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Introduction or: Where is Sen?+ Show Spoiler +
Hi guys!
To my and hopefully your excitement, i created a list of the best 30 foreign players. As you may know, those lists are rly subjective. I try to look at achievements and latest achievements, but its unavoidable to get personal opinions into this.
There is no such thing as the perfect „ranking“, but i enjoy doing those, most ppl enjoy reading them, but not many ppl put rankings out there.
My ranking is purely about foreign players and i exclude asian, non korean players as well – that means you wont find chinese or taiwanese players in my ranking. The simple reason being: i dont have much information about these scenes. I obviously know that Sen, Xigua and also MacSed are great players, but its impossible to compare them to the players in EU and NA. So you could consider it a „Western Foreigner Top 30“.
I put quite some work into it and i hope i get at least some reads, since i think a ranking made by a random person should be posted as a blog and not as a thread in the general section, even though it might end up with no responses at all.
So here is the list for this month! (i try to release one every month)
  
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things like "Lists" always pretty "personal"
in fact you can count on results or how they play, but snute did WIN a big tournament so its hard to prefer happy so much above him
also lucifron 4 placed ahead of korean slayer socke ... a list is to hard to make i feel xD
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Pretty decent list in all honesty.
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1. Why is Lucifron so high? What has he done to merit such a high position over players like SjoW and White-Ra?
2. I like your list of extras (especially Illusion, who I surely would have put up into the actual Top 30 and dropped someone else down).
3. I pretty much agree with most of them, although I might have moved some of them a few spaces.
4. I definitely agree with the top three.
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United States5162 Posts
I agree with CoR. After you get past the top 3-5 people in anything the rest of the list is extremely hard to place, and almost entirely subjective deciding how much weight to apply to finishing 7th at MLG or winning some minor tournament.
That being said, I think the top 3 in undebatable and the rest of the list is very reasonable.
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I think Select and sheth should swap positions. Id put Idra above a lot of the europeans because, he plays vs koreans, these Europeans don't play vs code S koreans very often at lans. Idras IPL 4 group was insanely talented, He played Vs nestea and parting(or was it oz) at winter arena. So he should be higher.
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Keeping Idra in top 10 for no reason again I see haha.
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On April 10 2012 23:16 Mementoss wrote:
Keeping Idra in top 10 for no reason again I see haha.
Idra is always playing against top Koreans in tournaments where as the most of the Europeans he is above who might have better results are not playing against those same Koreans. (the eu players that do play against those same Koreans are high then idra)
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MajOr will be up there soon, mark my words ! :D
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SeleCT is a Korean playing for a foreigner team Dignitas, why is he here lol? nothing against SeleCT though
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Ret - overrated, but i love ret! So I think it is ok to keep him on 4 xD.
Select - I am still unsure about this, but even liquipedia says he is south korean, soo...
Lucifron - defnitly the up and coming player with enormous potential, but no real showings yet, he should be new on place 30 imo
Feast - hm, I actually don't know anything about Feast, so I was suprised to see him on that list
Socke - underrated, Godlike korean slayer. He usually tears appart the Lowerbracket of any tourney, but therefore only gets a few streamed games. Should be top 10 at least.
Grubby - overrated, He is awesome, but his play lacks and I wouldn't mind that you put him on 23 if you didn't put
Darkforce - underrated, lower than grubby? really? why? could take sockes place if socke makes top 10
ToD - underrated, If you put lucifron for potential on 15 you have to put tod on 15 aswell. This guy has some of the most ridiculus mechanics ever.
Nightend - overrated.
Anyhow, those are just small complains. I really like you list and despite the Socke underratement I would sign it any day. :D
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On April 10 2012 23:30 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 23:16 Mementoss wrote:
Keeping Idra in top 10 for no reason again I see haha. Idra is always playing against top Koreans in tournaments where as the most of the Europeans he is above who might have better results are not playing against those same Koreans. (the eu players that do play against those same Koreans are high then idra)
Well just playing koreans doesnt make of you a good player  you need tin win at least soem games. I cant remember a game in the last few months that Idra won vs a korean.
but nice list.
I would have put IdrA way more down.
Socke way more up. This MLG run was awesome. he DID beat koreans!
Edit: Just swap IdrA and Socke, and this list is MUCH better
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Select is korean man. Goddammnit, this is just like that time when people thought stephano was american (after being introduced to the scene as french).
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Pretty good list, Sase needs to be bumped up two spots however he beat thorzain no problem the last two times they played and the last time he played Ret he did lose during the Red bull lan but Ret has not been performing well at tournaments or against koreans like Sase. I think ToD needs a huge boost as well he has been in korea for awhile and its certainly shows one of the most underrated protoss out there.
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On April 10 2012 23:45 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 23:30 Josh111 wrote:On April 10 2012 23:16 Mementoss wrote:
Keeping Idra in top 10 for no reason again I see haha. Idra is always playing against top Koreans in tournaments where as the most of the Europeans he is above who might have better results are not playing against those same Koreans. (the eu players that do play against those same Koreans are high then idra) Well just playing koreans doesnt make of you a good player you need tin win at least soem games. I cant remember a game in the last few months that Idra won vs a korean. but nice list. I would have put IdrA way more down. Socke way more up. This MLG run was awesome. he DID beat koreans! Edit: Just swap IdrA and Socke, and this list is MUCH better
2-0'd MvP a few weeks ago in Ironsquid
2-1'd Min a few weeks ago in EGMC
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Obviously can't agree with everything, but overall I think it's a pretty good list. Slivko needs to be waayy higher though, he's been looking amazing these last few weeks, but other than that I more or less agree with everything.
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Had no idea Lucifron won The Gathering. WOW. I think DeMu should be higher than Select, given his results at the Winter Arena/Championship.
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I like it, kind of surprised Ret is in front of Thorzain but that's just my opinion after all.
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I'd have to agree with a lot of people, this gets very subjective very fast. I wouldn't put LucifroN so high (or even MaNa anymore for that matter). I don't see how The Gathering makes such an important determination when the best of Europe was at Las Vegas for IPL, looking at the list of names there, there wasn't very many notable names (though my knowledge of the European scene is about as far as "the best" LucifroN is way off that meter where as I'd have elfi on that meter and he's only top 50). I would be interested to see how you weigh these rankings though. Is it more points for winning a "Western" only tournament or more points for winning a global tournament loaded to the brim with Koreans?
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Great list.
I think that Axlav, Major or Haypro should take Cloud out of the top 30... that's just my thought tho.
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1) Lucifron fucking raped the gathering. SjoW lost in the early stages. SjoW in general seems quite overrated by most, watch his latest results carefully. White-Ra (who plays vs top players obviously) doesnt win anything lately, he simply has huge popularity and gets invited to everything, basically winning nothing lately.
2) about illusion and snute - id put them on 31 and 32. Illusion is solid, but i dont see him winning a bo7 against the players in the top 30 offline yet. Snute won a big tournament, yes - but he also dropped out of others quite early.
3) About Socke. Yes, he did very well at MLG. But also, he lost 3-1 to cloud in the german eps - he obviously was jet-lagged a little bit, but hes quite inconsistant in general. watch the MLG groupstages as well! he can be a great top 10 player, but he can also get raped but non-top30s regularly i feel. still, he won some ranks.
4) About ClouD: see above. Wins 3-1 vs socke just to lose vs "Krrr" at the gathering (or copenhagen games?) 2 weeks later. Quite inconsistent. MaJoR in the top 30? maybe, but he doesnt have any results tbh.
This is just my resoning behind some placements, it dosnt mean im right and youre wrong - just clarification 
its pretty hard to write those lists, but its fun for me!^^
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Idra too high, happy to see TLO getting recognized.
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Putting HuK over NaniWa is questionable. IdrA does not belong in the top 10 I would say(or even in the top 30 if it was not for his big tournament experience, his results are piss-poor this year). I would put ToD alot higher just thanks to his TvP.
Just my thoughts from skimming the list.
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So what's this list based on? Montly ranking? Or how much a certain played accomplished from the beginning of 2012 up until the given month?
Because if:
1) Idra is 4-9 which is roughly 30%. Even if he took those maps (not a whole set) vs Koreans, it's still not #8 worthy.
and if:
2) He's 19-46 which is under 30%. This doesn't need an explanation.
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watch against who idra played as well.
watch idras games.
hes still quite good and a bit "overhated" currently
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There are a few overrated people, Idra probably should be a few spots lower, Lucifron is not a top 20 foreigner based on merit sorry, and Ret at 4? Wtf? TLO is also very off and on, it's difficult for me to place him above a lot of people because of the inconsistent results.
Other than that, awesome list, this is actually pretty accurate as to who the top 30 foreigners would be.
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On April 11 2012 00:26 KalWarkov wrote:1) Lucifron fucking raped the gathering. SjoW lost in the early stages. SjoW in general seems quite overrated by most, watch his latest results carefully. White-Ra (who plays vs top players obviously) doesnt win anything lately, he simply has huge popularity and gets invited to everything, basically winning nothing lately. 2) about illusion and snute - id put them on 31 and 32. Illusion is solid, but i dont see him winning a bo7 against the players in the top 30 offline yet. Snute won a big tournament, yes - but he also dropped out of others quite early. 3) About Socke. Yes, he did very well at MLG. But also, he lost 3-1 to cloud in the german eps - he obviously was jet-lagged a little bit, but hes quite inconsistant in general. watch the MLG groupstages as well! he can be a great top 10 player, but he can also get raped but non-top30s regularly i feel. still, he won some ranks. 4) About ClouD: see above. Wins 3-1 vs socke just to lose vs "Krrr" at the gathering (or copenhagen games?) 2 weeks later. Quite inconsistent. MaJoR in the top 30? maybe, but he doesnt have any results tbh. This is just my resoning behind some placements, it dosnt mean im right and youre wrong - just clarification its pretty hard to write those lists, but its fun for me!^^
Illusion beat like 3 Koreans at IPL tho.. I definetly think he could win some BO7's against the top 30 guys.
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Idra should be a few spots lower, but then there wouldn't be anyone to replace him(he has played very tough opponents). If Lucifron is on that list, so should be Scarlett, as she beat a whole caliber stronger players. But in the larger picture, Lucifron shouldn't be there.
Demuslim is also overrated imo, no real meaningful results.
I also feel that bling should be a bit higher, or I'm overrating him, not sure.
It's kinda sad to look at that list and then compare them with Koreans. Only the top ~8 foreigners can even hope to compete with Koreans, and even then it's difficult.
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I think thats pretty acurate. The order is pretty subjective. But the top 30 is acurate IMO.
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Stephano vs huk is always a hard choice to put at the top. they havn't played eachother in a long while.
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Idra in the top ten? I don't agree with that. Idra has been in a tail spin for the last 6 months, I don't think he's won a single tournament and has been getting eliminated quite early in a lot of the major tournaments lately. Listing him as the #3 foreign zerg is a bit crazy. Right now that position belongs to Sheth. While he lost early to Kawaii Rice at the last MLG, up to that point he's been doing amazingly. He was TL's Korean killer in the IPL team League, and definetly deserves to be higher than Ret.
On April 11 2012 00:34 Hypemeup wrote:
Putting HuK over NaniWa is questionable. IdrA does not belong in the top 10 I would say(or even in the top 30 if it was not for his big tournament experience, his results are piss-poor this year). I would put ToD alot higher just thanks to his TvP.
Just my thoughts from skimming the list.
Naniwa performed amazingly at MLG Providence, but otherwise he hasn't been performing terribly well IMO. At MLG winter championship I believe HuK beat him and nocked him out of the Championship bracket. The thing is, HuK has been more or less consistant. He's always one of the highest placing foreigners at each tournament and has even had limited success in the GSL. For me, consistant winning is a better indicator of a higher calibre player than one big tournament win. Honestly, I would put HuK at #1 on this list above Stephano, who I should point out has not won two MLGs....
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Stephano not high enough imo :p also i like reading these lists and people's opinions on them, not pointless at all!
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Idra doesn't ever deserve to be there...
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On April 11 2012 01:44 TheToast wrote:Idra in the top ten? I don't agree with that. Idra has been in a tail spin for the last 6 months, I don't think he's won a single tournament and has been getting eliminated quite early in a lot of the major tournaments lately. Listing him as the #3 foreign zerg is a bit crazy. Right now that position belongs to Sheth. While he lost early to Kawaii Rice at the last MLG, up to that point he's been doing amazingly. He was TL's Korean killer in the IPL team League, and definetly deserves to be higher than Ret. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:34 Hypemeup wrote:
Putting HuK over NaniWa is questionable. IdrA does not belong in the top 10 I would say(or even in the top 30 if it was not for his big tournament experience, his results are piss-poor this year). I would put ToD alot higher just thanks to his TvP.
Just my thoughts from skimming the list.
Naniwa performed amazingly at MLG Providence, but otherwise he hasn't been performing terribly well IMO. At MLG winter championship I believe HuK beat him and nocked him out of the Championship bracket. The thing is, HuK has been more or less consistant. He's always one of the highest placing foreigners at each tournament and has even had limited success in the GSL. For me, consistant winning is a better indicator of a higher calibre player than one big tournament win. Honestly, I would put HuK at #1 on this list above Stephano, who I should point out has not won two MLGs....
put stephano in the MLG pool play 6 times in a row. see what happens
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Whoa, No Major on this list? Not even on the second list?
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On April 11 2012 02:27 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:44 TheToast wrote:Idra in the top ten? I don't agree with that. Idra has been in a tail spin for the last 6 months, I don't think he's won a single tournament and has been getting eliminated quite early in a lot of the major tournaments lately. Listing him as the #3 foreign zerg is a bit crazy. Right now that position belongs to Sheth. While he lost early to Kawaii Rice at the last MLG, up to that point he's been doing amazingly. He was TL's Korean killer in the IPL team League, and definetly deserves to be higher than Ret. On April 11 2012 00:34 Hypemeup wrote:
Putting HuK over NaniWa is questionable. IdrA does not belong in the top 10 I would say(or even in the top 30 if it was not for his big tournament experience, his results are piss-poor this year). I would put ToD alot higher just thanks to his TvP.
Just my thoughts from skimming the list.
Naniwa performed amazingly at MLG Providence, but otherwise he hasn't been performing terribly well IMO. At MLG winter championship I believe HuK beat him and nocked him out of the Championship bracket. The thing is, HuK has been more or less consistant. He's always one of the highest placing foreigners at each tournament and has even had limited success in the GSL. For me, consistant winning is a better indicator of a higher calibre player than one big tournament win. Honestly, I would put HuK at #1 on this list above Stephano, who I should point out has not won two MLGs.... put stephano in the MLG pool play 6 times in a row. see what happens
Well now that MLG is seeding people through the Spring Arenas (which stephano isn't getting seeded because of his poor placement and Winther Champs.) we may not find out.... 
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On April 11 2012 02:41 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 02:27 KalWarkov wrote:On April 11 2012 01:44 TheToast wrote:Idra in the top ten? I don't agree with that. Idra has been in a tail spin for the last 6 months, I don't think he's won a single tournament and has been getting eliminated quite early in a lot of the major tournaments lately. Listing him as the #3 foreign zerg is a bit crazy. Right now that position belongs to Sheth. While he lost early to Kawaii Rice at the last MLG, up to that point he's been doing amazingly. He was TL's Korean killer in the IPL team League, and definetly deserves to be higher than Ret. On April 11 2012 00:34 Hypemeup wrote:
Putting HuK over NaniWa is questionable. IdrA does not belong in the top 10 I would say(or even in the top 30 if it was not for his big tournament experience, his results are piss-poor this year). I would put ToD alot higher just thanks to his TvP.
Just my thoughts from skimming the list.
Naniwa performed amazingly at MLG Providence, but otherwise he hasn't been performing terribly well IMO. At MLG winter championship I believe HuK beat him and nocked him out of the Championship bracket. The thing is, HuK has been more or less consistant. He's always one of the highest placing foreigners at each tournament and has even had limited success in the GSL. For me, consistant winning is a better indicator of a higher calibre player than one big tournament win. Honestly, I would put HuK at #1 on this list above Stephano, who I should point out has not won two MLGs.... put stephano in the MLG pool play 6 times in a row. see what happens Well now that MLG is seeding people through the Spring Arenas (which stephano isn't getting seeded because of his poor placement and Winther Champs.) we may not find out....
i mean last year, not this year. he didnt play the qualifier for MLG, thats why he wasnt seeded^^
Major is in the 2nd list, he might be top 30, but he doesnt post any results tbh
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If you put Idrah so high thinking he plays koreans you have to know that he is way under 50% win-rate against them like most mediocre forigners. Even Scarlett should place higher than him lol.
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Looking at this made me laugh at how bad the foreign scene really is in regards to players
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Man, do people have crazy opinions. Not placing Idra in the top 10? Where would you place him among the other players? Who outside the top 10 is going to beat Idra in a best of 5? Who is going to give the good koreans (MMA, MKP, MC, Bomber) a run for their money in box series that is below Idra? I understand he isn't placing very high in recent events but look who he has been playing against and look at other foreigners, hes doing just fine and he is only going to get better.
Now, aside from Idra. Ret 4th? how does Ret place that high, maybe a few spots lower. I could be wrong but couldn't Titan and ToD be higher?
Ps. I'm not saying that I am some kind of expert, these are just my opinions.
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On April 11 2012 03:25 Shelke14 wrote:
Man, do people have crazy opinions. Not placing Idra in the top 10? Where would you place him among the other players? Who outside the top 10 is going to beat Idra in a best of 5? Who is going to give the good koreans (MMA, MKP, MC, Bomber) a run for their money in box series that is below Idra? I understand he isn't placing very high in recent events but look who he has been playing against and look at other foreigners, hes doing just fine and he is only going to get better.
Now, aside from Idra. Ret 4th? how does Ret place that high, maybe a few spots lower. I could be wrong but couldn't Titan and ToD be higher?
Ps. I'm not saying that I am some kind of expert, these are just my opinions.
hm ye i kind of agree with titan.
ret is 4th because there is a gap between the 3rd and 4th, and i dont know wheather thorzain ret kas or sase belong 4th. none of them has consistantly good results
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Kiwikaki not even in the next 20? And TLO is not even close to being 30th, he shouldn't even get a mention in the next 20 imo.
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On April 11 2012 03:52 Blennd wrote:
Kiwikaki not even in the next 20? And TLO is not even close to being 30th, he shouldn't even get a mention in the next 20 imo.
KiWi has had 0 results recently. This last has a lot of opinion in it and I hope the author would put the criteria he used. LucifroN way too high, with how some of these people made the list, Scarlett should be top 20 easily and she isn't even listed in top 50. Would drop IdrA out of top 10 though for sure.
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Kiwikaki was close to the following 20, just dropped out like goody. they simply dont show anything lately.
comparing scarlett to lucifron??? you must be kidding... lucifron wins everything when he gets active again. plays 1 tournament, wins against morrow, bratok (who won thorzain in the same MU at this tournament), grubby.
scarlett won terious and demuslim, thats true. but compare the games plz^^
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On April 11 2012 03:25 Shelke14 wrote:
Man, do people have crazy opinions. Not placing Idra in the top 10? Where would you place him among the other players? Who outside the top 10 is going to beat Idra in a best of 5? Who is going to give the good koreans (MMA, MKP, MC, Bomber) a run for their money in box series that is below Idra? I understand he isn't placing very high in recent events but look who he has been playing against and look at other foreigners, hes doing just fine and he is only going to get better.
Now, aside from Idra. Ret 4th? how does Ret place that high, maybe a few spots lower. I could be wrong but couldn't Titan and ToD be higher?
Ps. I'm not saying that I am some kind of expert, these are just my opinions.
It's been months since idra could compete with the likes of MMA.
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LOL Idra number 8? With his massive 30% win rate this year?
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I would say he is doing alright against him but you would state that the people lower on the rankings would do any better verus MMA?
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On April 11 2012 05:55 Dexington wrote:
LOL Idra number 8? With his massive 30% win rate this year?
Idra isn't going to Foreigner only tournments like the gathering and stuff to raise his win rate. He is constantly in tournaments where he is in groups of only koreans so his win chance isn't as high as people who go to smaller Euro turny's with lesser koreans. You can't just say " LOL 30% WINRATE LOL SO BAD" look at who he played compared to who Mana, Morrow, Ret, Grubby, darkforce, Select, and or Nerchio. I think when you actually look into who he is playing then you will understand why he is rated higher than others.
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Thanks for doing these lists, it's always a nice read and you have a good grasp on who's good at the moment since you play against most of the guys regularly. I can imagine how hard is it to rank them since almost all of the players are soo inconsistent. At the moment, I'd maybe rate Dimaga even lower, he hasn't played well recently and I'd probably put Sheth above him.
Maybe Happy a bit lower again, why did he suddenly jump up four spots? Even though he placed 4th at Copenhagen Games, his path there was pretty easy and he lost as soon as he hit top players and hasn't done a lot apart from that as well. Is he so much better than, for example, Beastyqt at the moment, who didn't even make the top 30?
I also might have put Titan a bit higher, but overall it is a pretty good list. Much better than what the "Scariest Starcraft 2 player" thread in SC2 General seems to go like at the moment.
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On April 11 2012 06:00 Shelke14 wrote:
You can't just say " LOL 30% WINRATE LOL SO BAD" look at who he played compared to who Mana, Morrow, Ret, Grubby, darkforce, Select, and or Nerchio. I think when you actually look into who he is playing then you will understand why he is rated higher than others.
You're right. However ELO ranks do account for the skill of opponents, and idrA has fallen to #117 in TLPD's international rankings. Safe to say he has fallen dramatically in recent months. If you were to base this on just the last 6 months, not only does idrA not belong in the top 10, I would argue he doesn't even belong on this list at all.
I'm an idrA fan too, but you can't deny reality.
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On April 11 2012 06:00 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:55 Dexington wrote:
LOL Idra number 8? With his massive 30% win rate this year? Idra isn't going to Foreigner only tournments like the gathering and stuff to raise his win rate. He is constantly in tournaments where he is in groups of only koreans so his win chance isn't as high as people who go to smaller Euro turny's with lesser koreans. You can't just say " LOL 30% WINRATE LOL SO BAD" look at who he played compared to who Mana, Morrow, Ret, Grubby, darkforce, Select, and or Nerchio. I think when you actually look into who he is playing then you will understand why he is rated higher than others.
I have looked. It's not like he's only lost to Koreans this year. He's lost series to Cloud, Darkforce, Kas, Feast and Real (let's be honest, he doesn't really count as a Korean). He's also lost best of one series to Thorzain, Sheth and Sase.
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On April 11 2012 07:22 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:00 Shelke14 wrote:On April 11 2012 05:55 Dexington wrote:
LOL Idra number 8? With his massive 30% win rate this year? Idra isn't going to Foreigner only tournments like the gathering and stuff to raise his win rate. He is constantly in tournaments where he is in groups of only koreans so his win chance isn't as high as people who go to smaller Euro turny's with lesser koreans. You can't just say " LOL 30% WINRATE LOL SO BAD" look at who he played compared to who Mana, Morrow, Ret, Grubby, darkforce, Select, and or Nerchio. I think when you actually look into who he is playing then you will understand why he is rated higher than others. I have looked. It's not like he's only lost to Koreans this year. He's lost series to Cloud, Darkforce, Kas, Feast and Real (let's be honest, he doesn't really count as a Korean). He's also lost best of one series to Thorzain, Sheth and Sase.
so did every other foreigner below him. Furthermore, WATCH his play. he can play rly, rly well if hes in the mood^^
but ye, if he keeps on losing, he will obviously lose ranks in the next list, just as he did this month.
Thank you all very much for your comments, the next list will approx. be released in the beinning of may
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I'd put Illusion much higher, I honestly feel like he could be the top foreigner Terran in the next few years. He's already displayed some of that skill at IPL4.
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On April 12 2012 05:42 Barburas wrote:
I'd put Illusion much higher, I honestly feel like he could be the top foreigner Terran in the next few years. He's already displayed some of that skill at IPL4.
He did well at IPL4, but one tournament is not enough to prove yourself. He beat two good Koreans, that's about it. No other notable achievements. And this is a current ranking, not a list of players who may do well in the future. He's not even close imho.
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Snute
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elfi
