On April 26 2012 04:12 Endymion wrote: Sorry but I disagree with their model of doing things if it means that they won't support us between expansions, I would much prefer a monthly sub if it meant that they would update bnet. 20 and communicate better with TL and fans as a whole
But they are supporting us. I gave in my previous post a whole list of things they have done (map pool, matchmaking changes, AHGL sponsorship, chat channels + name changes). Something to add would be developer updates on Heart of the Swarm, which they have done to keep us in the loop about the development changes. You might want to pay a monthly subscription, but I sure as hell don't. And I think I got a huge value out of my $60 purchase, whether or not BNET 2 feels lonely. I love playing SC2, I love the super competitive nature of the ladder, and I love the fact that Day9 and Blizzard support things like the AHGL.
Just because they aren't adding major features to Battle.Net doesn't mean they don't care. Honestly, hiring more people to communicate on TL or the BNET forums would be a terrible waste of time and money, as the vast majority of people just want to complain about whatever they can think of to complain about. The battle.net forums are a wasteland filled with trolls and people suggesting the stupidest stuff ever about what they'd like to see in the game.
Basically, they did a poor job designing much of the BNET 2 UI. That said, they did a phenomenal job with designing the gameplay, balance, and matchmaking system, and produced a really well-polished game. Given their model (which you do not approve of, but which is the traditional model, and does not require monthly fees), it does not make sense to do a major overhaul of BNET 2 for WoL. Wait for the big time changes in HotS.
But whatever you do, don't try to pretend like Blizzard does not care. "But JDub -- they DONT HAVE CLAN SUPPORT!" you say. Guess what? If you want to join a clan you can. If you want to go play in a tournament, you can. Everything that people are complaining about is, in all honesty, really minor features. Shared replay watching? Oh no, you have to e-mail the replay to a friend and sync it up over Skype. LAN? Oh wait, for 99% of players this does not matter, everyone has an internet connection nowadays, and SC2 uses very minimal bandwidth. Reconnection after a disconnect? This would not apply to ladder, as people don't want to wait around for their opponent to come back anyway (60 seconds is more than enough). It would be a really great feature for tournaments, and I would expect such a feature in HotS. As it is, it doesn't affect 99.9% of players, only pros playing in pro tournaments who are unfortunate enough to experience a disconnect.
The fact is, Blizzard is working on Heart of the Swarm, and simultaneously ensuring that the WoL competitive matchmaking system continues to function and gives players great games (map pool, matchmaking settings, balance patches). Meanwhile, a few Blizzard employees also showed up to spectate and deliver the $5,000 check at the AHGL Grand Finals.
It strikes me as absurd that people take all this and arrive at the conclusion that "Blizzard does not give a fuck about SC2", that SC2 is "a failure". I love this game. Sure, I'd love it even more if the BNET 2 UI was better, but really I couldn't care less about that. I log on every time so I can hit "Find Match", get an adrenaline rush and compete against someone of my skill level in an intense 10-15 minute battle. Playing SC2 is the most fun I've ever had playing videogames.
I agree with this...they've made it known that they hear the concerns that the community has. They definitely have listened in regards to gameplay and that's the most important feature of a game. HotS must take priority right now...unless people want a terrible expansion, it seems crazy to worry more about the improvement of social features RIGHT NOW as opposed to a game that has longevity through its content. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that everyone got so worked up about the social features lacking. That was because we had bigger concerns regarding game balance and the horrendous map pool. With patch 1.5 they're at least making an attempt to remedy yet another community gripe. Regardless, people won't be satisfied...it's how it always works.
They are trying to support the community...Blizzard certainly isn't hands off. If you want to see that, go look at any game published by EA. If you get changes from them, you pay for them. Blizzard isn't doing that with SC2 and this game, despite all of the negativity from some vocal community members has a solid base of players and a fairly well established pro scene. Find that with any other game on the market and then find me a company who continues to put in effort to ensure it stays that way. MOBAs are the only other exception at this moment and the money being pumped into their scene comes directly from the parent companies. With the market supersaturated with these games right now, that scene lacks any real cohesion. DOTA2 will fight against LoL just like FPS games fight each other. SC2 will change drastically with HotS which will bring in new blood and renew interest in the game. That is the most important thing.
As for the actual numbers that Blizzard is working with, I don't think they will make a bad business decision. It's funny how someone can say that they've turned into a greed-based company with no interest in their customers and then turn around to say that they're making a business decision that will be unsustainable. How can a company that is concerned with money to the point of near-intentional community neglect (supposedly) do something that will kill the eSports scene and stunt their income? I don't think they can/will. Of course Blizzard wants money...that is what they've always done. The $15 a year per viewer deal with Kespa has other factors that you simply don't know about. It would make no business sense to overcharge and I guarantee you that they aren't financially retarded. They crunch the real numbers...not just some hypothetical licensing fees and estimations on capital investments/salaries. The funny thing is, the OP would be infuriating if it were true. Sadly, one piece of information thrown in with hypothetical scenarios often comes out with unintentionally bias results. Talk about how terrible Blizzard is at supporting the community and how greedy they are...I personally wouldn't question their ability to make money. They know the price point for products and they understand how to bargain. Let the details work themselves out and it will probably be much different than any scenario people on a forum could come up with.
this is exactly the the apathy that I think is ruining both the community and the game itself.. blizzard doesn't give us something that we had 8 years ago like clan support or name change? oh don't worry they're a big company, they'll do it eventually.. region locking because it's "too laggy" where as iccup and valve and fish all seem to have it pretty well down? oh they're certainly doing the right thing for us. face it, blizzard doesn't communicate with us unless they're cutting features. "do you REALLY want chat channels?" tell me, how involved is the community with HOTS's development? we have nearly 7 month old information on units that've probably already been cut, why isn't development completely open so that they can atleast humor professional gamers' opinions?
their business practices are shaky at best imo, and how well sc2 will do in korea post SC2PL is still yet to be seen..
So they should hire a bunch of coders to overhaul the entire interface of a game that's a short time away from becoming obsolete in order to appease a few disgruntled, head-in the clouds people with unrealistic expectations? Furthermore, they should release privileged, alpha-level information to the public in order to stifle their own development process for fear of receiving endless complaints for every experimental idea they toy with?
Blizzard is a relatively large game development firm within a larger corporation who's primary goal is to provide the best services to the most people in as short a time-frame as possible; that's how they make money. Rampant oversimplifications and selective attention paid to financial figures you do not possess is only a better-disguised version of the same naive generalizations that all essential boil down to one reality-denying assumption: Blizzard doesn't care.
I can understand why, in the relative vacuum of information within which most large and successful businesses operate, it is easy to assume mistreatment and neglect. However, given that any system as large and complex as Blizzard's must continually balance and maintain a plethora of interrelated variables as rigid as accounting or as fickle as the moods of the player-base, any significantly malicious act would be presumably difficult to hide.
What is more likely: Blizzard knows fully well what features they want to include in their game and are working their hardest to provide them in a polished and final form? Or they are secretly hoodwinking as many people as possible in the short-term to get their cash and run, thus sacrificing any long-term investment in future Blizzard products and services (WoW, D3, HoTS, Titan). Companies don't start from scratch, develop a loyal following, survive for decades, and become industry giants by playing "gotcha" with their fans and going "all-in" in the hopes of making a quick buck. Customer relations isn't a best-of-3.
While, yes, some features would be nice to have now, sometimes you have to wait. Console yourself with how happy you will be when HoTS is finally released with every feature you've ever dreamed of and more. Imagine the imaginary numbers you can then post complaining about how they've added to much and have overwhelmed the simple minds of their consumers, just to feel intellectually superior.
Lol? The only reason they're even changing shit for HotS was because of people finally making a conscious realization that the current WoL version was shit. Read what they said. They're making changes as a reaction to the public outcry, not because they've been working on this shit for 2 years and wanted to surprise us.
On April 26 2012 07:36 Alacast wrote: While, yes, some features would be nice to have now, sometimes you have to wait. Console yourself with how happy you will be when HoTS is finally released with every feature you've ever dreamed of and more. Imagine the imaginary numbers you can then post complaining about how they've added to much and have overwhelmed the simple minds of their consumers, just to feel intellectually superior.
Really ? From what we've seen HoTS will be sh*t so don't really see a reason for praising it that much.
can someone please explain why interface has anything to do with it being a competitive esport?
last time i checked noone ever said "man the GSL finals were great but its too bad there wasnt a chat channel for them to talk to each other" or "its a shame they didnt have a clan tag in front of there name"
On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote: We all know that Blizzard fucked up with Starcraft 2 and that they continue to screw us with their customer support
Do we know this? Last time I checked SC2 is my favorite game to play, favorite game to watch, and competing in the AHGL was a ton of fun just because SC2 is such a great game.
On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote: TLDR: blizz should hire me, i could make them millions more than they are because i'm not an arrogant activision executive
Right, b/c an arrogant TL blogger who knows nothing about game development would be way better than an "arrogant activision executive".
It really, really bothers me when people talk about SC2 sucking, or Blizzard not caring at all about their customers, or just greedy greedy Activision blah blah blah. Let me explain:
Blizzard only will continue to be successful as long as their customers like their games, enjoy their games, and continue buying their games. They have no choice but to care about their customers. Let's see what they've done so far:
1) Kept the map pool fresh, and have continuously improved the map pool since release. Long gone are the days of Slag Pits and Steppes of War. 2) Continous balance patches to maintain balance in the game. Sure, I know many of you will be like "BUT ZERG IS FAILING HARD IN GSL RIGHT NOW!" or "BUT PROTOSS GOT STOMPED AT MLG AND DREAMHACK!", but the fact is that the game is insanely well balanced given the differences between the races. No one below pro level should ever complain anyway, as it should be simple to look at your games and see how terrible you are playing, and see ways in which you could have improved your game and won. I'm mid-masters and I am terrible at Starcraft 2. My skill is so far below the skill ceiling it is painful, and yet I'm in the top 2% of players. Blizzard has done an AMAZING job with their game design and balance patches. 3) Experimented with match-making settings and used user feedback to determine which settings to use. 4) Added chat channels and occasional name changes. 5) Promoted awesome leagues like the AHGL (for which they donated the $5,000 prize to charity). Playing in the AHGL was one of the most fun and rewarding experiences in my entire life.
None of these things directly make Blizzard money. There is no subscription fee in SC2, and adding features to WoL is not nearly as important for their business as is making sure HotS is a success. That said, they clearly care about ensuring that the ladder keeps running smoothly so that players will continue to enjoy their game and purchase HotS when it comes out. Features like clan support and shared replay watching simply are not important enough, and too much work, to put into WoL at this point.
As Day[9] said at the AHGL Finals -- Thank you, Blizzard, for making Starcraft 2!!
How can you say with a straight face that this list shows that Blizzard cares?
Updating a map pool? Online Chat? Most of these things are standard in any online game. You think Blizzard/Bnet promotes leagues and tournaments? Go look at any recent MOBA title, dota2, LoL, all do a much better job supporting leagues and tournaments.
Its sad that few companies dare touch the RTS genre because of starcraft 2s "dominance".
Regardless, it seems Blizzard has lost touch with their roots (through Activision, or something else). Across the board their games are seemingly lackluster. WoW is fading, SC2 is fading, and D3 looks unimaginative. Maybe their losing their creative edge, maybe its activison influencing their plans, or maybe their time is just up. We'll see.
I'm not on the Blizzard hate train, because I love most of their previous games.I could say with certainty that any game before SC2/WoW:Cataclysm was pure gold, but I can't really say that anymore. I'll wait until D3/WoW:MoP releases but my expectations are low, and my faith in Blizzard is definitely at an all time low.
On April 26 2012 08:07 Forikorder wrote: can someone please explain why interface has anything to do with it being a competitive esport?
last time i checked noone ever said "man the GSL finals were great but its too bad there wasnt a chat channel for them to talk to each other" or "its a shame they didnt have a clan tag in front of there name"
it's hard to see how many clans could have formed had there been normal support.. i can point directly to client DCs during tournaments potentially messing up the results of the event, that's the most jarring of the complaint as far as it effecting "esports" directly
On April 26 2012 04:12 Endymion wrote: Sorry but I disagree with their model of doing things if it means that they won't support us between expansions, I would much prefer a monthly sub if it meant that they would update bnet. 20 and communicate better with TL and fans as a whole
But they are supporting us. I gave in my previous post a whole list of things they have done (map pool, matchmaking changes, AHGL sponsorship, chat channels + name changes). Something to add would be developer updates on Heart of the Swarm, which they have done to keep us in the loop about the development changes. You might want to pay a monthly subscription, but I sure as hell don't. And I think I got a huge value out of my $60 purchase, whether or not BNET 2 feels lonely. I love playing SC2, I love the super competitive nature of the ladder, and I love the fact that Day9 and Blizzard support things like the AHGL.
Just because they aren't adding major features to Battle.Net doesn't mean they don't care. Honestly, hiring more people to communicate on TL or the BNET forums would be a terrible waste of time and money, as the vast majority of people just want to complain about whatever they can think of to complain about. The battle.net forums are a wasteland filled with trolls and people suggesting the stupidest stuff ever about what they'd like to see in the game.
Basically, they did a poor job designing much of the BNET 2 UI. That said, they did a phenomenal job with designing the gameplay, balance, and matchmaking system, and produced a really well-polished game. Given their model (which you do not approve of, but which is the traditional model, and does not require monthly fees), it does not make sense to do a major overhaul of BNET 2 for WoL. Wait for the big time changes in HotS.
But whatever you do, don't try to pretend like Blizzard does not care. "But JDub -- they DONT HAVE CLAN SUPPORT!" you say. Guess what? If you want to join a clan you can. If you want to go play in a tournament, you can. Everything that people are complaining about is, in all honesty, really minor features. Shared replay watching? Oh no, you have to e-mail the replay to a friend and sync it up over Skype. LAN? Oh wait, for 99% of players this does not matter, everyone has an internet connection nowadays, and SC2 uses very minimal bandwidth. Reconnection after a disconnect? This would not apply to ladder, as people don't want to wait around for their opponent to come back anyway (60 seconds is more than enough). It would be a really great feature for tournaments, and I would expect such a feature in HotS. As it is, it doesn't affect 99.9% of players, only pros playing in pro tournaments who are unfortunate enough to experience a disconnect.
The fact is, Blizzard is working on Heart of the Swarm, and simultaneously ensuring that the WoL competitive matchmaking system continues to function and gives players great games (map pool, matchmaking settings, balance patches). Meanwhile, a few Blizzard employees also showed up to spectate and deliver the $5,000 check at the AHGL Grand Finals.
It strikes me as absurd that people take all this and arrive at the conclusion that "Blizzard does not give a fuck about SC2", that SC2 is "a failure". I love this game. Sure, I'd love it even more if the BNET 2 UI was better, but really I couldn't care less about that. I log on every time so I can hit "Find Match", get an adrenaline rush and compete against someone of my skill level in an intense 10-15 minute battle. Playing SC2 is the most fun I've ever had playing videogames.
I agree with this...they've made it known that they hear the concerns that the community has. They definitely have listened in regards to gameplay and that's the most important feature of a game. HotS must take priority right now...unless people want a terrible expansion, it seems crazy to worry more about the improvement of social features RIGHT NOW as opposed to a game that has longevity through its content. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that everyone got so worked up about the social features lacking. That was because we had bigger concerns regarding game balance and the horrendous map pool. With patch 1.5 they're at least making an attempt to remedy yet another community gripe. Regardless, people won't be satisfied...it's how it always works.
They are trying to support the community...Blizzard certainly isn't hands off. If you want to see that, go look at any game published by EA. If you get changes from them, you pay for them. Blizzard isn't doing that with SC2 and this game, despite all of the negativity from some vocal community members has a solid base of players and a fairly well established pro scene. Find that with any other game on the market and then find me a company who continues to put in effort to ensure it stays that way. MOBAs are the only other exception at this moment and the money being pumped into their scene comes directly from the parent companies. With the market supersaturated with these games right now, that scene lacks any real cohesion. DOTA2 will fight against LoL just like FPS games fight each other. SC2 will change drastically with HotS which will bring in new blood and renew interest in the game. That is the most important thing.
As for the actual numbers that Blizzard is working with, I don't think they will make a bad business decision. It's funny how someone can say that they've turned into a greed-based company with no interest in their customers and then turn around to say that they're making a business decision that will be unsustainable. How can a company that is concerned with money to the point of near-intentional community neglect (supposedly) do something that will kill the eSports scene and stunt their income? I don't think they can/will. Of course Blizzard wants money...that is what they've always done. The $15 a year per viewer deal with Kespa has other factors that you simply don't know about. It would make no business sense to overcharge and I guarantee you that they aren't financially retarded. They crunch the real numbers...not just some hypothetical licensing fees and estimations on capital investments/salaries. The funny thing is, the OP would be infuriating if it were true. Sadly, one piece of information thrown in with hypothetical scenarios often comes out with unintentionally bias results. Talk about how terrible Blizzard is at supporting the community and how greedy they are...I personally wouldn't question their ability to make money. They know the price point for products and they understand how to bargain. Let the details work themselves out and it will probably be much different than any scenario people on a forum could come up with.
this is exactly the the apathy that I think is ruining both the community and the game itself.. blizzard doesn't give us something that we had 8 years ago like clan support or name change? oh don't worry they're a big company, they'll do it eventually.. region locking because it's "too laggy" where as iccup and valve and fish all seem to have it pretty well down? oh they're certainly doing the right thing for us. face it, blizzard doesn't communicate with us unless they're cutting features. "do you REALLY want chat channels?" tell me, how involved is the community with HOTS's development? we have nearly 7 month old information on units that've probably already been cut, why isn't development completely open so that they can atleast humor professional gamers' opinions?
their business practices are shaky at best imo, and how well sc2 will do in korea post SC2PL is still yet to be seen..
I am pretty sure somewhere pre-release it was widely regarded and accepted that region locking was more for the profits in the form of multiple purchases rather than anything else. Name changes and what not are not going to "be done eventually" as we all know the systems in place but rather they have once again realized it as a monetary opportunity for more purchases. But even with that they have loosened up and have given two name changes.
Blizzard just recently posted the HOTS dev update - they post everytime they decide a map change on the map pool, they do regular voting on the US bnet pages for these kind of things. Its as if you guys think that TL is Blizzard's page they need to have everything fed to. But you guys do realize a lot of the actual community interaction occurs on the bnet forums at a level thats more social rather than theory/updates etc. I get it you probably want them to come to your doorstep and knock on it to give you nice updates but truthfully they want their own community which is on THEIR site. You want the actual interaction with the people they PAY for this kind of info? Go visit their community they are trying to create on the forums first and you'll see the CMs etc do actually interact.
Also this is a thought shared by many devs (Including the SWTOR TOR devs who albeit did do stupid things share a common train of thought with most devs and they came out at said it during beta or at least something along these lines): "We know what we want done with the game and will listen to what we read but we do not have to take anything said as actual advice".
Now this is not the exact wording but similar. You say that the community should have a say in what occurs in the development but just by this thread you can see how bipolar the communities can be on certain subjects. With every person throwing their idea in you expect blizzard to actually take even half of their suggestions remotely serious? We have large enough of complaints in LR threads about Bronze heroes etc who don't know anything but want talk about strategy and balance like they know it all.
Also I don't get the idea of everyone insisting because BW is going down in korea SC2 can't keep going internationally. The large boom we saw at the start of SC2 was not caused solely by korean viewership. Its the foreigners that are the attractive market now with even korean leagues realizing the need for it (cooperation with mlg, gsl, ipl, dreamhack etc). It just seems like you are basing this entire subject on the vocal majority on a set forums (this) while if that was the case I would be able to say that every single game that's coming out of beta would be a catastrophic shakey failure.
On April 26 2012 08:07 Forikorder wrote: can someone please explain why interface has anything to do with it being a competitive esport?
last time i checked noone ever said "man the GSL finals were great but its too bad there wasnt a chat channel for them to talk to each other" or "its a shame they didnt have a clan tag in front of there name"
it's hard to see how many clans could have formed had there been normal support.. i can point directly to client DCs during tournaments potentially messing up the results of the event, that's the most jarring of the complaint as far as it effecting "esports" directly
aside from Lan support, which while not great certainly isnt putting a sword through the heart of e-sports, none of the other features people say are missing from SC2 is at all hurting e-sports
On April 26 2012 08:07 Forikorder wrote: can someone please explain why interface has anything to do with it being a competitive esport?
last time i checked noone ever said "man the GSL finals were great but its too bad there wasnt a chat channel for them to talk to each other" or "its a shame they didnt have a clan tag in front of there name"
it's hard to see how many clans could have formed had there been normal support.. i can point directly to client DCs during tournaments potentially messing up the results of the event, that's the most jarring of the complaint as far as it effecting "esports" directly
Clans form all the time. Just because there is no in-game "clan support" doesn't mean you can't pick a chat channel, make a website and start a clan. For example, I formed a Starcraft 2 team at Epic. How did I organize this? Well, we hav a chat channel and mainly communicate over e-mail and Skype if we're not in game. Do we care that we don't have some Epic team tag? No. Would official clan support help us in any way? Probably not.
It's like saying clans could never form in Counter-Strike without Steam groups. Steam groups are sort of useful, but no CS clan I was in ever used them for anything really aside from being able to have a group in our friends list to chat with.
There is something special about having 8 players from all over the world, Brazil, Korea, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Russia, Australia, etc. In the same game, playing 4v4, speaking the same language of RTS. Too bad for all you SC2 noobs, that is very difficult to do, not to mention the problems with 4v4 sc2 games in general. Only one recent RTS has been revolutionary in terms of gameplay and in terms of giving its players the freedom to play however they want with whomever they want. Now it is 2012 and people's computers can finally run it, Supreme Commander Forged Alliance. The last RTS. No video game company will ever have the balls to try something like that again. Even GPG pussied out and followed up with the pathetic supcom 2. You probably don't have the balls to play it though, because your opinion is given to you buy noob reviewers who have never played the game, or noob players who ran screaming that the game is dead.
On April 26 2012 11:12 TRUESCFAN wrote: There is something special about having 8 players from all over the world, Brazil, Korea, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Russia, Australia, etc. In the same game, playing 4v4, speaking the same language of RTS. Too bad for all you SC2 noobs, that is very difficult to do, not to mention the problems with 4v4 sc2 games in general. Only one recent RTS has been revolutionary in terms of gameplay and in terms of giving its players the freedom to play however they want with whomever they want. Now it is 2012 and people's computers can finally run it, Supreme Commander Forged Alliance. The last RTS. No video game company will ever have the balls to try something like that again. Even GPG pussied out and followed up with the pathetic supcom 2. You probably don't have the balls to play it though, because your opinion is given to you buy noob reviewers who have never played the game, or noob players who ran screaming that the game is dead.
ive never heard of the game, but from you jsut said about it i cant imagine it be any good if someone like you enjoyed it
On April 26 2012 11:12 TRUESCFAN wrote: There is something special about having 8 players from all over the world, Brazil, Korea, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Russia, Australia, etc.
There is something special about massive amounts of lag, and not being able to communicate b/c you don't speak the same language. I agree.
On April 26 2012 04:12 Endymion wrote: Sorry but I disagree with their model of doing things if it means that they won't support us between expansions, I would much prefer a monthly sub if it meant that they would update bnet. 20 and communicate better with TL and fans as a whole
But they are supporting us. I gave in my previous post a whole list of things they have done (map pool, matchmaking changes, AHGL sponsorship, chat channels + name changes). Something to add would be developer updates on Heart of the Swarm, which they have done to keep us in the loop about the development changes. You might want to pay a monthly subscription, but I sure as hell don't. And I think I got a huge value out of my $60 purchase, whether or not BNET 2 feels lonely. I love playing SC2, I love the super competitive nature of the ladder, and I love the fact that Day9 and Blizzard support things like the AHGL.
Just because they aren't adding major features to Battle.Net doesn't mean they don't care. Honestly, hiring more people to communicate on TL or the BNET forums would be a terrible waste of time and money, as the vast majority of people just want to complain about whatever they can think of to complain about. The battle.net forums are a wasteland filled with trolls and people suggesting the stupidest stuff ever about what they'd like to see in the game.
Basically, they did a poor job designing much of the BNET 2 UI. That said, they did a phenomenal job with designing the gameplay, balance, and matchmaking system, and produced a really well-polished game. Given their model (which you do not approve of, but which is the traditional model, and does not require monthly fees), it does not make sense to do a major overhaul of BNET 2 for WoL. Wait for the big time changes in HotS.
But whatever you do, don't try to pretend like Blizzard does not care. "But JDub -- they DONT HAVE CLAN SUPPORT!" you say. Guess what? If you want to join a clan you can. If you want to go play in a tournament, you can. Everything that people are complaining about is, in all honesty, really minor features. Shared replay watching? Oh no, you have to e-mail the replay to a friend and sync it up over Skype. LAN? Oh wait, for 99% of players this does not matter, everyone has an internet connection nowadays, and SC2 uses very minimal bandwidth. Reconnection after a disconnect? This would not apply to ladder, as people don't want to wait around for their opponent to come back anyway (60 seconds is more than enough). It would be a really great feature for tournaments, and I would expect such a feature in HotS. As it is, it doesn't affect 99.9% of players, only pros playing in pro tournaments who are unfortunate enough to experience a disconnect.
The fact is, Blizzard is working on Heart of the Swarm, and simultaneously ensuring that the WoL competitive matchmaking system continues to function and gives players great games (map pool, matchmaking settings, balance patches). Meanwhile, a few Blizzard employees also showed up to spectate and deliver the $5,000 check at the AHGL Grand Finals.
It strikes me as absurd that people take all this and arrive at the conclusion that "Blizzard does not give a fuck about SC2", that SC2 is "a failure". I love this game. Sure, I'd love it even more if the BNET 2 UI was better, but really I couldn't care less about that. I log on every time so I can hit "Find Match", get an adrenaline rush and compete against someone of my skill level in an intense 10-15 minute battle. Playing SC2 is the most fun I've ever had playing videogames.
I agree with this...they've made it known that they hear the concerns that the community has. They definitely have listened in regards to gameplay and that's the most important feature of a game. HotS must take priority right now...unless people want a terrible expansion, it seems crazy to worry more about the improvement of social features RIGHT NOW as opposed to a game that has longevity through its content. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that everyone got so worked up about the social features lacking. That was because we had bigger concerns regarding game balance and the horrendous map pool. With patch 1.5 they're at least making an attempt to remedy yet another community gripe. Regardless, people won't be satisfied...it's how it always works.
They are trying to support the community...Blizzard certainly isn't hands off. If you want to see that, go look at any game published by EA. If you get changes from them, you pay for them. Blizzard isn't doing that with SC2 and this game, despite all of the negativity from some vocal community members has a solid base of players and a fairly well established pro scene. Find that with any other game on the market and then find me a company who continues to put in effort to ensure it stays that way. MOBAs are the only other exception at this moment and the money being pumped into their scene comes directly from the parent companies. With the market supersaturated with these games right now, that scene lacks any real cohesion. DOTA2 will fight against LoL just like FPS games fight each other. SC2 will change drastically with HotS which will bring in new blood and renew interest in the game. That is the most important thing.
As for the actual numbers that Blizzard is working with, I don't think they will make a bad business decision. It's funny how someone can say that they've turned into a greed-based company with no interest in their customers and then turn around to say that they're making a business decision that will be unsustainable. How can a company that is concerned with money to the point of near-intentional community neglect (supposedly) do something that will kill the eSports scene and stunt their income? I don't think they can/will. Of course Blizzard wants money...that is what they've always done. The $15 a year per viewer deal with Kespa has other factors that you simply don't know about. It would make no business sense to overcharge and I guarantee you that they aren't financially retarded. They crunch the real numbers...not just some hypothetical licensing fees and estimations on capital investments/salaries. The funny thing is, the OP would be infuriating if it were true. Sadly, one piece of information thrown in with hypothetical scenarios often comes out with unintentionally bias results. Talk about how terrible Blizzard is at supporting the community and how greedy they are...I personally wouldn't question their ability to make money. They know the price point for products and they understand how to bargain. Let the details work themselves out and it will probably be much different than any scenario people on a forum could come up with.
this is exactly the the apathy that I think is ruining both the community and the game itself.. blizzard doesn't give us something that we had 8 years ago like clan support or name change? oh don't worry they're a big company, they'll do it eventually.. region locking because it's "too laggy" where as iccup and valve and fish all seem to have it pretty well down? oh they're certainly doing the right thing for us. face it, blizzard doesn't communicate with us unless they're cutting features. "do you REALLY want chat channels?" tell me, how involved is the community with HOTS's development? we have nearly 7 month old information on units that've probably already been cut, why isn't development completely open so that they can atleast humor professional gamers' opinions?
their business practices are shaky at best imo, and how well sc2 will do in korea post SC2PL is still yet to be seen..
Their business practices have them rolling in money. They are good at the business.
Playing between regions is fairly laggy (if you have seen US players on Korea or Koreans on US server you know this is true-remember TSL 3?). BW was a simpler game (for the computer/network), designed for use on dial-up (it worked on AOL!) so it can be run with less lag. Non-RTS games are not really comparable, since they do not have anywhere near the same number of variables (units, building energies, etc). Additionally, it is to keep people from regions with a potentially large number of pirated copies (China has monthly sub instead of single purchase) from being able to play in the same region as people who could buy the pirated copies (US, western europe). Disagree with this philosophy if you like, but it is to keep them getting money, so they can keep making more games, and, you know, being able to buy a new house or whatever.
As for development, they just gave a HOTS update about a week ago. Frequent updates are not helpful if they don't have much to say, and after the recepiton of the new HOTS units, I think they have reconsidered quite a few of them (as they announced in their update). They consult quite a bit with pro players, for example I have seen David Kim chatting up Minigun on his stream regarding balance changes. Boxer gave Kim a shoutout in an MLG game vs MMA! Clearly there is dialogue there. I understand if you think there could be more, but they talk with players. As far as dialogue with the community, it is impossible for them to talk to all of us. They talk to a select group of pros (Boxer has confirmed he is one of these), and read some of the forums, but the community is huge (over 4.5mil games sold!).
There is plenty more that Blizzard could do to improve SC2. But the idea that (a) SC2 is dead or (b) Blizzard doesn't care is a little funny, given how many maphackers they ban, how many balance changes there have been, etc. If you think you can do better, all I can say is that I hope you and Cecil go and found a company that makes an even better game. I promise if you do, I will buy it gladly =)
Shouldn't you allow for loss-carry over? Based on your spreadsheets, I am not sure you do. Are you accounting for cost-of-capital?
Anyways, without putting more effort into justifying your numbers, I am not going to believe you. For example, why is the assumption that you need a staff of 20 to finish the game a reasonable one? ...
On April 26 2012 11:12 TRUESCFAN wrote: There is something special about having 8 players from all over the world, Brazil, Korea, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Russia, Australia, etc. In the same game, playing 4v4, speaking the same language of RTS. Too bad for all you SC2 noobs, that is very difficult to do, not to mention the problems with 4v4 sc2 games in general. Only one recent RTS has been revolutionary in terms of gameplay and in terms of giving its players the freedom to play however they want with whomever they want. Now it is 2012 and people's computers can finally run it, Supreme Commander Forged Alliance. The last RTS. No video game company will ever have the balls to try something like that again. Even GPG pussied out and followed up with the pathetic supcom 2. You probably don't have the balls to play it though, because your opinion is given to you buy noob reviewers who have never played the game, or noob players who ran screaming that the game is dead.
On April 26 2012 04:12 Endymion wrote: Sorry but I disagree with their model of doing things if it means that they won't support us between expansions, I would much prefer a monthly sub if it meant that they would update bnet. 20 and communicate better with TL and fans as a whole
But they are supporting us. I gave in my previous post a whole list of things they have done (map pool, matchmaking changes, AHGL sponsorship, chat channels + name changes). Something to add would be developer updates on Heart of the Swarm, which they have done to keep us in the loop about the development changes. You might want to pay a monthly subscription, but I sure as hell don't. And I think I got a huge value out of my $60 purchase, whether or not BNET 2 feels lonely. I love playing SC2, I love the super competitive nature of the ladder, and I love the fact that Day9 and Blizzard support things like the AHGL.
Just because they aren't adding major features to Battle.Net doesn't mean they don't care. Honestly, hiring more people to communicate on TL or the BNET forums would be a terrible waste of time and money, as the vast majority of people just want to complain about whatever they can think of to complain about. The battle.net forums are a wasteland filled with trolls and people suggesting the stupidest stuff ever about what they'd like to see in the game.
Basically, they did a poor job designing much of the BNET 2 UI. That said, they did a phenomenal job with designing the gameplay, balance, and matchmaking system, and produced a really well-polished game. Given their model (which you do not approve of, but which is the traditional model, and does not require monthly fees), it does not make sense to do a major overhaul of BNET 2 for WoL. Wait for the big time changes in HotS.
But whatever you do, don't try to pretend like Blizzard does not care. "But JDub -- they DONT HAVE CLAN SUPPORT!" you say. Guess what? If you want to join a clan you can. If you want to go play in a tournament, you can. Everything that people are complaining about is, in all honesty, really minor features. Shared replay watching? Oh no, you have to e-mail the replay to a friend and sync it up over Skype. LAN? Oh wait, for 99% of players this does not matter, everyone has an internet connection nowadays, and SC2 uses very minimal bandwidth. Reconnection after a disconnect? This would not apply to ladder, as people don't want to wait around for their opponent to come back anyway (60 seconds is more than enough). It would be a really great feature for tournaments, and I would expect such a feature in HotS. As it is, it doesn't affect 99.9% of players, only pros playing in pro tournaments who are unfortunate enough to experience a disconnect.
The fact is, Blizzard is working on Heart of the Swarm, and simultaneously ensuring that the WoL competitive matchmaking system continues to function and gives players great games (map pool, matchmaking settings, balance patches). Meanwhile, a few Blizzard employees also showed up to spectate and deliver the $5,000 check at the AHGL Grand Finals.
It strikes me as absurd that people take all this and arrive at the conclusion that "Blizzard does not give a fuck about SC2", that SC2 is "a failure". I love this game. Sure, I'd love it even more if the BNET 2 UI was better, but really I couldn't care less about that. I log on every time so I can hit "Find Match", get an adrenaline rush and compete against someone of my skill level in an intense 10-15 minute battle. Playing SC2 is the most fun I've ever had playing videogames.
Nah, man. They lost touch a long time ago. All they're doing now is providing lip service.
What they are banking on is the brand. If you played any one of their games prior you're most likely to buy into any sort of product they dish out.
Gamers are notorious for their poor consumption of video games.
It's a trillion dollar industry for a reason.
The same way the Apple loyalists keep buying Apple products without seeing the bigger picture.
They will keep making their money based off their reputation. Hiring the guy who did Live to program your B.Net 2.0 wasn't the brightest idea they've had and just like us, they're losing sight of the bigger picture.
Once again, Blizzard is providing lip service to make it seem like they have everything under control when in reality they don't. We see it in the interviews others have had with them to the press.
I have no doubt in my mind one of the things they are working on for HotS is a better U.I. but once again it will be very hit and miss.
It's not like this hasn't been a problem before for many gaming companies. Community Managers really cannot do shit. Unless a bug/glitch is very, very critical. The programmers will ignore it and move forward because it isn't one of their priorities.
On April 26 2012 04:12 Endymion wrote: Sorry but I disagree with their model of doing things if it means that they won't support us between expansions, I would much prefer a monthly sub if it meant that they would update bnet. 20 and communicate better with TL and fans as a whole
But they are supporting us. I gave in my previous post a whole list of things they have done (map pool, matchmaking changes, AHGL sponsorship, chat channels + name changes). Something to add would be developer updates on Heart of the Swarm, which they have done to keep us in the loop about the development changes. You might want to pay a monthly subscription, but I sure as hell don't. And I think I got a huge value out of my $60 purchase, whether or not BNET 2 feels lonely. I love playing SC2, I love the super competitive nature of the ladder, and I love the fact that Day9 and Blizzard support things like the AHGL.
Just because they aren't adding major features to Battle.Net doesn't mean they don't care. Honestly, hiring more people to communicate on TL or the BNET forums would be a terrible waste of time and money, as the vast majority of people just want to complain about whatever they can think of to complain about. The battle.net forums are a wasteland filled with trolls and people suggesting the stupidest stuff ever about what they'd like to see in the game.
Basically, they did a poor job designing much of the BNET 2 UI. That said, they did a phenomenal job with designing the gameplay, balance, and matchmaking system, and produced a really well-polished game. Given their model (which you do not approve of, but which is the traditional model, and does not require monthly fees), it does not make sense to do a major overhaul of BNET 2 for WoL. Wait for the big time changes in HotS.
But whatever you do, don't try to pretend like Blizzard does not care. "But JDub -- they DONT HAVE CLAN SUPPORT!" you say. Guess what? If you want to join a clan you can. If you want to go play in a tournament, you can. Everything that people are complaining about is, in all honesty, really minor features. Shared replay watching? Oh no, you have to e-mail the replay to a friend and sync it up over Skype. LAN? Oh wait, for 99% of players this does not matter, everyone has an internet connection nowadays, and SC2 uses very minimal bandwidth. Reconnection after a disconnect? This would not apply to ladder, as people don't want to wait around for their opponent to come back anyway (60 seconds is more than enough). It would be a really great feature for tournaments, and I would expect such a feature in HotS. As it is, it doesn't affect 99.9% of players, only pros playing in pro tournaments who are unfortunate enough to experience a disconnect.
The fact is, Blizzard is working on Heart of the Swarm, and simultaneously ensuring that the WoL competitive matchmaking system continues to function and gives players great games (map pool, matchmaking settings, balance patches). Meanwhile, a few Blizzard employees also showed up to spectate and deliver the $5,000 check at the AHGL Grand Finals.
It strikes me as absurd that people take all this and arrive at the conclusion that "Blizzard does not give a fuck about SC2", that SC2 is "a failure". I love this game. Sure, I'd love it even more if the BNET 2 UI was better, but really I couldn't care less about that. I log on every time so I can hit "Find Match", get an adrenaline rush and compete against someone of my skill level in an intense 10-15 minute battle. Playing SC2 is the most fun I've ever had playing videogames.
Nah, man. They lost touch a long time ago. All they're doing now is providing lip service.
What they are banking on is the brand. If you played any one of their games prior you're most likely to buy into any sort of product they dish out.
Gamers are notorious for their poor consumption of video games.
It's a trillion dollar industry for a reason.
The same way the Apple loyalists keep buying Apple products without seeing the bigger picture.
They will keep making their money based off their reputation. Hiring the guy who did Live to program your B.Net 2.0 wasn't the brightest idea they've had and just like us, they're losing sight of the bigger picture.
Once again, Blizzard is providing lip service to make it seem like they have everything under control when in reality they don't. We see it in the interviews others have had with them to the press.
I have no doubt in my mind one of the things they are working on for HotS is a better U.I. but once again it will be very hit and miss.
It's not like this hasn't been a problem before for many gaming companies. Community Managers really cannot do shit. Unless a bug/glitch is very, very critical. The programmers will ignore it and move forward because it isn't one of their priorities.
The bugs and glitches are what made SC:BW fun. ;D
Oh please, we can all agree that they could have done a better job, but let's face it, there is not a single gaming company that creates products of their caliber constantly... and providing content for their products.
And besides, xbox live is amazing. The designer did a great job there.
On the other hand, why do I even bother? People will keep complaining no matter what they do, and really, being a multimillion company they need to observe and make decisions carefully so that they don't have to go back on them.
On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote: We all know that Blizzard fucked up with Starcraft 2
Are you kidding me?
SC2 is probably the best game ever created - top 5 arguably. No matter how much you dislike parts of the interface or other minor issue, it is still a pretty amazing game and Blizzard did just about everything right which the games reception and community clearly shows..
Blizzard have consistently been creating the most well designed succesful games over the past decade, so I'm really having a hard time reading on with an opening statement like that.
EPT
