure bio and your mind will be fucked by the amount of sheer skill you are witnessing.
Also he's the only player with sparks of pure brilliance that no other player has ever shown. Tank lift with medivacs in the middle of the fight during the 2nd game vs DRG anyone? Remember that?
Ima load up a vod right now.
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I love SC2 and the showing from the KeSPA players is definitely good, I especially liked how Tastosis explained a lot of the past for the viewers at the time, it was definitely a good thing to hear about the days when i was just too young to know about it all. The fact is that BW is an old community with a lot of history, and bringing at least part of it to sc2 might not be a bad thing at all.
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i watched flash's pov and his micro is insane! i am very impressed with his mechanics as well ^_^
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EPT
