In 2008, the greatest thing about watching professional Brood War was the feeling that you got when pro players seemed to make something happen in the game via sheer force of will. Players like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu seemed to go beyond what was possible with their respective races, making things happen that simply shouldn't have happened.
That feeling got lost in SC2, somewhat. When players play really well, it feels as if they've reached the absolute limit of what each race can do. When Stephano plays his style to perfection, it feels really refined and it's enjoyable to watch, but that visceral feeling of awe just isn't there for me, or at least hasn't been since the beta.
But tonight that changed. I saw the players introduce themselves on stage and my heart started pumping. I saw Flash impose his will on Stork with the SCV rush in game 1. I saw Jaedong will himself to victory vs Leta in game 3, playing Zerg the way it was meant to be played: constant attacks, some of them failing, most of them crushing.
That old familiar feeling came back as if it had never left.
Maybe this'll be short-lived. Maybe there's just a huge skill difference between Jaedong and Leta, or maybe the SCV rush Flash did just isn't viable against a competently defending player. But right now, I'm on top of the world.
With their limited amount of first hand expierence with the game they have came so far. Given that they are eventually doing a full on complete transition to sc2 get ready for the changes that they will bring! New life/Energy is about to enter the SC2 scene for sure.
The spectator cam is always moving due to the action; kinda back like Brood War, I think. Jaedong's creep spread is already FREAKIN AMAZING though. The games have been the best I've seen in a long time.
I've followed sc1 more during the boxer era and a bit during oov's era, so i didn't get to know jd, bisu or flash's playstyle a lot. I've mainly followed sc2 for the past year, but I've never been this hyped after seeing bw players playing sc2. Can't believe that they are this good after only a few months of practice. These games are just amazing!
Ok, I'm convinced that Flash is a complete step above the rest of these guys. It looks like he could probably jump right into this MLG and at least have a shot of getting top 8 or something.
Seriously, only Flash impressed me. I'll be happy when (if) they're close to his level and show it off in Proleague and Starleague.
But keeping his resources below 200 and controlling multiple separate bio groups and perfect siege timing, I enjoyed. Making as many medivacs as medics is also fun.
Yeah, watching SC2 being played by the KeSPA pros is far more exciting than I ever thought watching SC2 could be. I had lost 99.99% interest in SC2 a couple months ago but the new SPL season has reinvigorated SC2 for me.
I have succesfully brainwashed myself to be able to enjoy SC2, side effect: you might loose some flare for BW. Whats the recipe you ask? Start playing SC2 instead of BW, find sc2 streams and follow them and in a month or two you will succesfuilly have brainwashed urself
Seems like rose-coloured nostalgia your experiencing which is cool.
But those moments happened in the sc2 scene as well with the top players like Nestea a year ago or MarineKing now. There are many others too, but you have to open yourself to see them.
On June 10 2012 19:02 RaiKageRyu wrote: Seems like rose-coloured nostalgia your experiencing which is cool.
But those moments happened in the sc2 scene as well with the top players like Nestea a year ago or MarineKing now. There are many others too, but you have to open yourself to see them.
These kind of things are all subjective.
Nostalgia my ass if you read what op wrote and you read some tl fe you would have understood the meaning of "overcoming all odds by sheer of will " and the tl fe of Mind over mechanics come to my mind.
I find it convenient for individuals to use the nostalgia card for every thing they don't understand and fear of understanding it because they can't accept the real truth.
On June 10 2012 16:41 ClysmiC wrote: Ok, I'm convinced that Flash is a complete step above the rest of these guys. It looks like he could probably jump right into this MLG and at least have a shot of getting top 8 or something.
The games he played were entertaining and he has come a very long way but there is not way in hell he will be able to compete with top players at this point. Still too passive and a bit unaware of the different kinds of thing the other races can throw at you. Once he gets situated he will probably top the tournaments but for now he wouldnt even make to ro32 in an MLG.
I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I'm a huge Flash fan. I dislike SC2. Doesn't sound like nostalgia (anyone who has watch sAviOr or Flash at their prime, or Jaedong in his best games know what you mean). But I do think that you're just being a fanboy here. I'm kinda ok with that most of the time I guess. Not here.
Hmmm if it takes 4 years (2008-2012) to be nostalgic about some thing than I am pretty nostalgic about the cs source scene it's been around for a short time and yet I still miss it . Fun times I guess.
I always enjoy SC2 more when my favourite players/teams are playing. Any match with HayprO in and I'll enjoy it even if he loses (although obviously more if he wins :D)
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
On June 10 2012 16:41 ClysmiC wrote: Ok, I'm convinced that Flash is a complete step above the rest of these guys. It looks like he could probably jump right into this MLG and at least have a shot of getting top 8 or something.
he would lose in the open bracket most likely
his micro is already incredible, but he still needs a lot more strategic variety and sc2 knowledge to perfect his decision making. Also, his knowlledge of unit composition and timings is far off still.
But damn, its already freakin amazin how he plays after such a short time!
I hate to be a pessimist, but were those games really that good? Everyone venerates the way Flash played, but in my opinion the games weren't anything amazing by any means. Just because they're the BW heroes, it feels like people make their play out to be more amazing than it is.
E: Didn't read your other post. It's cool that you're getting excited about it again. I hope you're able to find the same passion with SC2 as you did with BW.
On June 11 2012 01:31 Chef wrote: Can't seem to find the VODs after 4 minutes of looking through mlg and kespa channel. I guess you have to pay to watch. LOL sc2 -.-
1. go to mlgpro.com 2. click starcraft 2 3. a giant ass VOD of the last 23 hours starts playing
Seeing them all on stage together got my heart pumping, but as soon as SC2 loaded up I just found myself thinking 'meh'.
I followed almost all MLG games because I didn't want to miss the KeSPA invitational, but none of them was half-exciting as BW used to be. The closest one was MKP vs Stephano, which actually made me pay attention to the game unlike the rest.
However I was linked to 2 HotS VODs and the expasion is actually better than WoL for sure, battles last longer and there is BW-esque elements to it. Still feels like a butchered BW version, but at least its better than WoL.
On June 11 2012 01:48 fabiano wrote: SC2 is still boring for me.
Seeing them all on stage together got my heart pumping, but as soon as SC2 loaded up I just found myself thinking 'meh'.
I followed almost all MLG games because I didn't want to miss the KeSPA invitational, but none of them was half-exciting as BW used to be. The closest one was MKP vs Stephano, which actually made me pay attention to the game unlike the rest.
However I was linked to 2 HotS VODs and the expasion is actually better than WoL for sure, battles last longer and there is BW-esque elements to it. Still feels like a butchered BW version, but at least its better than WoL.
There is still hope...
dont forget that players still get a lot better.
imagine MKP and stephano playing HotS on an ever higher level than they play WoL now - against kespa pros on the same level. im sure sooner or later it will get you excited.
Flash was so scary. So scary. This after practicing for 1.5 months? There is absolutely no doubt that he will dominate. The positioning, the micro, the ceaseless mind games. I'm thinking of game 1 vs. Bisu-- sure Bisu's build could've been tighter, and his transitions quicker, and sure Flash's lack of experience in certain situations showed, but given the context of the game Flash just absolutely crushed through sheer force of will-- you almost never see that kind of raw presence in a game of sc2.
On June 11 2012 01:28 Dalguno wrote: I hate to be a pessimist, but were those games really that good? Everyone venerates the way Flash played, but in my opinion the games weren't anything amazing by any means. Just because they're the BW heroes, it feels like people make their play out to be more amazing than it is.
E: Didn't read your other post. It's cool that you're getting excited about it again. I hope you're able to find the same passion with SC2 as you did with BW.
Well for me it wasnt so much that they were that good as that they were a LOT better then I expected them to be at this point in their sc2 practice. That in turn made me get excited at what kind of play I could be seeing from these guy in 3 months time, and then in 6 months time.
That for me is what made it so exciting because in all honesty I was expecting to see much lower level play than I witnessed.
On June 11 2012 01:31 Chef wrote: Can't seem to find the VODs after 4 minutes of looking through mlg and kespa channel. I guess you have to pay to watch. LOL sc2 -.-
1. go to mlgpro.com 2. click starcraft 2 3. a giant ass VOD of the last 23 hours starts playing
LOL Chef -.-
So not organized at all and impossible to find if you don't already know what that is? Because it is labeled "polt vs oz" and I don't have ESP. So when do the vods of the progamers occur?
On June 11 2012 01:31 Chef wrote: Can't seem to find the VODs after 4 minutes of looking through mlg and kespa channel. I guess you have to pay to watch. LOL sc2 -.-
1. go to mlgpro.com 2. click starcraft 2 3. a giant ass VOD of the last 23 hours starts playing
LOL Chef -.-
So not organized at all and impossible to find if you don't already know what that is? Because it is labeled "polt vs oz" and I don't have ESP. So when do the vods of the progamers occur?
well thanks anyway ;p I'll give it a watch.
I cant remember the exact time but it was the last few hours of last night, so you should be able to skip forward to it and then poke a few times to find the exact timing.
The game (3?) where jaedong just kind of kept attacking 24/7 was mind blowing for me lol. But dam did the players improve from before, really shows what lots of dedication and practice can do to people ^_^
Ya, I dunno they had JD vs leta which were pretty lackluster, apparently a bunch of other games were played on the 'premium stream' then they had the first game of flash v stork, and 3 minutes of the second game of those two, then they cut to a feed of two empty chairs for 3 hours. So yea that's awesome ;p
I enjoy playing and watching both BW and SC2 regularly.
I liked the special Kespa tourney in SC2 a lot, but mostly because of the personalities - and stuff like the desperate mass queen nydus by JD - not that much because of the gameplay. There's been many SCV rushes and very intense multi-pronged plays in SC2 over this time, even we could say the BW pro's are currently just emulating SC2 pro's for the most part (they did say they study a lot of VODs). I'm just excited for having them in SC2 hopefully developing the game styles further as they become much better than they are now.
P.S. Forgot to mention, it's also super exciting to see how fast they progress. It's been just a week or two, and I can literally see them play more and more thoughtful and solid than they were in the beginning of SPL.
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
If it were true. He's good, and absolutely amazing for how long he's been playing, but Flash is worse mechanically and strategically in SC2 then both MMA and MKP, Mvp maybe he's comparable, but only because Mvp's wrists are on fire.
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
If it were true. He's good, and absolutely amazing for how long he's been playing, but Flash is worse mechanically and strategically in SC2 then both MMA and MKP, Mvp maybe he's comparable, but only because Mvp's wrists are on fire.
Flash had problems with his wrists before it was cool!
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
Lol hype around players. Man I used to be fans of SC2 players, but then all of them started slumping the moment I decided to be a fan. (LoL fruitdealer, LoL)
His balance whining was actually in good humour, you know that right? Same way in BW, pros would always joke about what was imbalanced (See the all-stars pl match vs Bisu where they switched races if you don't know what I mean), but at the end of the day, they would knuckle down and get to work. The average ZvT'er in BW would complain heaps about mech switches late game, but someone like Soulkey just looks at it, and crushes it with a ridiculous flank with some well placed dark swarms.
On June 10 2012 23:47 opisska wrote: If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
You assume that we play BW because of the players. While this is partially true, it just makes it painful to know that all the pros are going to switch rather than anything else tbh. I am first and foremost a BW player. I think that BW's game design at the moment is still way superior to SC2's. And I do read every single patch note that comes out, and I follow a little with the SC2 pro scene. And ofc I read the HotS preview. Seems to be getting better, but at the same time, worse. It's actually funny. All the SC2 people are like "OMG THIS IS SO MUCH LIKE BW NOW", and all the BW players are like "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BW IS LIKE. THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE". I just feel like they try too hard to make units around roles, rather than to make roles around units. So I have hope, but at the same time, high expectations.
And I dunno about BW fans contributing to the overall negativity in TL. Did you read the "Ask questions for Dbro/David Kim" threads? How many of those questions can you legitimately say are not thinly veiled balance whines? It was kind of sickening as someone not used to it.
On June 10 2012 19:02 RaiKageRyu wrote: Seems like rose-coloured nostalgia your experiencing which is cool.
But those moments happened in the sc2 scene as well with the top players like Nestea a year ago or MarineKing now. There are many others too, but you have to open yourself to see them.
These kind of things are all subjective.
Nostalgia my ass if you read what op wrote and you read some tl fe you would have understood the meaning of "overcoming all odds by sheer of will " and the tl fe of Mind over mechanics come to my mind.
I find it convenient for individuals to use the nostalgia card for every thing they don't understand and fear of understanding it because they can't accept the real truth.
You really ought to try stop being so fucking bitter and butthurt. I see a ton of your posts being nothing other than elitism and SC2-bashing.
I love BW too and what's happening to the BW scene is sad. But SC2 isn't simply riding on some wave. It's not just there because it has 'Starcraft' in the name. The game is REALLY good, and maybe you'd see that if you'd open your eyes for 5 minutes.
I get it, you don't like the game. But you don't need to bring everyone fucking down.
I apologize for what will probably seem like an out of place rant, but seriously Sawamura, get it together.
Aaaahhh....I guess it was ok? Flash was good yeah, and it's pretty clear they were working hard, but I didn't see anything that created the kind of strong reaction the OP had for me. Maybe it's just because I didn't follow BW so the commentators' attempts to hype the games felt somewhat flat to me. But if it gets you excited for the game I guess that's fine.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to seeing these players when they're fully developed. They definitely have a lot of potential*.
It's unfortunate that your Brood War bias makes you feel this way. This feeling is there for many of the people who enjoy watching SC2. Hopefully you'll get rid of it, so you can remain at your present state for a while longer.
Personally, the Kespa games were nothing but lacklustre, and devoid of any excitement at all, specially since the much more intense and higher level Spring Championship was taking place right there at the same venue.
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
errr they were good but that's a little over the top lol.
On June 10 2012 21:04 MCDayC wrote: I never know how to respond to these posts. On the one hand, its awesome that you enjoyed the games so so much. I can't take that away from you, and if you lost a bit of passion coming into SC2, but got in back when the Kespa guys play, the great, thats really a good thing.
On the other hand though, you kinda have to admit that what you said is pretty fluffy. Apart from the inherent impossibility of doing what you said (playing more than the race's ability) in a video with hard numerical caps on units, the idea behind it is still definitely there in SC2, but really, not shown in those Kespa games.
If it wasn't Flash doing the SCV pull, it wouldn't have been winning by force of will, it would have been a well executed all in in which the Protoss slightly botched the defence.
As pointed out in the reddit xpost of this blog and above me in this thread, arguably a better (but by no means the only) example of it came between Stephano vs MKP earlier. Stephano getting an engagement that he should not have been able to win in almost any other circumstance in G2, or MKP loosing 40 SCVs but refusing to die, and going on to win G3.
But even then, I can't be too critical. You got super hyped up by the games (as did loads and loads of other people) and enjoyed SC2 in a different way than you had before, and in the ends thats more important, even if I completely disagree with you.
I feel like in SC2, battles are decided before the engagement actually happens almost all the time. You attack at the wrong timing and you just get steamrolled. There is no tension over who is going to win. Maybe it's just internal bias, but I did feel that the KesPa pros did put on an exciting game, with quite a bit of action going on.
I dunno, I find quite a lot of tension in SC2 games, you just have to find the right ones, so much of SC2 is played out online or in mad weekend dashes, so truly top level jaw dropping is confined to brief moments in foreign tournaments (though there were certainly some yesterday) but are getting increasingly regular in GSL, particularly the GSTL. But yes, the Kespa were pretty exciting.
I saw FlaSh today, doing all the things that I expected he would do in BW. Maybe it's because I don't watch too much SC2 (Last real sc2 match I watched was last GSL finals), but it just seemed like his expansion timings were way earlier than everyone else's. Just a ridiculously patient way to play the game. He doesn't try and end the game as earlier if he knows that he has a better chance to win later on. I would say that I'm excited/anxious to see him play in SC2, cos he's one of those players that will prefer to drag it out to late game, and does not care about imbalance at all. He played well (he won the thing!) but I don't think its some strategic level above other stuff we are seeing, certainly we seen other pros take expansions earlier and be much more greedy than Flash was. And unfortunately he has done a bit of balance whining, even if it was light and blown hugely out of proportion by the community. He's not a God yet in SC2.
I don't know. I was still dissatisfied with the level of strategy involved in the game a few months ago. Not playing SC2 anymore has made it so that I care less about racial balance, but I still hate the fact that people complain that late game with X/Y/Z race is impossible, and that you still need X unit to counter Y. I'm hoping the new players will not only emulate current pros, but innovate as well. And tbh, I don't see why people want them to fail so badly. The elephant in the room may have angered a lot of people, but do they want the current meta game to stay the way it is?
That being said, I am very excited for Flash. I hate the absurd hype his current playing that he gets, but I always get pissed off at crazy hype, I didn't like it for Stephano, ForGG, Lucifron or Aria, and I don't like it now, but I think only idiots don't think that Flash is gonna be really good at SC2. His play isn't there yet, and people need to calm the fuck down about it imo, but he's gonna get there.
His marine splits are better than MKP's, Mvp's, and MMA's while being under 100 minerals. Surely that counts for something. O.o
errr they were good but that's a little over the top lol.
It's not starcraft 2 that's disappointing you or exciting you- the game has nothing to do with it. Instead, it's just the sheer visceral excitement of watching people you have been waiting on and following for years. The games were pretty low quality themselves, but the sheer hype behind it was what made everyone really happy
On June 11 2012 11:58 DYEAlabaster wrote: It's not starcraft 2 that's disappointing you or exciting you- the game has nothing to do with it. Instead, it's just the sheer visceral excitement of watching people you have been waiting on and following for years. The games were pretty low quality themselves, but the sheer hype behind it was what made everyone really happy
While i personally wouldn't describe the games as particularly low quality, i feel like they were substantially better than anything you'd get out of most pros (except maybe the tip top) after only 2 months of really playing it seriously.
that being said, the games were freaking amazing, and i'm filled with nothing but excitement for the coming months for sc2
The biggest nerdchills on more than one occasion happened for me watching MMA playing. It's like there's a point in a game where he will suddenly start multitasking heavily. Like changing gears driving a car, it's that tangible. And then the opponent will fall apart. The first couple of waves will get deflected and you'll go "ok,good defending" but then the observer will switch to 2 other places where are more hit squads completely alone doing their thing. And at the same time his main army will be split in two, trying to bait fungals and storms or trying to break apart a tank line with pure bio and your mind will be fucked by the amount of sheer skill you are witnessing.
Also he's the only player with sparks of pure brilliance that no other player has ever shown. Tank lift with medivacs in the middle of the fight during the 2nd game vs DRG anyone? Remember that? Ima load up a vod right now.
I love SC2 and the showing from the KeSPA players is definitely good, I especially liked how Tastosis explained a lot of the past for the viewers at the time, it was definitely a good thing to hear about the days when i was just too young to know about it all. The fact is that BW is an old community with a lot of history, and bringing at least part of it to sc2 might not be a bad thing at all.
Oh I was definitely grinning from ear to ear during the player intros. I couldn't stop smiling as they all took to the stage. I definitely enjoyed seeing them come to an American tournament as I never thought I'd see the day. And it was certainly interesting to see how far they've come.
But it's still very hard to see my multi-tasking hero Bisu play SC2 Protoss when I know what BW allowed him to do.
I remember a Gsl where Mvp did pretty amazing comeback vs Leenock playing like a god. Also many othere Mvp games, in the recent Gsl where hehad an aura of a champion. Also MMA does have something special about him.
Err the play wasnt even close to perfect I was sad that stork could not hit ramp forcefield 3 times in a row any gold league player would, thats not really a match you could feel someone will being enforced.
Im saying this as Stork fan with bleeding heart, he lost the game when Flash issued attack/move command on his scvs that was the end, even in the best possible scenario he would lose the natural.
How could someone who watched TBLS bw play say that. A specially when only in matter of few months this happened.
Those are 2 different worlds, these players at MLG were playing 1month of worth improvising starcraft where flash was just severely ahead in practice, thats all. All the other stuff is in fact personal affection to the players.
I loved the entrance i loved all the fluff i loved tastosis overhype, but that Flash vs Stork game got into me ... in fact there was nothing good about this game, Flash attacked because his keyboard was malfunctioning and Stork didnt know how to FF.
On June 10 2012 23:47 opisska wrote: If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
You assume that we play BW because of the players. While this is partially true, it just makes it painful to know that all the pros are going to switch rather than anything else tbh. I am first and foremost a BW player. I think that BW's game design at the moment is still way superior to SC2's. And I do read every single patch note that comes out, and I follow a little with the SC2 pro scene. And ofc I read the HotS preview. Seems to be getting better, but at the same time, worse. It's actually funny. All the SC2 people are like "OMG THIS IS SO MUCH LIKE BW NOW", and all the BW players are like "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BW IS LIKE. THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE". I just feel like they try too hard to make units around roles, rather than to make roles around units. So I have hope, but at the same time, high expectations.
And I dunno about BW fans contributing to the overall negativity in TL. Did you read the "Ask questions for Dbro/David Kim" threads? How many of those questions can you legitimately say are not thinly veiled balance whines? It was kind of sickening as someone not used to it.
No, no, I really wanted to be positive with the comment! My point was to express hope for SC2 to become eventually enjoyable even for BW fans and the possibility that this could as well be achieved when a large horde of extremely skilled players starts working on SC2.
I don't think that BW fans themselves contribute to the negativity, but the BW-SC2 tension is visible in many threads and it is kind of sad. Maybe if these posters start enjoying SC2, they will become happier and that would benefit the atmosphere.
On June 11 2012 17:45 Falling wrote: Oh I was definitely grinning from ear to ear during the player intros. I couldn't stop smiling as they all took to the stage. I definitely enjoyed seeing them come to an American tournament as I never thought I'd see the day. And it was certainly interesting to see how far they've come.
But it's still very hard to see my multi-tasking hero Bisu play SC2 Protoss when I know what BW allowed him to do.
Frankly its Bisu and HoTS protoss that made me most excited this weekend. The new protoss stuff in HoTS is going to be absolutely off the hook and I cant WAIT to see what he does with it...
On June 10 2012 23:47 opisska wrote: If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
You assume that we play BW because of the players. While this is partially true, it just makes it painful to know that all the pros are going to switch rather than anything else tbh. I am first and foremost a BW player. I think that BW's game design at the moment is still way superior to SC2's. And I do read every single patch note that comes out, and I follow a little with the SC2 pro scene. And ofc I read the HotS preview. Seems to be getting better, but at the same time, worse. It's actually funny. All the SC2 people are like "OMG THIS IS SO MUCH LIKE BW NOW", and all the BW players are like "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BW IS LIKE. THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE". I just feel like they try too hard to make units around roles, rather than to make roles around units. So I have hope, but at the same time, high expectations.
And I dunno about BW fans contributing to the overall negativity in TL. Did you read the "Ask questions for Dbro/David Kim" threads? How many of those questions can you legitimately say are not thinly veiled balance whines? It was kind of sickening as someone not used to it.
No, no, I really wanted to be positive with the comment! My point was to express hope for SC2 to become eventually enjoyable even for BW fans and the possibility that this could as well be achieved when a large horde of extremely skilled players starts working on SC2.
I don't think that BW fans themselves contribute to the negativity, but the BW-SC2 tension is visible in many threads and it is kind of sad. Maybe if these posters start enjoying SC2, they will become happier and that would benefit the atmosphere.
lol, I got so confused by this, you fudged up the quoting bit, I did a double take, I didn't remember writing that.
I was nodding off all weekend during MLG, even with the bajillion free Dr. Peppers I forced into my system. The KeSPA invitational games kept me absolutely riveted, however.
I have to say, some of flash's play gave me a grin that I don't normally get from starcraft. Usually I observe and analyze pretty intently, but there were a few minutes when i caught myself just watching and grinning. It was a great feeling.
There are a few rare moments in SC2 where the player you expect to lose a battle wins--and Flash's first engagement vs. Bisu in G1 was one of those rare moments. I was pretty sad that I couldn't go even though I am < 50 miles away, but knowing that the pros I've been watching for so long were playing games in SoCal is already unbelievably awesome.
On June 10 2012 23:47 opisska wrote: If this is the beginning of BW fans appreciating SC2, then what more could we wish for? Maybe it just takes the absolutely best players to show what is actually possible in the game? Either way, if this becomes true, the overall atmosphere on TL could improve greatly.
You assume that we play BW because of the players. While this is partially true, it just makes it painful to know that all the pros are going to switch rather than anything else tbh. I am first and foremost a BW player. I think that BW's game design at the moment is still way superior to SC2's. And I do read every single patch note that comes out, and I follow a little with the SC2 pro scene. And ofc I read the HotS preview. Seems to be getting better, but at the same time, worse. It's actually funny. All the SC2 people are like "OMG THIS IS SO MUCH LIKE BW NOW", and all the BW players are like "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BW IS LIKE. THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE". I just feel like they try too hard to make units around roles, rather than to make roles around units. So I have hope, but at the same time, high expectations.
And I dunno about BW fans contributing to the overall negativity in TL. Did you read the "Ask questions for Dbro/David Kim" threads? How many of those questions can you legitimately say are not thinly veiled balance whines? It was kind of sickening as someone not used to it.
No, no, I really wanted to be positive with the comment! My point was to express hope for SC2 to become eventually enjoyable even for BW fans and the possibility that this could as well be achieved when a large horde of extremely skilled players starts working on SC2.
I don't think that BW fans themselves contribute to the negativity, but the BW-SC2 tension is visible in many threads and it is kind of sad. Maybe if these posters start enjoying SC2, they will become happier and that would benefit the atmosphere.
lol, I got so confused by this, you fudged up the quoting bit, I did a double take, I didn't remember writing that.
This could actually become a pretty fun way to mess with peoples' heads
EPT
Are they going to be free later?
