EPTAlways love your blogs, Gheed!
A Polemical Diablo 3 Review - Page 5
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bre1010
71 Posts
Always love your blogs, Gheed! | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
Then again, all I wanted was a D2 reskin. Dem nostalgiagoggles. | ||
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metbull
United States404 Posts
But why always so negative? | ||
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Xiron
Germany1233 Posts
On May 22 2012 07:14 metbull wrote: Great blog. But why always so negative? Because. No if everything was fine it would be a bad game.... right? | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On May 22 2012 07:17 Xiron wrote: Because. No if everything was fine it would be a bad game.... right? I actually thought this was one of the more positive reviews LOL. I think Gheed was trying to be sarcastic not negative towards other people. Thats what I got from it. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
Congratulations! You, personally, with this review, have ensured that I will never buy this game. Not until I see it in the bargain bin for ten bucks, anyway, or I'm bored, or it's another dateless Friday, or I've been drinking heavily. This thread was the tipping point that made me not give a shit about this game despite having been excited about a sequel for ten years, and here's why: The story was dumb! No, you're dumb. Who the fuck plays Diablo for the story? People play Diablo because they have an addictive personality type but are too poor to spend real money gambling, not because they care about the fictitious interplay between Heaven and Hell. Go read the Bible or the Apocrypha or something if you're interested in that shit. Diablo exists to give people who want to grind but don't want to pay a monthly fee something to do. The story itself is fine, anyway. It's only there to give you an excuse to run around and fight evil and it does just that. Nobody reads the shit after the first run through, anyway, and most people probably don't even do that. This is precisely the reason I have mostly stopped buying Blizzard games: This infantile notion that the story doesn't and shouldn't matter, that horrible writing can and should be excused, that you can and should expect nothing more from video games. It's players like you, players who skip all of the cutscenes and refuse to immerse yourselves in the experience, players who say "nobody reads the shit after the first run through, and most people probably don't even do that", that hold gaming back as a storytelling medium. You look at this, then collectively vote in concordance with your wallets as if to say, "yep, more instant gratification, please." Fuck that. I find the idea of expecting and demanding nothing more than mediocrity insulting, and I am not about to show my approbation of such inanity by giving them my money. I expect the product to piss excellence. I will grudgingly settle for mediocrity if at least the intention was good, but Blizzard has continuously shown a complete and utter disregard for the process of writing and storytelling. They no longer understand that a good story can elevate a good game into something memorable. They no longer care. And why should they? Your mentality - seemingly in the majority - is clear evidence that their non-efforts will still be rewarded, so why should they bother to improve? It's clear that their products are no longer for me. Bringing the "no, you're dumb" argument right back around 180 degrees with the applied force of an alicorn sledgehammer. + Show Spoiler + @Gheed: I thought the OP was a great read, and pretty funny, and my rant above was made in the same spirit, so don't take it too seriously. =) I also thought your post fairly accurate despite its hyperbolic nature, and I agree with most of it. The complaints people throw at this game are inane, though I would like to believe they're made mostly because people are trying to justify their dislike. In terms of the story, it's actually one of the better crafted stories Blizzard has written in recent history... which is extremely saddening to realize, because it's still so bad. But you know what? I wouldn't even care if the story was bad. I'd still buy it and be disappointed in it, and then ignore it like you said and play it for the items. In fact, I wish I could do just that -- ignore it, and play it with a bunch of friends just to have fun and kill demons. But in this case, I can't. It's too much, and I've had enough of it. I will no longer show my monetary support of companies that show such a blatant disregard for that (still-numerous) minority who simply ask for decent stories in video games -- something to sink our teeth into, something to immerse ourselves in, something we can talk about besides just the gameplay. It's the same reason I won't be buying HotS -- I refuse to support the decision to ignore what I'm sure will be labelled "the cries of the fanboys" about something that isn't even too hard to improve upon. It's the sad truth that few gaming developers are good at storytelling, but Blizzard used to get a passing grade. Their games have always been quirky and used all kinds of cliche elements from other fantasy and science fiction stories, but they were strung together decently and executed well, and the characters were likeable and memorable. More importantly, stuff actually happened. The entire narrative of Starcraft 1 progresses in a logical, well-told fashion. Each mission has you doing different things, and vitally, there's a sense of progression in the universe. Contrast that with the SC2 campaign. The progression, the arc, is completely gone on a fundamental level. In place of a narrative structure, we have a much weaker structure designed to be malleable and based on your choices (which is a pointless endeavor because you end up doing everything anyway). There is a never-ending cycle of rescuing colonists and hunting for artifacts. More than half of the missions revolve around collecting the fucking MacGuffin artifacts. All the while, Raynor never shuts up about Kerrigan. Nothing of note happens until the absolute very end. Blizzard used to have science fiction authors working on the story for them. Unfortunately, like every other game company today, Blizzard has long since axed their creativity division and replaced it with Michael Bay just in time for the stupid epidemic known as the World of Warcraft era -- dumbed down and watered down. They used to have science fiction and fantasy authors working on their games. Now they've got Chris "Starcraft 2 is a story about a boy and a girl" Metzen, who's gone from beloved artist to George Lucas Jr. Yes, it has in fact been a year and a half, and I am in fact still pissed about it. Like with Diablo 3, I do not intend to buy HotS until I see it in a bargain bin, or I'm bored, or it's another dateless Friday, or I've been drinking heavily. Edit: 5 star'd for "Oh shit Duriel". | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 22 2012 06:55 EatThePath wrote: Equal opportunity demon possession. Am I the only one who thought this was cool? edit: About the story... For the record I agree with Gheed in principle because that's how I view Diablo as a vehicle for storytelling and a game experience, but I also agree with those who criticize his anti-anti-story rant as misguided and subpar. I just wanted to make one point. The narrative complexity in the Diablo games progresses in each addition to the series, but the presentation gets increasingly unhinged from the essence of the narrative that is being expressed. If you break down the story elements into the major plot points and analyze like a script writer, clearly D3 has the best story -- it has true tragedy, comedy that illuminates the world and characters, and thematic meat on its hero vs evil bones. But when you play the game, clearly it has the most unengaging, hokey, and audience-dissonant story. Why? It's transparently the same syndrome as most modern games: too many people working in disjointed chunks that produce an incoherent puddle of "assets" as opposed to something with personality, structure, and overarching presence. Every line is spoonfed to you to drive home the significance of what is happening!. Following the story is like going through an inventory line by line of all the reasons why you're doing this quest right now. News flash: every quest in every game ever is a kill the bad guy or fetch quest, spatial objectives being an offshoot of the latter. I am not looking for motivation, I am looking for spirit and mood as conveyed through goings-on, extra credit for philosophical waxing in the rafters. Unforetunately, the only soul to be found is whatever you can find in the corners in glowing granuals, piecemeal and scanty. Or whatever you dream up for yourself while you roam the desert listening to the adventure music. Wha? How is that different from D2 or whatever? It just seems like the story has way more personality, immersion, and coherence than any of the previous games. I'm sorry, but I really don't understand complaints against the story. If anything the story may just be harder to ignore, which is pretty odd complaint. The only other complaint that seems valid to me is the personality of my character. I mean my character just seems a little too badass, like we've gone beyond Chuck Norris levels here. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
My wind druid was awesome. | ||
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ZenCaser
United States19 Posts
On May 22 2012 07:13 Heh_ wrote: If you don't like the game, don't play it. No one's forcing you to play it. If you wanted A, B and C but got A, B and D, either suck it up or find a game that fulfills your criteria. If you got D, E and F instead, it's your fault for buying a game without any prior research. Hell yeah, if I don't like the game, I should STFU and just quietly stop playing. All purchaser reviews should be positive. Really, this should be true for all products. People who enjoy the game shouldn't have to read the opinions of those who were disappointed. It upsets them. I got 5% into Nightmare, hit a difficult pack and just went, "Meh, I'm done." Maybe if my D2 buddies find the game, I'll give it another go. Thanks for your advice; I've taken it. On May 22 2012 07:13 gillon wrote: Boss fights were bad, skills system too dumbed down, MFing wrecked, zero character custimization. It's an entertaining game, but it's no diablo. Then again, all I wanted was a D2 reskin. Dem nostalgiagoggles. I subscribe to all of this. I wanted a sequel to D2. So okay, I didn't get that. I got the crappy third installment that's the money grab. Have movies taught me nothing? I can't get over having only six skills. The arguments against this are, I don't know, not even arguments. Fine, give me a cooldown, but at least let me change a skill using keyboard commands. I kept getting the feeling that this limitation was for lazy gameplay/balance development. I don't understand any comparisons to WoW. The play is completely dissimilar. I don't care about the story very much. It's always going to be some great evil about to destroy everything, with one evil following another like a season of 24. But the mood, environment, music, fun illusion of getting Mystical Widget A from Bad Guy B is extremely uninspired and boring. I don't play games for the story, but when I pop open Arkham City / Max Payne / D1 / D2, I want some fun immersion. This is my least favorite part of D3. It sucked bad. Gheed, not your best work. Partially because I don't dislike the game for the reasons you strawman'd, and the rest was said well by others. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:06 Aylear wrote: Haha sweet, you opened the door to attacking strawmen in a humorous and hyperbolic manner, so I'll indulge in the same: Congratulations! You, personally, with this review, have ensured that I will never buy this game. Not until I see it in the bargain bin for ten bucks, anyway, or I'm bored, or it's another dateless Friday, or I've been drinking heavily. This thread was the tipping point that made me not give a shit about this game despite having been excited about a sequel for ten years, and here's why: This is precisely the reason I have mostly stopped buying Blizzard games: This infantile notion that the story doesn't and shouldn't matter, that horrible writing can and should be excused, that you can and should expect nothing more from video games. It's players like you, players who skip all of the cutscenes and refuse to immerse yourselves in the experience, players who say "nobody reads the shit after the first run through, and most people probably don't even do that", that hold gaming back as a storytelling medium. You look at this, then collectively vote in concordance with your wallets as if to say, "yep, more instant gratification, please." Fuck that. I find the idea of expecting and demanding nothing more than mediocrity insulting, and I am not about to show my approbation of such inanity by giving them my money. I expect the product to piss excellence. I will grudgingly settle for mediocrity if at least the intention was good, but Blizzard has continuously shown a complete and utter disregard for the process of writing and storytelling. They no longer understand that a good story can elevate a good game into something memorable. They no longer care. And why should they? Your mentality - seemingly in the majority - is clear evidence that their non-efforts will still be rewarded, so why should they bother to improve? It's clear that their products are no longer for me. Bringing the "no, you're dumb" argument right back around 180 degrees with the applied force of an alicorn sledgehammer. + Show Spoiler + @Gheed: I thought the OP was a great read, and pretty funny, and my rant above was made in the same spirit, so don't take it too seriously. =) I also thought your post fairly accurate despite its hyperbolic nature, and I agree with most of it. The complaints people throw at this game are inane, though I would like to believe they're made mostly because people are trying to justify their dislike. In terms of the story, it's actually one of the better crafted stories Blizzard has written in recent history... which is extremely saddening to realize, because it's still so bad. But you know what? I wouldn't even care if the story was bad. I'd still buy it and be disappointed in it, and then ignore it like you said and play it for the items. In fact, I wish I could do just that -- ignore it, and play it with a bunch of friends just to have fun and kill demons. But in this case, I can't. It's too much, and I've had enough of it. I will no longer show my monetary support of companies that show such a blatant disregard for that (still-numerous) minority who simply ask for decent stories in video games -- something to sink our teeth into, something to immerse ourselves in, something we can talk about besides just the gameplay. It's the same reason I won't be buying HotS -- I refuse to support the decision to ignore what I'm sure will be labelled "the cries of the fanboys" about something that isn't even too hard to improve upon. It's the sad truth that few gaming developers are good at storytelling, but Blizzard used to get a passing grade. Their games have always been quirky and used all kinds of cliche elements from other fantasy and science fiction stories, but they were strung together decently and executed well, and the characters were likeable and memorable. More importantly, stuff actually happened. The entire narrative of Starcraft 1 progresses in a logical, well-told fashion. Each mission has you doing different things, and vitally, there's a sense of progression in the universe. Contrast that with the SC2 campaign. The progression, the arc, is completely gone on a fundamental level. In place of a narrative structure, we have a much weaker structure designed to be malleable and based on your choices (which is a pointless endeavor because you end up doing everything anyway). There is a never-ending cycle of rescuing colonists and hunting for artifacts. More than half of the missions revolve around collecting the fucking MacGuffin artifacts. All the while, Raynor never shuts up about Kerrigan. Nothing of note happens until the absolute very end. Blizzard used to have science fiction authors working on the story for them. Unfortunately, like every other game company today, Blizzard has long since axed their creativity division and replaced it with Michael Bay just in time for the stupid epidemic known as the World of Warcraft era -- dumbed down and watered down. They used to have science fiction and fantasy authors working on their games. Now they've got Chris "Starcraft 2 is a story about a boy and a girl" Metzen, who's gone from beloved artist to George Lucas Jr. Yes, it has in fact been a year and a half, and I am in fact still pissed about it. Like with Diablo 3, I do not intend to buy HotS until I see it in a bargain bin, or I'm bored, or it's another dateless Friday, or I've been drinking heavily. Edit: 5 star'd for "Oh shit Duriel". NO. And i'm gonna take your side for a moment. I firmly believe that the coined term "generation of entitlement" is something spun by marketing folks to shame us into liking products, no matter how bad they are. Remember that marketing guy from EA who admitted that his job(he was let go recently) was to troll forums and divert bad press from EA games(notably SWTOR)? And to our herd shame, what he did actually worked... But you are beginning to stretch me there. You don't know who's behind the D3 story, the same way that you don't know which Symphony studio Blizzard uses for the music for their games. You don't know if Blizzarrd truly has used the same people for their story/music all this time, or whether they've changed up the contractors. Was BW music better than SC2's? To a large extent I would say yes. But again, what proof do I have that it's not the same music studio who did the music for both games? The stories have been written now. The stories have been told. It's time for new stories. It sounds to me as if you're just pining for the so-called old glory days of storytelling when none actually existed. Even the stories that you revered, were clones of other more "original" stories. Sorry to tell you this, but it's the truth. Just because you didn't enjoy the story, doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't either. About the only high mark I can give you, is that you sound like the kind of guy who would agree with me whole-heartedly, that Transformers the Movie(1986) completely destroys anything and everything that Michael Bay would ever put out. | ||
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
Sure it feels nice doing 10k a hit at ~50 in a line to EVERYTHING for a while, but its gets tedious and the class feels really unpolished. Most of the skills are copies of each other or are just actually completely shit, which is a dayum shame. | ||
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ZenCaser
United States19 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:08 D_K_night wrote: You don't know if Blizzarrd truly has used the same people for their story/music all this time, or whether they've changed up the contractors. Sure we know they changed music composers. Wikipedia knows everything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_III | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:08 D_K_night wrote: NO. And i'm gonna take your side for a moment. I firmly believe that the coined term "generation of entitlement" is something spun by marketing folks to shame us into liking products, no matter how bad they are. Remember that marketing guy from EA who admitted that his job(he was let go recently) was to troll forums and divert bad press from EA games(notably SWTOR)? And to our herd shame, what he did actually worked... But you are beginning to stretch me there. You don't know who's behind the D3 story, the same way that you don't know which Symphony studio Blizzard uses for the music for their games. You don't know if Blizzarrd truly has used the same people for their story/music all this time, or whether they've changed up the contractors. Was BW music better than SC2's? To a large extent I would say yes. But again, what proof do I have that it's not the same music studio who did the music for both games? The stories have been written now. The stories have been told. It's time for new stories. It sounds to me as if you're just pining for the so-called old glory days of storytelling when none actually existed. Even the stories that you revered, were clones of other more "original" stories. Sorry to tell you this, but it's the truth. Just because you didn't enjoy the story, doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't either. About the only high mark I can give you, is that you sound like the kind of guy who would agree with me whole-heartedly, that Transformers the Movie(1986) completely destroys anything and everything that Michael Bay would ever put out. Everything you said is completely wrong, or you are arguing against viewpoints I do not have. To start, I know who's behind the Diablo 3 story: Chris Metzen[1]. The writers of Diablo 2, conversely, were Stieg Hedlund, Matt Householder, Phil Shenk, Kurt Beaver, and Bob Vieira. I know this because the games have credits. If you want an easily accessible source, welcome to IMDb: Diablo II & Diablo III. This is why I laid the blame squarely on Chris Metzen's shoulders, and it's also why I made the Lucas comparison. The progression of Metzen from artist to head writer is eerily similar to the journey that George Lucas took: A man without complete creative control surrounded by people who knew what they were doing slowly gains more and more control of their projects until they have no one to answer to. Didst thou thinkest my quote from Metzen regarding SC2 as "A story about a boy and a girl" apocryphal or irrelevent? He is at the core of everything Blizzard does, and when you have a bad head writer whose visions of the respective universe does not match the tone or style of the original work, we get fucking Attack of the Clones. Okay? Moving on. As for the Starcraft music - something I didn't even mention, so what the fuck, over - the person above me countered that already by showing you that it was made by different people. Not just that, but multiple composers were brought in for SC2 - one to do the music for each race - to ensure there would be different musical feel for all three. It worked out okay and I have no complaints, because while I do think the music in SC/BW was better, it certainly wasn't a big deal for SC2 in any regard. The stories have been written now. The stories have been told. It's time for new stories. It sounds to me as if you're just pining for the so-called old glory days of storytelling when none actually existed. Even the stories that you revered, were clones of other more "original" stories. Sorry to tell you this, but it's the truth. First of all, saying "Sorry to tell you this, but it's the truth" is insulting (basically insinuating that the person doesn't know or cannot comprehend things on your clearly superior intellectual level) and is counter-productive when trying to win anyone over to your side. I recommend not using it any more. Second, I made that very point in my writing: That even back then, Blizzard games were not pinnacles of storytelling, nor were they particularly original. As I said, their games were always quirky and used all kinds of cliche elements from other fantasy and science fiction stories, but - and here's the important part - they were strung together decently and executed well, and the characters were likeable and memorable. They aren't masterpieces, but with them, Blizzard got a passing grade. Just because you didn't enjoy the story, doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't either. Nor did I ever insinuate this, and in fact I made it plain in my rant that this was why I felt the products were no longer made for me and my tastes. And yes, I would agree that Transformers The Movie completely destroys everything that Michael Bay has put out. Except The Rock. Because The Rock is awesome. [1] There are in fact a few co-writers for Diablo 3, namely Leonard Boyarsky, Flint Dille, and Jay Wilson -- however, none of them are credited beyond "writer" (unlike Metzen who is credited with the story), and not one of them worked on Diablo 2. Metzen did work on the story for StarCraft, but alongside a co-writer who is no longer employed by Blizzard. In fact, none of the old writers are. I meant it when I said that I think Blizzard axed their cleverness division a long time ago. | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On May 21 2012 17:58 TheKefka wrote: Story spoilers I guess + Show Spoiler + As far as the story goes I will never forgive blizzard for killing of Cain in such a pussy way.He didn't even get a epic death or a cinematic(well I guess that little cut scene when tyrael and leah are at his grave but meh) or anything,he just died like a bitch.Probably the most iconic character in the diablo universe aside from diablo and tyrael maybe to get such a pitiful death is just disgusting. I agree on normal being too easy.In d2 normal you could easily die to duriel the first time you fell down into his hole and it was like "o shit this bitch hits hard."I never came close to dying on a normal boss,hell,trash packs were easier to die on. The combat is pretty good tho I have to give that to blizzard.Feels beefy and much much better than in previous games. Hes coming back. The teaser trailer for D4 will be have cain's voice right at the very end and we'll all be like OH FUCKFFFFKKFKKFKFKF | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
Not everyone buys a game to replay it 50,000 times. Some people just want to play it once and they do so for the story. Also, the difficulty was almost nonexistent. This coming from a guy who played all the way to act 3 of Inferno with Wizard just to see if the gameplay ever improved. It did not. And considering it took me less than a week to advance to almost the end of a game... Pathetic. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
but there was barely a story in d1 and d2's story was about as good as d3 (ie pretty awful) wizards have a much easier time because there's a skill combo that makes u pretty much invicible ... and a week? how many hours is a week? lol the game's not perfect and there's a lot of stuff that needs to be patched out (wiz invulnerability, azmodan quad runs, monk near-invulnerability for example) but d3's probably the most solid game in its genre so far | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On May 22 2012 14:10 Dead9 wrote: uh idk if u've played d2 or d1 recently but there was barely a story in d1 and d2's story was about as good as d3 (ie pretty awful) wizards have a much easier time because there's a skill combo that makes u pretty much invicible ... and a week? how many hours is a week? lol the game's not perfect and there's a lot of stuff that needs to be patched out (wiz invulnerability, azmodan quad runs, monk near-invulnerability for example) but d3's probably the most solid game in its genre so far What? The original Diablo story was awesome. A portal to hell has opened up deep underneath a cathedral and evil has slowly seeped out to pollute the land around it. You investigate the disturbing stories of frightened villagers and slowly get drawn deeper and deeper into the evil, fighting your way through the macabre hallways of a corrupted church until you're knee-deep in demons in the very depths of hell itself. The storyline is absolutely epic. The ambient sounds and effects were terrifying. The setting was brilliant. Fighting in a church that's been corrupted by evil was such a delicious paradox. The Butcher was such a sinister villain when you first met him. You could just tell he'd been in there, hacking up bodies, and eating the innards of his victims for months. You felt the meaty thwack and visceral pleasure of goat men bleating as they hit the floor. Sorry, but you're raving mad if you think the original Diablo barely had a story. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On May 22 2012 13:25 StorkHwaiting wrote: I think it's nonsense to say people didn't play Diablo for the story. That was the #1 reason I bought and played the game. Diablo 1 had an awesome story line. I bought D2 in the hopes of seeing that storyline progress further. Same for D3. D2's story was alright, not great. D3's was abysmal. Not everyone buys a game to replay it 50,000 times. Some people just want to play it once and they do so for the story. Also, the difficulty was almost nonexistent. This coming from a guy who played all the way to act 3 of Inferno with Wizard just to see if the gameplay ever improved. It did not. And considering it took me less than a week to advance to almost the end of a game... Pathetic. You bought it for the story and then replayed it until you got to act 3 inferno?  Diablo 2 was shorter than Diablo 3. Diablo 2 wasn't harder than Diablo 3 (equal or easier) and unless you loved doing meph/baal runs or leveling up alts then the only replayability was pvp which was full of level 99's who modded their way to level 99. Pvp isn't even out yet for D3 and people are having fun with it. | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On May 22 2012 14:42 Corrosive wrote: You bought it for the story and then replayed it until you got to act 3 inferno? Diablo 2 was shorter than Diablo 3. Diablo 2 wasn't harder than Diablo 3 (equal or easier) and unless you loved doing meph/baal runs or leveling up alts then the only replayability was pvp which was full of level 99's who modded their way to level 99. Pvp isn't even out yet for D3 and people are having fun with it.I bought it for the story. The story sucked. I replayed it, hoping the gameplay at higher difficulties would redeem the game, in an attempt to recoup some of my financial loss from investing in such a disappointing product. I was further disappointed. Thus ends the tragic tale of The Gamer, Forlorn. | ||
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