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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
In the United States, dressing down is completely acceptable. Even just jeans and a white T-shirt is a fine look; but this isn't the case in many other parts of the developed world [1]. In a way, this acceptance of seemingly crappy apparel is a social freedom that has been bestowed upon us; why not take advantage of it? Consider our European or East Asian counterparts. At least in my experience, people there are primped up far more than the average lad across the pond. At least in my experience, it's a function of what is accepted as tolerable or desirable in those cultures. The range of socially acceptable appearances seem narrower and elevated compared to America. The desire to fit in is a strong and natural urge that we all have. Back when I was in Japan, I was definitely swept away by the cultural standards there, looking positively metrosexual [2]. Fast forward a few years, and I find myself back in the SF Bay Area, sporting jeans and a worn out hoodie. Here, understatement and frugality seem to be accepted as virtues. Put bluntly, it's cool to look like shit. Clothing is not only a means of self-expression, but also a means of communicating one's values and value. It should be chosen consciously, revealing or concealing information about ourselves. Of course, the Bay Area is a bit of an anomaly in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if things were a little more formal in New York; the culture there would seem to dictate that its inhabitants exude the kind of elevated status that is looked up upon. But then again, most of us don't live in New York. There's probably a happy medium to be found. Action and ReactionAs mentioned earlier, I gave great attention to my wardrobe while I was in Japan. It was definitely the first time in my life that I did so, and I am hoping that it will be the last [3]. My attitude now is, screw buying cloths, screw shelling out hundred, if not thousands of dollars for cloths that emit status. Status and wealth are things to conceal, not exude. They are a blinding influence to others, preventing us from being judged and evaludated without the accessories. In 2011, I didn't buy a single article of clothing. No suits, no shirts, no pants, no socks, no underwear [4]. We're 3 months into 2012, and it continues. I think I may as well not buy anything this year as well. No reason to do so, as long as I live here.
[1] For our purposes, let's just consider the first world countries where we have the freedom to wear virtually anything. [2] So thorough was the transformation, that I myself knew that I looked like this while in the act itself! [3] I can point to many imprudent monetary decisions during that time. [4] Partly as a windfall of my excessive purchases of 2009-2010.
Crossposted from my main blog
  
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The US was settled by outlaws, pirates, and religious fanatics. There was no monarchy or aristocracy to impose taste on the people. Democracy means everyone sinks to the lowest common denominator. We're a strongly individualist country. Which means that comfort is our primary concern with clothing. Dressing well out of respect for one's fellow man is not a concept that enters into our thinking.
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I wear cheap jeans and cheap cotton t-shirts. My main shoes are a pair of Vans that I've had for over 3 years that are half fallen apart. Comfort is key. If I'm just out and about, anybody judging me based on what I'm wearing isn't someone I feel like wasting time in a conversation with anyways.
I buy cheap brands from wal mart for all my clothes, with the exception of my shoes which I pick for comfort. I spend probably a grand total of $35-40 on day to day clothes per year. I have a few things I can wear for special occasions as warranted, but even then, I'm always the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck.
You can pull it off if you're confident, and not caring about brands is like getting a decent sized raise at work.
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I've always thought that a boss' ability to decide what you wear is an incredible power over you, while you getting to decide what you wear is power over others (or maybe just yourself? Depends on context).
Every facet of our lives is a bit of a power struggle. Outside of work there are still people you want to impress (your desired partner for example), which means you won't always be wearing exactly what is an expression of yourself, but rather what you think someone else wants. And then there is the conundrum of figuring out whether even when you have the power to wear what you want, is it an expression of yourself or just a reflection of the values you've been indoctrinated with? A lot of people who have been trained to like fashion and be very concerned about it will probably claim to have a unique preference, but from an outside view it looks very much homogenous with ideals and trends. Perhaps the very eccentric do, or perhaps there's subtlety that makes them feel unique.
Life... don't talk to me about life 
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Zurich15315 Posts
Pics of metro Haji please.
I like to dress in fitting clothes. It's an unfortunate reality that they also tend to be expensive. I definitely don't dress to show wealth, and I find it very limited that that seems to be your only angle to clothing.
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lol zatic wants a screen shot haha ; )
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On April 12 2012 01:39 jdsowa wrote:
The US was settled by outlaws, pirates, and religious fanatics. There was no monarchy or aristocracy to impose taste on the people. Democracy means everyone sinks to the lowest common denominator. We're a strongly individualist country. Which means that comfort is our primary concern with clothing. Dressing well out of respect for one's fellow man is not a concept that enters into our thinking.
If you think that europeans dress up because they show respect for their fellow man you're confused. As someone who lived there for 19 years I didn't notice anything resembling respect coming from people spotting fab clothes. I sure didn't think of that while dressing up myself either.
Imo people do that to give a boost to their perceived status in public. Some dress up because they like to look good and like that extra attention they get for it. Maybe that's why millionaires wear simple clothing everywhere they go, their status doesn't need any additional boosting. Ultimately you can argue that most of this comes from being insecure (I'm sure some psychologists took shots at that previously)
If you're still trying to argue history look into aussie culture and try to explain why they generally dress "nicer" than US citizens. Same goes for every postcommunist country in Eastern Europe.
I have my own theory on this issue. In USA the emphasis is on the intangibles - either physical attractiveness or social status/wealth. Dressing up can highlight both of these to an extent (that's why girls still show their curves off with tight jeans, small shirts and bras), but it won't matter enough to discard them as factors. By not overdoing it people don't sacrifice much comfort while keeping attention on their body (instead of the dress itself) or completely take focus off of it. There are exceptions of course even in the US.
US population is fairly obese compared to the rest of the world, but they work out the most too. I don't know any other country where gyms are packed throughout the day like they are here. Many US folks are really celf-centered and oppose every notion of being average, therefore a percentage that cannot excel at being physically attractive finds solace in rather obnoxious, in-your-face not giving a fuck dressing behavior, trying to shift emphasis to something else.
I also might disagree with saying that people here try to "look like shit" by not visibly dressing up. Not really, they often wear simple clothing but it's always clean and well maintained, often major brands too. Simple clothing gets trendy too, like North Face and uggs and these tight jeans etc. (I kind of hate all of these) but the biggest upside of it all is the feeling of comfort you get no matter what you wear. In this regard nowhere else comes even close to the US.
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On April 12 2012 02:21 ecstatica wrote:I also might disagree with saying that people here try to "look like shit" by not visibly dressing up. Not really, they often wear simple clothing but it's always clean and well maintained, often major brands too. Simple clothing gets trendy too, like North Face and uggs and these tight jeans etc. (I kind of hate all of these) but the biggest upside of all of that is the feeling of comfort you get no matter what you wear. In this regard nowhere else comes even close to the US.
i like this. there's a big difference between two main interpretations of "looking like shit"
the first is actually looking bad. it doesn't matter what level of dress you're at be it casual or formal or how much money your clothes cost but when it doesn't fit and the clothes aren't well maintained, it will look bad. actually bad.
the second is looking good while wearing super casual clothing. im talking tee, jeans and sneakers level. doesn't matter where you bought it, this can look super good if it fits and if you are wearing it in the right situation.
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On April 12 2012 01:58 zatic wrote:
Pics of metro Haji please.
I like to dress in fitting clothes. It's an unfortunate reality that they also tend to be expensive. I definitely don't dress to show wealth, and I find it very limited that that seems to be your only angle to clothing.
That is very true, I read somewhere that buying a $40 dollar jeans over a $200 dollars jeans is okay if they fit. The problem is, finding the former will take a long time.
Why do people always think that you need to dress to 'society', no, you don't dress to 'society', you dress because you want to look good, not for anybody else but yourself. Wearing a t-shirt and jeans is totally fine, James Dean has done it, Marlon Brando has done it, Patrick Swayze has done it; it's not about follow fashion trends, it's about pulling off a look. It's about style.
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I think many people are confusing simple clothing with ugly/cheap clothing. Simple is fine, as long as the clothes fit your body well (unfortunately, that's usually not the case). There is also usually merit to paying a slight premium on clothing (not talking ridiculously expensive stuff). Typically, with proper care, it will last longer than the cheap stuff, resulting in a similar cost over time. Also, if you like a piece of clothing more, then you'll be more likely to wear it rather than having a closet full of cheap clothing that doesn't fit well and you never want to wear.
It's incredibly interesting to me to see the phenomenon of looking down on tryharders. Besides personal appearance/grooming, it's evident in the classroom as well, where typically people try to stay away from the front rows, don't take notes, and laugh at people asking questions. I've definitely caught myself falling into this mindset pretty often, where I'll think "Ha! I can do just as well in this class without half the effort", and I think ecstatica's hit on a good point when he says that if people cannot excel in one area, they will try to turn their lack of effort into a virtue and belittle others to justify it ("Only people with no life study for tests"). But really, who says when I dress up it's to fit in or impress people? Sometimes I like to dress up because I like to! It's like a girl's panties -- it's not for showing other people (typically), it's just something for you to enjoy yourself.
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Jeans + Shirt + Sneakers is perfectly fine in Europe, most people i know wear that stuff to go out and basically everywhere except when you have some dresscode at work...
BUT europeans actually seem to care if their stuff actually is the correct size... As does everyone else... Just tons US guys seem to buy everything about 2 sizes to big for no reason at all...
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I have some button-up collared shirts that are at least two years old. I hardly ever spend money on my clothing, and at the same time I rarely go out in public in a t-shirt. Dressing down while being totally acceptable and noone would think twice about it, I would prefer people think twice about me 
Jeans are another story. I wear them every single day.
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I used to not give a fuck about clothes when I was overweight. I still bought tons of clothes but almost always cheap ones, and for a while only because I wouldn't fit in my previous clothes anymore.
Since I've lost a lot of weight I've been finding myself spending more and more money on clothes. Mostly because the cheap stuff, in a smaller size, just doesn't fit right. And guess what, it actually does make me feel better to have clothes that fit properly and don't wear out in a couple of uses.
I won't buy a t-shirt for 90 euro's just because it has a particular brand on it, I like to shop for whatever looks good, and hopefully is reasonably cheap, but I don't mind paying more for something that just looks good.
I don't even really care if anyone else would notice that the clothes fit better (hence actually make me look more attractive), as long as I feel better in them. But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)?
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On April 12 2012 05:24 disco wrote:
I used to not give a fuck about clothes when I was overweight. I still bought tons of clothes but almost always cheap ones, and for a while only because I wouldn't fit in my previous clothes anymore.
Since I've lost a lot of weight I've been finding myself spending more and more money on clothes. Mostly because the cheap stuff, in a smaller size, just doesn't fit right. And guess what, it actually does make me feel better to have clothes that fit properly and don't wear out in a couple of uses.
I won't buy a t-shirt for 90 euro's just because it has a particular brand on it, I like to shop for whatever looks good, and hopefully is reasonably cheap, but I don't mind paying more for something that just looks good.
I don't even really care if anyone else would notice that the clothes fit better (hence actually make me look more attractive), as long as I feel better in them. But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)?
You missed my point. By several miles. If you're confident and keep yourself reasonably well-groomed, underdressed doesn't mean you look bad. It just means you're not wearing expensive clothes. Your rather pathetic perception of worth based on clothes is exactly why I don't give a shit what your perception of me IS.
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On April 12 2012 02:45 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:58 zatic wrote:
Pics of metro Haji please.
I like to dress in fitting clothes. It's an unfortunate reality that they also tend to be expensive. I definitely don't dress to show wealth, and I find it very limited that that seems to be your only angle to clothing. That is very true, I read somewhere that buying a $40 dollar jeans over a $200 dollars jeans is okay if they fit. The problem is, finding the former will take a long time. Why do people always think that you need to dress to 'society', no, you don't dress to 'society', you dress because you want to look good, not for anybody else but yourself. Wearing a t-shirt and jeans is totally fine, James Dean has done it, Marlon Brando has done it, Patrick Swayze has done it; it's not about follow fashion trends, it's about pulling off a look. It's about style.
Yes, but why does it feel good? Because you have a concept of what you're supposed to look like, and having congruency with this concept and your actual self allows you to feel like you fit in (so to speak). Maybe you don't do it for anybody but yourself, but the reason you do it at all is because the other is there to create that concept of what you're supposed to like. You didn't wake up one day knowing well fitting jeans and a nice jacket are ideal, you gained that from seeing peers (celebrities or people you know) in such clothes. That's what people mean. The pressure comes from when you don't 'dress to society' as you put it, you don't get a job, it's harder to interact socially with others, and you're generally put at a huge disadvantage. It's an immense amount of power if you can dress shabbily and still work, and it usually means you're too valuable in other areas. AKA you're famous or something. That's why the dream of rock stars are so endearing to young people, since it represents never having to be micro managed so much by others.
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You should take all the money that you would have put into clothes and start getting tattoos...
I did that a few years back and I find that tattoos are such a sweet way to find my identity and create a new look for myself.
However, you might end up having a response to tattoos like you did to clothing...
In the end, it's all good what you choose to do. I really liked your blog and I think your ideas are unique and interesting.
Keep on keepin on
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Interestingly, I've had quite the opposite revelation this year. After wearing pretty much a worn out t-shirt/sweater/jeans/sneakers for most of my 20s, I felt that I need to "mature" and move on to the next stage, and start dressing more like an "adult". Part of this change is influenced by location (as you mentioned), as I go to grad school in the east-coast where people dress fashionably, even in my grad program. It's also cultural, and being Korean it's expected that you put an effort into how you look (see "The Modern Korean: Looks"). This herd mentality didn't really affect me until recently for various reasons.
The reason for wanting to dress well isn't really due to a desire to be perceived at a higher status, but due to just wanting to look good. It's not so much for the attention as it is for improving my self-image and feeling good about myself, shallow as it may be.
Now I'm actively purusing reddit's MFA and various fashion blogs, and have been doing quite a lot of online shopping/bargain hunting.
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On April 12 2012 07:21 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:27 JingleHell wrote:On April 12 2012 05:24 disco wrote:
I used to not give a fuck about clothes when I was overweight. I still bought tons of clothes but almost always cheap ones, and for a while only because I wouldn't fit in my previous clothes anymore.
Since I've lost a lot of weight I've been finding myself spending more and more money on clothes. Mostly because the cheap stuff, in a smaller size, just doesn't fit right. And guess what, it actually does make me feel better to have clothes that fit properly and don't wear out in a couple of uses.
I won't buy a t-shirt for 90 euro's just because it has a particular brand on it, I like to shop for whatever looks good, and hopefully is reasonably cheap, but I don't mind paying more for something that just looks good.
I don't even really care if anyone else would notice that the clothes fit better (hence actually make me look more attractive), as long as I feel better in them. But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)? You missed my point. By several miles. If you're confident and keep yourself reasonably well-groomed, underdressed doesn't mean you look bad. It just means you're not wearing expensive clothes. Your rather pathetic perception of worth based on clothes is exactly why I don't give a shit what your perception of me IS. you can be well-dressed and wear reasonably priced clothes. you can buy cheap and dress well and buy expensive and dress horribly.
I kind of agree on this. He's the one who was suggesting that what I originally said meant "looking bad" and brought price into the mix. I just wear cheap clothes because it's what I like.
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Judging people based on how they look permeates society. It has made me sad for a large part of my life. Our bodies are just the most expensive clothes we will ever wear, and don't tell the true story of who we are. The only way to learn about someone is to talk to them and get to know a little bit how they think. I've struggled actually forcing myself to not be that way, its hard work.
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I haven't lived as long (only a senior in High school), but throughout my middle school and early high school years, I had this, "Fashion? Fuck it," sort of attitude (yes, Middle schoolers care about style too, can you believe it?). Jeans, shirt, jacket, tennis shoes.
But as I get older, I found that there is some enjoyment to dressing nice. But for different reasons other than trying to "fit in." Perhaps it is just my friends, or maybe even where I live, but kids around here, everyone from the socially awkward nerd to the popular jock who plays football, place a value on "looking sharp," so to speak.
I think there is some value in "looking sharp," and not "dressing like shit." It's not to say we should judge people based on how they dressed, but I think dressing nice is something that is aesthetically pleasing to both yourself and others, in the similar vein of having a nice hair cut, being clean shaven (or a sexy looking facial hair). And I don't think there is anything wrong with being aesthetically pleasing.
I think the real issue here then lies in intentions rather than perceptions (both yourself's and society's).
For example: Do you dress nice simply to impress others? Or to "fit in?" Do you dress in expensive clothing because you are scared of society's rejection? Or do you dress nice because you like doing so, and you value looking nice?
Dress nice for yourself. Dress like shit for yourself.
I for one like dressing nice. Nothing feels better than showing up to church/wedding/formal social functions in a suit and tie.
And the fashionable style where I go to school is that hip-hop/b-boy look. Jeans, shirt, hat, funky looking shoes. So dressing nice here around here doesn't take a whole lot of money. That may have skewed by perspective. I dunno.
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On April 12 2012 07:34 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 07:21 krndandaman wrote:On April 12 2012 05:27 JingleHell wrote:On April 12 2012 05:24 disco wrote:
I used to not give a fuck about clothes when I was overweight. I still bought tons of clothes but almost always cheap ones, and for a while only because I wouldn't fit in my previous clothes anymore.
Since I've lost a lot of weight I've been finding myself spending more and more money on clothes. Mostly because the cheap stuff, in a smaller size, just doesn't fit right. And guess what, it actually does make me feel better to have clothes that fit properly and don't wear out in a couple of uses.
I won't buy a t-shirt for 90 euro's just because it has a particular brand on it, I like to shop for whatever looks good, and hopefully is reasonably cheap, but I don't mind paying more for something that just looks good.
I don't even really care if anyone else would notice that the clothes fit better (hence actually make me look more attractive), as long as I feel better in them. But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)? You missed my point. By several miles. If you're confident and keep yourself reasonably well-groomed, underdressed doesn't mean you look bad. It just means you're not wearing expensive clothes. Your rather pathetic perception of worth based on clothes is exactly why I don't give a shit what your perception of me IS. you can be well-dressed and wear reasonably priced clothes. you can buy cheap and dress well and buy expensive and dress horribly. I kind of agree on this. He's the one who was suggesting that what I originally said meant "looking bad" and brought price into the mix. I just wear cheap clothes because it's what I like.
I specifically avoided "looking bad", but apparently you assume it was implied. I also didn't bring price into the mix, I atleast didn't mean to, not in that way.
I infact don't go out to buy expensive clothes, like I said, if the quality is the same but just the brand is different I will always go for the cheaper option. I just said I prefer proper clothes over the "1 size fits all" kind.
Edit: Also guy above me basically made the point I wanted to make, but he probably explained it better.
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I could be wrong, but it seems to me clothes that look worn out or the general look of not giving a shit can only catch on in a generation that hasn't seen real poverty. When a large proportion of the population is forced to dress in rags because they cannot afford new clothes and they save money by washing them less often, then those that do afford them will not find the worn-out or "whatever" look to be appealing. If someone is wearing a jagged-edged tshirt, cut and worn-out jeans and really old sneakers, then he is making a statement in the USA (since he would only wear that if he chose to), but he is likely out of options in India.
Maybe someting similar applies to being unkempt or ungroomed in the USA. It's seen as a statement of personality, not as lack of hygiene, because how many in the USA haven't had access to running water, soap and a razer in the past 80 years? The "dirty" look has been freed and made available for use in expressing one's personality, so you see people going into expensive hair salons and asking for the scruffy look, spending hundreds of dollars on new clothes that look dusty and showing up to receive awards unshaven. Not with a proper beard, just unshaven. Armpit hair or leg hair is still taboo for women, but it seems like other than that, you can do whatever you want with your clothes and hair in the USA and everyone will still assume you showered in the past two days, since you probably did.
Making some broad generalizations, the USA saw poverty last in the Great Depression, Western Europe immediately post WWII and Eastern Europe at the collapse of the Soviet Union. So you would expect affluent people in the USA to look unkempt compared to Western Europeans and wealthier East Europeans to look the sharpest of the three (from what I see in Eastern Europe the scruffy look only caught on in youngsters in affluent regions of big cities, if at all). I don't know what East Asia is up to.
![[image loading]](http://www.fashion-incubator.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/NYT_cartoon.jpg)
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On April 12 2012 16:56 disco wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 07:34 JingleHell wrote:On April 12 2012 07:21 krndandaman wrote:On April 12 2012 05:27 JingleHell wrote:On April 12 2012 05:24 disco wrote:
I used to not give a fuck about clothes when I was overweight. I still bought tons of clothes but almost always cheap ones, and for a while only because I wouldn't fit in my previous clothes anymore.
Since I've lost a lot of weight I've been finding myself spending more and more money on clothes. Mostly because the cheap stuff, in a smaller size, just doesn't fit right. And guess what, it actually does make me feel better to have clothes that fit properly and don't wear out in a couple of uses.
I won't buy a t-shirt for 90 euro's just because it has a particular brand on it, I like to shop for whatever looks good, and hopefully is reasonably cheap, but I don't mind paying more for something that just looks good.
I don't even really care if anyone else would notice that the clothes fit better (hence actually make me look more attractive), as long as I feel better in them. But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)? You missed my point. By several miles. If you're confident and keep yourself reasonably well-groomed, underdressed doesn't mean you look bad. It just means you're not wearing expensive clothes. Your rather pathetic perception of worth based on clothes is exactly why I don't give a shit what your perception of me IS. you can be well-dressed and wear reasonably priced clothes. you can buy cheap and dress well and buy expensive and dress horribly. I kind of agree on this. He's the one who was suggesting that what I originally said meant "looking bad" and brought price into the mix. I just wear cheap clothes because it's what I like. I specifically avoided "looking bad", but apparently you assume it was implied. I also didn't bring price into the mix, I atleast didn't mean to, not in that way. I infact don't go out to buy expensive clothes, like I said, if the quality is the same but just the brand is different I will always go for the cheaper option. I just said I prefer proper clothes over the "1 size fits all" kind. Edit: Also guy above me basically made the point I wanted to make, but he probably explained it better.
Re-read what you said, and make up your mind? But seriously, wouldn't everyone take "looking good" over being "the underdressed guy who couldn't give a fuck" (© JingleHell)?
Your statement makes the two things (looking good) and confidently wearing casual clothes, mutually exclusive. If that wasn't your intent, no worries, but that IS what the language does, when used that way. Underdressed doesn't mean one size fits all, it means, roughly, wearing too casual of clothes for a venue. My clothes are anything BUT one size fits all. I'm incredibly picky about fit.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
The problem to me is that even wearing moderately priced cloths (let's say a $20 polo and $40 jeans) can convey things that perhaps I don't want to convey[1]. It's entirely possible that "looking good for yourself" has side effects of sending the wrong messages to people.
[1] Actually, this particular combination might not have such undesired effects.
On April 12 2012 01:58 zatic wrote:
Pics of metro Haji please.
Classified 
I like to dress in fitting clothes. It's an unfortunate reality that they also tend to be expensive. I definitely don't dress to show wealth, and I find it very limited that that seems to be your only angle to clothing.
I typically dress in jeans/khakis + polo/button down shirt, as I prefer a simple, clean look.
But even if my primary purpose is to look good, I've realized that I can potentially send status/wealth messages that I would perhaps like to avoid. I haven't decided one way or another, and obviously there's no "right way" for this, but I do think it's important to consider the full message we send with our appearance, not just to ourselves, but to each subset of society we interact with.
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EPT
