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On March 22 2012 05:55 Nudelfisk wrote:some depressions are biological (bipolar f e, where you have both hypomania and depressive episodes) so there's no reason to believe op has unfinished shit he needs to deal with if he feels he has his life under control and can manage it in a way satisfactory to himself and his environment. doesn't really matter what's the cause tbh as long as you can manage.
i'm in a similar boat. i've some sort of depression, never got too clear on the exact diagnose though, although I feel it's less of an intense anger or love thing and more of a detached annoyed let-me-be-alone-because-i-can't-relate-to-you-right-now-thing. gf is more of an up-and-downer anxiety type which sort of doesn't mix well at times, especially not when her upswings time with my downswings.
i'd also advice people to seek help if they're in a similar situation. whether you want to understand your feelings from a cognitive perspective and learning to cope with them (which would be what OP probably has done) or from other perspectives which put more emphasis on trying to understand whether it comes from somewhere, it usually helps somewhat.
also, don't be too afraid of antidepressants. just don't get stuck on them for the rest of your life.
edit- i'd go with "mental illness can be biological" or "mental illness doesn't have to be determined by your environment"
Bipolar disorder in particular can be extremely damaging. I have no specific knowledge of it, so I can't speak much on the topic.
Frequent, baseless irritation can also be a sign of depression or anxiety. (The more I think on them, the less I am able to draw distinct lines separating them.) Mine just happens to manifest as anger. Some peoples' manifest as apathy.
There's nothing wrong with taking antidepressants if they help you live your life, or even with needing them to live your life. Thus far I've decided not to take them because I don't feel I'm in danger of damaging my own life in any significant way (not being able to hold down a job, becoming abusive or self-harming, etc). My girlfriend has wound up in the hospital, in recovery, and unable to hold down a job in the past. She has damaged her own life in a significant way, so she does need medication. If I find myself unable to go to work in the morning, or unable to maintain relationships with anybody (I am barely on the healthy side of this now, but I'm not in the red yet) I will reconsider this stance.
I'm really more going for helping people to understand that what they feel may be the result of a mental illness, not examining the source of said mental illness. You are correct though, that they are frequently chemical, and not necessarily a result of your environment. And it's important to point out, lest you trigger a comment like "Well, what do YOU have to be depressed about?"
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Thanks for the post.
I've been trying to treat myself to similar problems after a break up where I lost myself. Reading your view and story was a lot easier than refinding my own.
When I took cognitive beahavioral therapy my therapist always compared my emotions to it's heritage in stone age men and how these emotions genetically used to be the "survival of the fittest" ones but today aint. For example, he who woke up at night to any kind of noise probably survived longer than the unworried deepsleeper stone-ager.
Anyway. reading this kind of brought me closer to diffitcult emotions that my mind's been trying to dodge.
So thank you.
I also want to encourage honesty in relationships. It's what lost me my relationship and myself. No matter how much the truth can hurt, dodging it for the sake of a relationship will only kill it slower.
There's something else from your text I'd like to
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On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with.
I always get a little ticked when people seem to have pity for those who 'don't want help.' I don't know if it's what you're expressing, but I know that a lot of people reject a person's preference for independence as invalid when deal with such problems. TBH I only read the first 5-6 paragraphs of this OP before thinking he just doesn't have a clue. People talk so confidently about it, but we're individuals and life is not that simple. Even just the example of blaming your feelings on your partner is not going to be a common experience. I think most people with issues are pretty aware that they don't exactly share a correlation with what is happening in the relationship, unless they are really, really dim. Isn't that the whole horrible thing about depression? When you realise that whether you're with your partner or not, you feelings don't improve, making the relationship meaningless (at least on the level of your happiness)? That it doesn't matter what you do?
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8748 Posts
On March 22 2012 05:45 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 22 2012 04:43 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with. My goal isn't to fix people's problems. It's to show people that their problems are not existential or magical, but real illnesses that can be treated. That's why I said "get help," not, "let me help you." What do you mean by 'existential' here? I don't get it. Poor choice of words, thanks for pointing that out. The wordy intended meaning was that negative feelings are not necessarily a result of a specific problem with the things or people that are in your life, or a general dissatisfaction with your life, but from a specific mental illness. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to succinctly word this, I'd appreciate it.
I might say that some negative feelings are independent of environment, even though they interact with their environment and sometimes give the illusion of having sprung from their environment.
Existential is pretty close to the right word for describing this but you were using it to contrast rather than compare.
You might say "their problems are not philosophical or magical." Existentialism (and its adjective 'existential') is kind of anti-philosophy, beginning discussion with basic existence and things that extend from existence rather than using abstract concepts as foundations.
It may be difficult to take existentialism too far in your case because I believe a lot of existentialists believe that feelings of depression are natural to a clear-sighted person. But this is a universal thing (according to them). Individual experiences don't really matter here. So specific environments don't matter. That is, the characteristics that every environment shares are sufficient to cause some feelings of depression. So while you may say that negative feelings originate from within, arguing against them originating from a bad environment, existentialists might broaden "environment" to the maximum possible amount, to the point where you say "if a person exists, she must have something outside of her that isn't a part of her, and the interaction between her and everything that isn't her naturally causes despair."
The line between what's coming from within or from without disappears whenever the without automatically causes something. Anything that exists in an environment has an attribute because it exists in an environment, but that attribute wouldn't exist if there was nothing within the environment. And the attribute wouldn't exist if the thing within the environment didn't have an environment (that is, if it was the only thing that exists). So is that attribute inherent to the thing that exists? Or is the environment causing this attribute's existence in the thing that exists? It doesn't really matter.
So you've just gotta make the distinction between feeling despair the natural way and feeling despair because of some malfunction in the brain. Arguably the best frame of mind for tackling despair, or rather the best frame of one's whole existence, is the same whether the despair is existential despair or despair as a result of a flawed brain. So you could get back on board with the existentialists when it comes to tackling the despair. And so many depressed people enjoy existentialist literature!
To sum up:
Three origins of despair: (1)malfunction in brain, (2)shitty specific environment, (3)natural reaction a person has when truly aware of their own existence within their (broadest possibly interpreted) environment
Afaik, you agree with (1), disagree with (2), and don't address (3). I'm not sure to what extent existentialists address (1) and (2) but they are quite a varied bunch so you could probably find all kinds of responses. But they should mostly agree on (3).
Non-overlapping responses to despair: (a)frame of mind, (b)modern medical care. Well, if you include therapy in medical care, that certainly overlaps with frame of mind. But if you are not attempting to address physical problems with the brain with medication (because you think nothing is wrong with your brain except your conscious thought patterns) then you can choose to subscribe to a million different schools of thought on how to "get better" that all overlap with each other. Even if someone chose to "think like an existentialist" she would have to choose a particular author, because like I said they are quite a varied bunch!
ps: If someone who reads this can correct me, please do. It's been a while.
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On March 22 2012 06:00 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:55 Nudelfisk wrote:some depressions are biological (bipolar f e, where you have both hypomania and depressive episodes) so there's no reason to believe op has unfinished shit he needs to deal with if he feels he has his life under control and can manage it in a way satisfactory to himself and his environment. doesn't really matter what's the cause tbh as long as you can manage.
i'm in a similar boat. i've some sort of depression, never got too clear on the exact diagnose though, although I feel it's less of an intense anger or love thing and more of a detached annoyed let-me-be-alone-because-i-can't-relate-to-you-right-now-thing. gf is more of an up-and-downer anxiety type which sort of doesn't mix well at times, especially not when her upswings time with my downswings.
i'd also advice people to seek help if they're in a similar situation. whether you want to understand your feelings from a cognitive perspective and learning to cope with them (which would be what OP probably has done) or from other perspectives which put more emphasis on trying to understand whether it comes from somewhere, it usually helps somewhat.
also, don't be too afraid of antidepressants. just don't get stuck on them for the rest of your life.
edit- i'd go with "mental illness can be biological" or "mental illness doesn't have to be determined by your environment" Bipolar disorder in particular can be extremely damaging. I have no specific knowledge of it, so I can't speak much on the topic. Frequent, baseless irritation can also be a sign of depression or anxiety. (The more I think on them, the less I am able to draw distinct lines separating them.) Mine just happens to manifest as anger. Some peoples' manifest as apathy. There's nothing wrong with taking antidepressants if they help you live your life, or even with needing them to live your life. Thus far I've decided not to take them because I don't feel I'm in danger of damaging my own life in any significant way (not being able to hold down a job, becoming abusive or self-harming, etc). My girlfriend has wound up in the hospital, in recovery, and unable to hold down a job in the past. She has damaged her own life in a significant way, so she does need medication. If I find myself unable to go to work in the morning, or unable to maintain relationships with anybody (I am barely on the healthy side of this now, but I'm not in the red yet) I will reconsider this stance. I'm really more going for helping people to understand that what they feel may be the result of a mental illness, not examining the source of said mental illness. You are correct though, that they are frequently chemical, and not necessarily a result of your environment. And it's important to point out, lest you trigger a comment like "Well, what do YOU have to be depressed about?"
ya basically bipolar disorder depending on what type you have means that every now and then you'll have to opposite of a depressive episode - type 1 will go manic, which basically means crazily overactive, illogical etc, type 2 will be hypomanic which is more like extremely confident, happy, productive, energized, horny. my ex was bipolar, it was really hard to know what would come next for the both of us. never had a dull moment though. lol. sounds terrible but yeah, there you have it.
i think that's a healthy stance on medication though. ideally you would not want to take them as your brain gets hooked on them which sort of makes it easier to have relapses as the brain gets used to the crutch and doesn't learn how to recover on it's own. plus a lot of them have side-effects that are either nasty or untested. i had to take them because a lot of things sort of crashed down on me and i just couldn't sleep at all anymore. nobody really noticed though.
Anxiety generally has a direction. Like, I get anxious when someone is pacing the room, so I get annoyed and tell them to sit down. Anxiety is also towards some future event. It's like nervousness but interpreted differently in your mind. Depression as I've understood it is more of a blanketing of your positive emotions. Like, a moderately depressed person and a "healthy" person will report the same number of negative events but the depressed person won't report positive ones to the same degree. Hopelessness, helplessness, meaninglessness...
I'm sorry to hear about your gf, man that's hard. It's like... yeah. =(
Yeah I understood what you were going for. In my mind "biological" means that there doesn't have to be a cause except for that your brain decided to fuck you up one day. If you want to spread the word, you might want to mention what type of therapy you went to as generally (at least here) they will just stick you to whoever is available.
Personally I believe it's more often than not a combination of biology and environment, but that the cause is either super relevant or not at all depending on what you need. People are largely stuck with the "bearded man with the half-couch" as the sole image of therapists though so yeah, good on you =)
I think the entire thing about "why are YOU depressed" is so damn annoying. I don't get it too much though, my friends feel sorry for me which feels worse in some ways. But yeah there's a general stigma regarding mental illness, like, most murders are committed within a marriage but most of the murders written about are commited by the minority of schizophreniacs who are actually violent.
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On March 22 2012 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:45 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 05:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 22 2012 04:43 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with. My goal isn't to fix people's problems. It's to show people that their problems are not existential or magical, but real illnesses that can be treated. That's why I said "get help," not, "let me help you." What do you mean by 'existential' here? I don't get it. Poor choice of words, thanks for pointing that out. The wordy intended meaning was that negative feelings are not necessarily a result of a specific problem with the things or people that are in your life, or a general dissatisfaction with your life, but from a specific mental illness. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to succinctly word this, I'd appreciate it. I might say that some negative feelings are independent of environment, even though they interact with their environment and sometimes give the illusion of having sprung from their environment. Existential is pretty close to the right word for describing this but you were using it to contrast rather than compare.
I understand what you mean, now. Yes, the meaning I was going for was that when you are depressed, your feelings can be independent of your environment, which is an important distinction to make in order to properly understand, process, and deal with them. It's just as important to be able to say "my feelings come from [as you put it] a flawed brain," as it is to be able to say "my feelings come from this specific issue."
To sum up:
Three origins of despair: (1)malfunction in brain, (2)shitty specific environment, (3)natural reaction a person has when truly aware of their own existence within their (broadest possibly interpreted) environment
Afaik, you agree with (1), disagree with (2), and don't address (3). I'm not sure to what extent existentialists address (1) and (2) but they are quite a varied bunch so you could probably find all kinds of responses. But they should mostly agree on (3).
I actually do agree with (2), but make the distinction that it is not necessarily the cause of a depressed person's despair, whereas in a non-depressed person, the union of (2) and (3) should make up the entire set of causes of despair.
Non-overlapping responses to despair: (a)frame of mind, (b)modern medical care. Well, if you include therapy in medical care, that certainly overlaps with frame of mind. But if you are not attempting to address physical problems with the brain with medication (because you think nothing is wrong with your brain except your conscious thought patterns) then you can choose to subscribe to a million different schools of thought on how to "get better" that all overlap with each other. Even if someone chose to "think like an existentialist" she would have to choose a particular author, because like I said they are quite a varied bunch!
ps: If someone who reads this can correct me, please do. It's been a while.
I regard therapy as an overlap of A and B. I understand that my brain is malfunctioning, but am attempting to address the physical problem with a frame-of-mind solution. I'm acutely aware of the fact that it's something I can do due to luck and privilege - namely, that my depression is not particularly severe. I can make no recommendations to anybody else on the matter, as I'm not a trained psychologist. (The only advice I can give responsibly is "get help if you feel you might need it.")
I think I will look into existentialism, though (I have never addressed philosophy or existentialism in my schooling or personal studies). It sounds interesting!
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On March 22 2012 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:45 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 05:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 22 2012 04:43 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with. My goal isn't to fix people's problems. It's to show people that their problems are not existential or magical, but real illnesses that can be treated. That's why I said "get help," not, "let me help you." What do you mean by 'existential' here? I don't get it. Poor choice of words, thanks for pointing that out. The wordy intended meaning was that negative feelings are not necessarily a result of a specific problem with the things or people that are in your life, or a general dissatisfaction with your life, but from a specific mental illness. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to succinctly word this, I'd appreciate it. I might say that some negative feelings are independent of environment, even though they interact with their environment and sometimes give the illusion of having sprung from their environment. Existential is pretty close to the right word for describing this but you were using it to contrast rather than compare. You might say "their problems are not philosophical or magical." Existentialism (and its adjective 'existential') is kind of anti-philosophy, beginning discussion with basic existence and things that extend from existence rather than using abstract concepts as foundations. It may be difficult to take existentialism too far in your case because I believe a lot of existentialists believe that feelings of depression are natural to a clear-sighted person. But this is a universal thing (according to them). Individual experiences don't really matter here. So specific environments don't matter. That is, the characteristics that every environment shares are sufficient to cause some feelings of depression. So while you may say that negative feelings originate from within, arguing against them originating from a bad environment, existentialists might broaden "environment" to the maximum possible amount, to the point where you say "if a person exists, she must have something outside of her that isn't a part of her, and the interaction between her and everything that isn't her naturally causes despair." The line between what's coming from within or from without disappears whenever the without automatically causes something. Anything that exists in an environment has an attribute because it exists in an environment, but that attribute wouldn't exist if there was nothing within the environment. And the attribute wouldn't exist if the thing within the environment didn't have an environment (that is, if it was the only thing that exists). So is that attribute inherent to the thing that exists? Or is the environment causing this attribute's existence in the thing that exists? It doesn't really matter. So you've just gotta make the distinction between feeling despair the natural way and feeling despair because of some malfunction in the brain. Arguably the best frame of mind for tackling despair, or rather the best frame of one's whole existence, is the same whether the despair is existential despair or despair as a result of a flawed brain. So you could get back on board with the existentialists when it comes to tackling the despair. And so many depressed people enjoy existentialist literature! To sum up: Three origins of despair: (1)malfunction in brain, (2)shitty specific environment, (3)natural reaction a person has when truly aware of their own existence within their (broadest possibly interpreted) environment Afaik, you agree with (1), disagree with (2), and don't address (3). I'm not sure to what extent existentialists address (1) and (2) but they are quite a varied bunch so you could probably find all kinds of responses. But they should mostly agree on (3). Non-overlapping responses to despair: (a)frame of mind, (b)modern medical care. Well, if you include therapy in medical care, that certainly overlaps with frame of mind. But if you are not attempting to address physical problems with the brain with medication (because you think nothing is wrong with your brain except your conscious thought patterns) then you can choose to subscribe to a million different schools of thought on how to "get better" that all overlap with each other. Even if someone chose to "think like an existentialist" she would have to choose a particular author, because like I said they are quite a varied bunch! ps: If someone who reads this can correct me, please do. It's been a while.
haha yeah, existentialists are awesome. so hard to read though. iirc depression to them is a sign that you're a healthy individual in a sick world. anxiety means that you're thinking, because
1) if you didn't have anxiety, you would be content,
2) being content means that you don't realize what you could potentially be,
3) which means that you never make truly conscious choices in your life,
4) which means that you are guided by the masses,
5) which means that you will never be in the world, you'll just exist.
And yeah, part of despair/depression is b/c of the social constructions surrounding it. Based upon cultural upbringing, others unconsciously treat you a certain way if they know you have a diagnose, you think about yourself a certain way and thus it gets worse. I believe this is also a existentialist thought, although I'm having trouble separating it from social constructionism or Foucault atm lol. Yeah I don't remember it too well either.
The classic existentialists didn't talk about mental illness though as psychology didn't really exist back then. Existential psychologists came later, saying something like anxiety is healthy, as long as you can manage your life. A healthy dose of anxiety means you'll live a fuller life. Existential therapy seems shit to go through since it seeks to increase your anxiety without really giving you tools to handle it in order to make you endure it in your own way. It's also more focused on the therapy itself being a relation.
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I have/had (not as bad now) severe ADHD, and a side-effect of the medication I had to take was that it causes depression. So I had somewhat severe depression that was managed with medication, as well. I no longer have any big problems with depression now that I'm not on the ADHD medication. However, I have had to deal with spurts of both depression and anxiety since I've stopped the medication. I've been to psychiatrists, and they just made me angry because they weren't helping me. So the way I deal with it is that I just think about how pointless it is to feel that way. Being depressed or anxious isn't going to solve any of my problems. I understand this isn't going to work for everyone, but give it a try.
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Does tiredness have any effect on your depression?
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On March 22 2012 07:32 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Does tiredness have any effect on your depression?
It actually exacerbates my anxiety. Days when I haven't slept well or have been working myself ragged are days when I tend to have to go back and check to make sure everything at my apartment is STILL okay, even though it clearly was the last time I checked it. As an extreme example, I went to the boundary waters this summer, 9 days of canoeing, and on the 3rd day (exhausted) became convinced that nobody at my job knew where I'd gone and I was going to wind up unemployed and unemployable. I spent the rest of the trip in the middle of basically a constant panic attack.
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On March 22 2012 04:43 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with. My goal isn't to fix people's problems. It's to show people that their problems are not existential or magical, but real illnesses that can be treated. That's why I said "get help," not, "let me help you." If I didn't indicate that my mood swings were explicitly a result of my depression, I apologize. That's what it is. I'm quite aware of it. But reading through my post, I feel like it was fairly clear - I've added a line to say it outright, though. It kind of sounds like you didn't read the post.
When you say Get help like that you got to keep in mind some people will see it differently. When you do go to those group sessions, therapy etc. it always comes from the individual or else its pointless in being there. Not only that but you might not like the group or the health care provider to begin with. It's one thing to acknowledge that you need help and will go to such things. It's another thing to actively participate and get yourself on the road to recovery.
Of course your mood swings are part of sickness. I even said the mood swings are symptoms of the problem. From the sound of it we're on totally different wavelengths.
I did read your post. This is the second time within the last two days that someone questioned my reading ability (Mr. Bitter's house comes to mind) and the thing is I read both threads thoroughly. Something many people don't do.
However, I am not one of those people so I don't need to be lectured. Perhaps I'm just finger pointing and the internet is the worst place to try and motivate people to get help, lmao. I'm way too confrontational for this shit.
On March 22 2012 05:55 Nudelfisk wrote:
some depressions are biological (bipolar f e, where you have both hypomania and depressive episodes) so there's no reason to believe op has unfinished shit he needs to deal with if he feels he has his life under control and can manage it in a way satisfactory to himself and his environment. doesn't really matter what's the cause tbh as long as you can manage.
i'm in a similar boat. i've some sort of depression, never got too clear on the exact diagnose though, although I feel it's less of an intense anger or love thing and more of a detached annoyed let-me-be-alone-because-i-can't-relate-to-you-right-now-thing. gf is more of an up-and-downer anxiety type which sort of doesn't mix well at times, especially not when her upswings time with my downswings.
i'd also advice people to seek help if they're in a similar situation. whether you want to understand your feelings from a cognitive perspective and learning to cope with them (which would be what OP probably has done) or from other perspectives which put more emphasis on trying to understand whether it comes from somewhere, it usually helps somewhat.
also, don't be too afraid of antidepressants. just don't get stuck on them for the rest of your life.
edit- i'd go with "mental illness can be biological" or "mental illness doesn't have to be determined by your environment"
Depends on what he is diagnosed with. When I speak I speak from personal experiences only.
*
There was something else I wanted to say, but I cannot remember it. I'll come back if I remember. :/
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On March 22 2012 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:45 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 05:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 22 2012 04:43 Vega62a wrote:On March 22 2012 04:27 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot help those who don't want help. You can encourage and support them, but it always comes down to them in the end.
P.S. about your mood swings (as I have quite a few of them myself), its only a symptom to the problem. Not the problem itself. Sounds like you have a lot of unfinished bullshit to deal with. My goal isn't to fix people's problems. It's to show people that their problems are not existential or magical, but real illnesses that can be treated. That's why I said "get help," not, "let me help you." What do you mean by 'existential' here? I don't get it. Poor choice of words, thanks for pointing that out. The wordy intended meaning was that negative feelings are not necessarily a result of a specific problem with the things or people that are in your life, or a general dissatisfaction with your life, but from a specific mental illness. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to succinctly word this, I'd appreciate it. I might say that some negative feelings are independent of environment, even though they interact with their environment and sometimes give the illusion of having sprung from their environment. Existential is pretty close to the right word for describing this but you were using it to contrast rather than compare. You might say "their problems are not philosophical or magical." Existentialism (and its adjective 'existential') is kind of anti-philosophy, beginning discussion with basic existence and things that extend from existence rather than using abstract concepts as foundations. It may be difficult to take existentialism too far in your case because I believe a lot of existentialists believe that feelings of depression are natural to a clear-sighted person. But this is a universal thing (according to them). Individual experiences don't really matter here. So specific environments don't matter. That is, the characteristics that every environment shares are sufficient to cause some feelings of depression. So while you may say that negative feelings originate from within, arguing against them originating from a bad environment, existentialists might broaden "environment" to the maximum possible amount, to the point where you say "if a person exists, she must have something outside of her that isn't a part of her, and the interaction between her and everything that isn't her naturally causes despair." The line between what's coming from within or from without disappears whenever the without automatically causes something. Anything that exists in an environment has an attribute because it exists in an environment, but that attribute wouldn't exist if there was nothing within the environment. And the attribute wouldn't exist if the thing within the environment didn't have an environment (that is, if it was the only thing that exists). So is that attribute inherent to the thing that exists? Or is the environment causing this attribute's existence in the thing that exists? It doesn't really matter. So you've just gotta make the distinction between feeling despair the natural way and feeling despair because of some malfunction in the brain. Arguably the best frame of mind for tackling despair, or rather the best frame of one's whole existence, is the same whether the despair is existential despair or despair as a result of a flawed brain. So you could get back on board with the existentialists when it comes to tackling the despair. And so many depressed people enjoy existentialist literature! To sum up: Three origins of despair: (1)malfunction in brain, (2)shitty specific environment, (3)natural reaction a person has when truly aware of their own existence within their (broadest possibly interpreted) environment Afaik, you agree with (1), disagree with (2), and don't address (3). I'm not sure to what extent existentialists address (1) and (2) but they are quite a varied bunch so you could probably find all kinds of responses. But they should mostly agree on (3). Non-overlapping responses to despair: (a)frame of mind, (b)modern medical care. Well, if you include therapy in medical care, that certainly overlaps with frame of mind. But if you are not attempting to address physical problems with the brain with medication (because you think nothing is wrong with your brain except your conscious thought patterns) then you can choose to subscribe to a million different schools of thought on how to "get better" that all overlap with each other. Even if someone chose to "think like an existentialist" she would have to choose a particular author, because like I said they are quite a varied bunch! ps: If someone who reads this can correct me, please do. It's been a while.
Wow, good job Tyler. Tomorrow when my Ritalin is working I will do a little proofread of your post although from what I can get you were pretty close to the marker.
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I have Major depression, psychotic depression, severe GAD and social anxiety, psychosis (basically paranoid schizophrenia but i'm only 16 so they can't give a 100% diagnoses), manic and hypo-manic episodes, I was hospitalized for 3 weeks for trying to drown myself (got caught), I also have ADHD (Over 7 psychiatrists have diagnosed) and a chance of Bi-Polar 1 as well as OCD (I wet my hands 60-90 times a day)
To expand on the psychosis. I sometimes will lose track of reality because of the voices I hear and the things I see, and I get really paranoid and will close all of the blinds and windows in my house and lock everything several times thinking that the government is out to get me and that they want to kidnap and kill me. I've been handling the psychotic episodes all right although I am working through different meds to try and find one that works. Although I almost always hear voices talking to me and I am paranoid about doing anything outside my house, and I sometimes see weird shadows and small animals running around.
Glad to see someone spreading the word about mental health, and lots of false information in this thread for certain posters.
If anyone has any questions, I would love to answer them.
Meds I'm on...
Methylphenidate/Ritalin ER:72mg (max dose)
Sertaline/Zoloft: 200mg (max dose)
Clonazepam/Klonopin: 4-5mg a day
Mirtazapine/Remeron: 15mg
Meds i'm supposed to be on but don't take...
300mg Acetaminophen- 30mg codiene - 15mg caffeine/Tylenol 3
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I've struggled with depression for a little while now. Some thoughts on my experience with it for the ~7 months I've acknowledged it as depression. I don't really have any solutions because I'm still struggling with it.
1. I think mine comes from an inferiority complex, esp. feelings of inferiority I have w/r/t my dad and a collection of other people in my life. Sort of a problem I think lots of members of my generation and social class will have to deal with - why does anything we do matter if our parents did it, and did it better? May seem irrational but that sort of irrationality goes hand in hand with depression :/. All of that results in some self criticism issues. I don't like calling them being self conscious, because I'm not just conscious of my self, but I'm constantly hating on it. Like whenever I think for a moment someone may like me romantically or something my mind just goes: Like you? LOL have you looked in a mirror recently?
I also get panic attacks when I realize my mortality, which sounds really melodramatic but generally it goes like this:
My mind: Jordan, one day you are going to die.
Me: Haha I know, sucks doesn't it.
My mind: No, you are actually going to die. You won't be able to think or experience or anything.
Me: Oh god oh jesus christ fuck fuck fuck
then I wake up in cold sweats and have to read a book until I pass out from exhaustion.
2. Therapy is helpful but not a cure (at least not yet for me). I hoped I would talk with my therapist for a few months, we would preform some Freudian magic and I'd drive to Stanford to go see about a girl. Not yet, at least.
3. Music/books/videogames have worked for me as good distractions. Sometimes what's important for me at least is just to survive, not to confront my issues. All three of the above help me escape (depending on what type of music or book, they can also help confront) and calm down.
I don't know beyond that. It's important to keep reminding yourself of happy things when happy things happen. I can't offer any really good advice because I'm sort of stuck in the maze of shit too.
David Foster Wallace has a good essay from when he went to Amherst on depression. Elliott Smith, Radiohead and Nick Drake music, DFW, Vonnegut, Faulkner (the Quentin part of the Sound and the Fury in particular) and some other fantasy books which are just escapist and some poetry are helpful too.
edit: I also have moments that I realize this is who I actually am, not something else which is a pretty weird out of body moment which I think is a symptom of all this, but am not sure.
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On March 22 2012 12:37 Oreo7 wrote:
I've struggled with depression for a little while now. Some thoughts on my experience with it for the ~7 months I've acknowledged it as depression. I don't really have any solutions because I'm still struggling with it.
1. I think mine comes from an inferiority complex, esp. feelings of inferiority I have w/r/t my dad and a collection of other people in my life. Sort of a problem I think lots of members of my generation and social class will have to deal with - why does anything we do matter if our parents did it, and did it better? May seem irrational but that sort of irrationality goes hand in hand with depression :/. All of that results in some self criticism issues. I don't like calling them being self conscious, because I'm not just conscious of my self, but I'm constantly hating on it. Like whenever I think for a moment someone may like me romantically or something my mind just goes: Like you? LOL have you looked in a mirror recently?
I also get panic attacks when I realize my mortality, which sounds really melodramatic but generally it goes like this:
My mind: Jordan, one day you are going to die.
Me: Haha I know, sucks doesn't it.
My mind: No, you are actually going to die. You won't be able to think or experience or anything.
Me: Oh god oh jesus christ fuck fuck fuck
then I wake up in cold sweats and have to read a book until I pass out from exhaustion.
2. Therapy is helpful but not a cure (at least not yet for me). I hoped I would talk with my therapist for a few months, we would preform some Freudian magic and I'd drive to Stanford to go see about a girl. Not yet, at least.
3. Music/books/videogames have worked for me as good distractions. Sometimes what's important for me at least is just to survive, not to confront my issues. All three of the above help me escape (depending on what type of music or book, they can also help confront) and calm down.
I don't know beyond that. It's important to keep reminding yourself of happy things when happy things happen. I can't offer any really good advice because I'm sort of stuck in the maze of shit too.
David Foster Wallace has a good essay from when he went to Amherst on depression. Elliott Smith, Radiohead and Nick Drake music, DFW, Vonnegut, Faulkner (the Quentin part of the Sound and the Fury in particular) and some other fantasy books which are just escapist and some poetry are helpful too.
edit: I also have moments that I realize this is who I actually am, not something else which is a pretty weird out of body moment which I think is a symptom of all this, but am not sure.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like Nony's definition of existential despair applies pretty solidly here.
Do you feel like your depression is entirely brought on by your circumstance? Or has it been attributed to a chemical imbalance?
I understand entirely about your self-image issues. It's plagued me for years as well.
Therapy is rarely a magic cure, sadly =/ for me it's always been a place where I can go and straighten my thoughts out. My therapist has given me tools for understanding what my emotions mean, but mostly when I've had moments of Freudian magic it's come from my own head. But it's been almost half a year and I'm certainly still depressed, still anxious. Just less poisonous for it.
There isn't really a lot of advice that should be given in this blog - none of us (well, most of us; this is TL) are licensed psychiatrists or psychologists, and bad advice on mental health can be dangerous. The only advice we can really give is to get help, whatever that help may be. Bringing up the more irrational thoughts (like my poor self-esteem) has helped me get a handle, at least intellectually, on the ways in which they are fallacy. Internalizing that to the point where you don't feel it takes much longer.
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Maybe. I think it was certainly triggered by some existential angst over whether anything I do can mean anything. But I think it was rooted in a deep insecurity caused by my over glorifying my dad and feeling insignificant by comparison, and then feeling everything I do is insignificant or unimportant by comparison. I don't blame my dad. It's just a bummer.
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hey.
i suggest to try erich fromm.
"The Art of Loving" & "To Have or To Be?"
if you wanna get to know the reasons (and solutions) for all the previous stated problems.
if ya hestitating, then youtube him and listen to what he has to say.
those books should be available in all languages a TL user could speak 
to say the least, you can somehow be happy to feel some kind of mental struggle in this fucked up society. its natural.
greetz from leipzig
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On March 22 2012 09:27 MaddogStarCraft wrote:
I have Major depression, psychotic depression, severe GAD and social anxiety, psychosis (basically paranoid schizophrenia but i'm only 16 so they can't give a 100% diagnoses), manic and hypo-manic episodes, I was hospitalized for 3 weeks for trying to drown myself (got caught), I also have ADHD (Over 7 psychiatrists have diagnosed) and a chance of Bi-Polar 1 as well as OCD (I wet my hands 60-90 times a day)
To expand on the psychosis. I sometimes will lose track of reality because of the voices I hear and the things I see, and I get really paranoid and will close all of the blinds and windows in my house and lock everything several times thinking that the government is out to get me and that they want to kidnap and kill me. I've been handling the psychotic episodes all right although I am working through different meds to try and find one that works. Although I almost always hear voices talking to me and I am paranoid about doing anything outside my house, and I sometimes see weird shadows and small animals running around.
Glad to see someone spreading the word about mental health, and lots of false information in this thread for certain posters.
If anyone has any questions, I would love to answer them.
Meds I'm on...
Methylphenidate/Ritalin ER:72mg (max dose)
Sertaline/Zoloft: 200mg (max dose)
Clonazepam/Klonopin: 4-5mg a day
Mirtazapine/Remeron: 15mg
Meds i'm supposed to be on but don't take...
300mg Acetaminophen- 30mg codiene - 15mg caffeine/Tylenol 3
Seems like you have a lot of problems, sorry to hear about that 
In my personal opinion you are being treated in a very american way, just prescribing 7 (!) meds at the same time. Over here, people rarely receive more than 3 psychofarmaca at the same time.
What I was wondering though, is why you randomly leave out about half of your meds when you are still experiencing problems?
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On March 24 2012 00:14 naVaz wrote:hey. i suggest to try erich fromm. "The Art of Loving" & " To Have or To Be?" if you wanna get to know the reasons (and solutions) for all the previous stated problems. if ya hestitating, then youtube him and listen to what he has to say. those books should be available in all languages a TL user could speak to say the least, you can somehow be happy to feel some kind of mental struggle in this fucked up society. its natural. greetz from leipzig
Good input 
But I somewhat doubt that a book can offer both all the reasons AND all the cures for all of these fairly complicated psychological/neurological problems. Especially considering the fact that science isn't even able to offer full explanations for all the stated problems, and the cures are both divers and hardly 100% effective :p
But then again, it might offer some help to some people!
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EPT
