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If SCII had a unified chat history, I'm pretty sure all of my ZvZ games' chatlogs would look something like this:
"You cheesed and won. I hope you feel accomplished"
"cheese scrub"
"Enjoy forever bronze cheesy noob"
"proud u cheesr?"
I'm gonna be honest; I really like what is typically called "cheese". My goto build for ZvZ from Bronze to Gold was the 7-pool. I just love all of the advantages Zerg can get by going for ridiculously early pools. Against a Hatch first it's more or less a BO win, and against anything other than a "cheesy pool"(6-8 pool) I've been able to kill enough drones to make my opponent and I more or less equal on drone count. Thanks to my fast pool though, I've also got a queen, and so I've got a huge advantage; most of the time.
To be clear: I don't cheese to win, I cheese to mess with my opponent. I wouldn't even call it cheese, to be honest, it's just early aggression in the purest form (I'd say cheese is almost always an all-in strategy where you are 100% comitted to it. If you're planning what you're going to do afterwards? It's not cheese)
After getting hit by a 7-pool, any general, non-food based timings my opponent might have are useless, because at my level players can't estimate how much I've thrown them off. Getting pressured just completely throws off their mid-end game strategy, which leaves them wide open for my favorite mid-game roach push.
More important, however, is that my opponent's mental game is now very thrown off.
If you're in a game where neither side is really pushing out, you can usually get a general mental picture of what he could have at a given time, but once you get hit with an attack, it starts to get harder to tell; especially with Zerg since we have explosive production.
It's also pretty natural for people to feel threatened after they've been attacked. What do you do when you don't feel safe in Starcraft? You make some lings and throw down a spine or two. The problem is that early on, Zerg can't really afford to do that. Making some defensive lings and throwing down a spine? That shit is hella expensive; 100 minerals, and the lost drones from the lings and the spines. That adds up pretty fast.
So my 7-pool goes something like this: pool, make two drones, make and overlord. Pool pops, make 3 sets of lings, then drone until about 15 food, when I naturally stock up minerals for a queen. I'm not comitted to this push; in fact I'm assuming it's not going to straight up kill my opponent off (unless I see hatch first, in which case I start reinforcing my lings). So I start macroing out of it. Meanwhile, my opponent is sitting there freaking out about these lings in his base. Sometimes there will be some cute micro, but usually there's just an A-move on all the drones.
So we end up on equal footing, right? Except now he's freaking out. Yeah, he held the shit out of those 6 lings, but there HAVE to be reinforcements on the way, right? Spine crawler. 3 sets of lings. Now he's safe. Great. Maybe another spine for good measure, whatever. Now he finally starts droning again, meanwhile I'm in my base with 6 more drones, a queen, and a single spine, macroing up for a pretty standard macro-game. I usually opt for ~8 Roaches, expand, and aim for mutas, and by the time I roll into his base he's just started mining from his natural, he's maybe got Lair, but nothing frightening, and I easily secure the win.
And without fail, my opponent tells me how bad I am for cheesing. Usually I ignore it, but sometimes, late at night I lie awake and worry...
Am I really a "cheesenoobscrub"?
 
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It's cheese because against a proper opponent you'll flat out lose if he defends it properly. If he doesn't then he made a mistake and that's all on him. It's all about betting on whether or not he makes a mistake, wagering on your opponents level of skill rather than your own. I think we can agree that it takes more effort to be the defender against a 7 pool with a spine and all your drones than to be on the offensive end of the ordeal.
In the end you're doing people a favor by giving them a chance to learn how to deal with 7 pool. Once they get that over with they can move on with their progression as a player, moving onto dealing with 2 base all-ins and timings, and furthermore to higher level macro games. All the while you're sitting here making a blog about how great your 7 pool is.
EDIT: forgot to say- Thank you
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Not really, but your zvz is completely useless outside of totally random ladder pairings.
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Of course it's cheese. And of course cheesers hate being called cheesers, and come up with all sorts of logic and justifications and arguments that cheese doesn't exist in this game, only "strategy" and "early aggression."
Are you really in gold-bronze? Then I guess calling you a cheesing noob is pretty much factually accurate, if your goto build in zvz is 7pool, and you are in gold-bronze.
You have two choices: 1) Embrace the fact that you are a cheesy noob and just play the game for whatever fun it brings you. 2) Recognize that being a cheesy noob is lame and work on improving your play instead of relying on gimmicks to win...
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Yes you are in fact a cheesy noob.
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On February 08 2012 06:12 liberal wrote:
Of course it's cheese. And of course cheesers hate being called cheesers, and come up with all sorts of logic and justifications and arguments that cheese doesn't exist in this game, only "strategy" and "early aggression."
Are you really in bronze? Then I guess calling you a cheesing noob is pretty much factually accurate, if your goto build in zvz is 7pool, and you are in bronze.
You have two choices: 1) Embrace the fact that you are a cheesy noob and just play the game for whatever fun it brings you. 2) Recognize that being a cheesy noob is lame and work on improving your play instead of relying on gimmicks to win... in bronze.
If something wins consistently it's not a gimmick. You might think it's "lame" but at the end of the day if 7 pooling won 100% of games everyone would do it; the only reason people don't cheese 100% of the time is because doing so won't win as much as playing macro games will. He also said that he's above bronze within the first few sentences of his post, so...
Anyway, you can defend a 7 pool with a hatch-first if you play it right, and if you open 14/14 and micro correctly you'll crush a 7 pool. To be honest, you're only winning because your opponents are basically giving you won games, not because 7-pooling is a solid strategy.
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It's cheese but it is nothing to be ashamed of. Jaedong pulled a 5 pool against SKT just the other day. If you can become really proficient with early pool builds, that is great, but make sure you do not neglect your ability to play with other build orders.
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On February 08 2012 06:25 Bagration wrote:
It's cheese but it is nothing to be ashamed of. Jaedong pulled a 5 pool against SKT just the other day. If you can become really proficient with early pool builds, that is great, but make sure you do not neglect your ability to play with other build orders.
When Jaedong does it, it isn't something to be ashamed of, because Jaedong is incredibly skilled and knows how to play a macro game. When a noob does it because they are just bad at the game and they don't really have any good alternatives, then it is something to be ashamed of, assuming of course that being "bad" at a game and never attempting to improve is worthy of shame.
On February 08 2012 06:19 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 06:12 liberal wrote:
Of course it's cheese. And of course cheesers hate being called cheesers, and come up with all sorts of logic and justifications and arguments that cheese doesn't exist in this game, only "strategy" and "early aggression."
Are you really in bronze? Then I guess calling you a cheesing noob is pretty much factually accurate, if your goto build in zvz is 7pool, and you are in bronze.
You have two choices: 1) Embrace the fact that you are a cheesy noob and just play the game for whatever fun it brings you. 2) Recognize that being a cheesy noob is lame and work on improving your play instead of relying on gimmicks to win... in bronze. If something wins consistently it's not a gimmick. You might think it's "lame" but at the end of the day if 7 pooling won 100% of games everyone would do it; the only reason people don't cheese 100% of the time is because doing so won't win as much as playing macro games will. He also said that he's above bronze within the first few sentences of his post, so...
I've read this several times and I still have no clue what you are trying to say. If something wins 100% of games it's not a gimmick? Umm, I guess not, that would mean the game is just broken and is getting patched soon. Do you understand the meaning of the word "gimmick"?
Anyway, I changed my original post to "gold-bronze" for you. That still means noob, but I guess you needed the league to be clarified.
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Even if it's cheese, who gives a shit? If it works for you and you enjoy playing it have fun with it! 
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On February 08 2012 06:10 Snuggles wrote:
I think we can agree that it takes more effort to be the defender against a 7 pool with a spine and all your drones than to be on the offensive end of the ordeal.
Only if I'm reinforcing it/doing more micro than focusing down low health drones. My "7-pool" is 6 lings, maybe 8 if I'm feeling dangerous, and I haven't added a spine into the mix since Bronze League. The whole point is to throw my opponent off with an attack that he won't counter quickly. I don't straight up win through the 7-pool, I just throw my opponent off and then go on to play a macro game.
All the while you're sitting here making a blog about how great your 7 pool is.
I'm in a computer architecture class at the moment, and the prof is basically telling us what each individual pin on 20 year old IC's do. Plus I like writing. =P
On February 08 2012 06:12 liberal wrote:
Of course it's cheese. And of course cheesers hate being called cheesers, and come up with all sorts of logic and justifications and arguments that cheese doesn't exist in this game, only "strategy" and "early aggression."
I'm not saying cheese doesn't exist; it absolutely does, and it can be a real pain in the ass to deal with if you aren't prepared for it. You seem to be suggesting that early aggression doesn't exist, which I find a bit silly. Is every late-game engagement an all-in? Of course not. You can have aggression that doesn't end the game, and that's exactly what I'm doing; I just do it very very early.
Simply put, cheese exists, I just don't think I'm cheesing, because my intention is to play a macro style once my initial 6-8 lings die. Cheese, to me, requires that the cheesing player should quit if they can't kill their opponent completely with their attack, and typically you cut workers entirely and go solely into army production.
Then I guess calling you a cheesing noob is pretty much factually accurate, if your goto build in zvz is 7pool, and you are in gold-bronze.
Would it really be that much more skillful to go for a hatch-first defensive-BO? It's not as though BO is even important past the 3-5 minute mark, because at that point unknown variables start throwing everything off; especially in ZvZ.
When Jaedong does [cheese], it isn't something to be ashamed of, because Jaedong is incredibly skilled and knows how to play a macro game.
I know how to play a macro game too; granted, I'm probably not as good as Jaedong =P The outcome of my initial ling attack is usually that my opponent and I end up with roughly the same number of drones, because I don't reinforce at all unless I have a good reason to.
I don't see a good reason to not 7-pool, because I've never done it and not come out ahead. Sure; throw me against a Masters level player and he'll probably kill my lings without losing anything, but it's currently an incredibly effective strategy that I haven't lost with.
On February 08 2012 06:19 Skwid1g wrote:
To be honest, you're only winning because your opponents are basically giving you won games, not because 7-pooling is a solid strategy.
Yeah, I've watched the replays of my last 20 or so ZvZ games and my opponents in general have very slow reaction times. I've been trying to get one of my Masters level friends to play some games with me and do some kind of aggressive counter after holding the first 6 lings, but he's been busy lately. With my fairly consistent wins recently though, I might go up to Platinum soon; maybe they'll be good enough to force me to change up my style.
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Honestly I open hatch first in ZvZ on every map that allows it (all of which I don't downvote except tal'darim) and I scout. So if you early pool I know before my hatch is down and I can defend it easily, and if you do some later baneling all-in I can defend any baneling with Queens on the ramp and proper micro. On tal'darim there is no ramp so zergling all ins are impossible to hold so I just 14/14 which is way safe against any early pools.
Point is: I don't know what level you play now (looks like you're saying gold) but at the diamond and masters level (I'm mid masters) this early pool stuff is rarely going to work against a scouting zerg or anything that isn't hatch first so I would practice other openings. Sure cheese ain't bad and it can work...pros do it all the time because they are mind games but here's the deal: you're not playing mind games on the ladder and I'd say players get experienced pretty quickly and stop 'freaking out'. Defending this isn't wizard micro and anyone who knows how to do it and watched a couple people do it, can reproduce it easily. Your entire strategy is based on the fact that you opponent will freak out which in my opinion is very bad because you're not improving as a player but rather abusing the lack of experience of your opponents.
I don't want to sound harsh; it's still cool to do aggressive builds but stuff like 7-pool is way too all-in...you'll never do enough damage with your soft version unless he 15 hatches and never scouts. I'd look into 10 pools and the multiple transitions if you REALLY want to be aggressive but again you need to do -some- damage.
Playing defensive and winning the long game is very fun in all matchups too you know
For the swarm!
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On February 08 2012 07:45 Steel wrote:
Point is: I don't know what level you play now (looks like you're saying gold) but at the diamond and masters level (I'm mid masters) this early pool stuff is rarely going to work against a scouting zerg or anything that isn't hatch first so I would practice other openings.
How are you judging whether or not an early pool "works"? What exactly qualifies as a "successful defense"?
Your entire strategy is based on the fact that you opponent will freak out which in my opinion is very bad because you're not improving as a player but rather abusing the lack of experience of your opponents.
I don't really rely on my opponent freaking out though; so far I've pretty much seen that once my initial lings are all dead, my opponent and I are more or less equal in drone count. At that point, I've taken away most of the advantage my opponent had by delaying his pool. The only way my opponent's freaking out matters is in the advantages he gives me by investing in defense. If he doesn't do that at all, we're on equal footing, and we can move on with our macro game.
Playing defensive and winning the long game is very fun in all matchups too you know
I actually prefer playing defensive and going for those long macro games, because I'm pretty good at them. The only problem is that my ability to effectively defend early-game in ZvZ (i.e. Baneling wars) is inconsistent at best. I lack the speed, precision and micro to effectively execute any sort of Baneling aggression or defense successfully, but once that phase of the game is over, my ZvZ is very solid.
I've found that my 7-pool generally doesn't get responded to by Banelings, and if it does, I usually get Roaches out in time to deal with them, so I don't have to deal with an area of ZvZ that I'm the weakest at.
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On February 08 2012 07:18 Kasha_Not_Kesha wrote:
Simply put, cheese exists, I just don't think I'm cheesing, because my intention is to play a macro style once my initial 6-8 lings die. Cheese, to me, requires that the cheesing player should quit if they can't kill their opponent completely with their attack, and typically you cut workers entirely and go solely into army production.
I'd like to point out that since you are still at gold level, you may have assumptions about the effectiveness of your build that are only valid at a certain skill level. Instead of holding fast to those assumptions, you should be fluid and flexible, and be ready to fix those assumptions as you learn more.
With regards to your particular build:
A 7-pool basically mean that you must do a lot of damage just to even out the game. Against players who are more adept at defending such early aggression, you will almost never be able to do enough damage to justify the economic cost. That's why people call it cheese.
The fact that you're playing a more economic variant means you're just doing a less effective attack that will almost always put you behind against a good defense. I think you'll soon enough hit a wall with this build and be forced to switch to a more effective build, at which point you'll have to start from scratch. You might as well pull all your drones and be truly all-in (it'll probably work all the way up to high diamond).
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What's with this obsession against "cheese"? I almost never lose to it. If you don't want early aggression, stay in the beginner ladder with destructible rocks. Everything has risk. And whether or not it pays off is up to one's own skill. Early econ means nothing if you lose a pack of lings to one baneling. Suddenly it's even, whether or not the early aggression from the opponent did any real damage.
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On February 08 2012 07:18 Kasha_Not_Kesha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 06:10 Snuggles wrote:
I think we can agree that it takes more effort to be the defender against a 7 pool with a spine and all your drones than to be on the offensive end of the ordeal. Only if I'm reinforcing it/doing more micro than focusing down low health drones. My "7-pool" is 6 lings, maybe 8 if I'm feeling dangerous, and I haven't added a spine into the mix since Bronze League. The whole point is to throw my opponent off with an attack that he won't counter quickly. I don't straight up win through the 7-pool, I just throw my opponent off and then go on to play a macro game. Show nested quote +All the while you're sitting here making a blog about how great your 7 pool is. I'm in a computer architecture class at the moment, and the prof is basically telling us what each individual pin on 20 year old IC's do. Plus I like writing. =P
I don't get it. Are you trying to prove that you're putting in more effort into the game than your opponent is? Or are we coming to a consensus and you're walking me through your mind set during a 7 pool game? Misunderstandings, misunderstandings.
If you're trying to tell me that you're doing work by focusing low health drones with your initial lings while reinforcing, then that's just silly. That is not hard micro. Your opponent is sitting on thin ice with no lings initially, and he has to micro his drones just as well as you are, and better if he wants to win.
You don't throw a player off with a 7 pool, well I guess in your circumstances you can but I'm stating that that isn't how things are suppose to go. It can't really be argued since leagues and rankings in correlation to styles and strats used kind of make my point for me. You'll improve as a player and you'll run into that wall where you'll realize that your 7 pool doesn't work anymore, in other words players will happily capitalize on your poor economy and have the choice to end it quickly or abuse you late game.
There are rights and wrongs in this game as well as things that we'll never have a solid grasp on. Early pools have been in the right and wrong categories for a while now for a good reason.
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If you are consistently coming out ahead when you 7 pool, why only build 6 lings? If you are in fact ahead you can just win at that point by building more lings and not risking a longer game.
Your strategy for an entire matchup is hoping your opponent doesn't build attacking units/doesn't know how to control his attacking units while you 7 pool, so I guess that does make you a cheesy noob. 
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On February 08 2012 08:05 Kasha_Not_Kesha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 07:45 Steel wrote:
Point is: I don't know what level you play now (looks like you're saying gold) but at the diamond and masters level (I'm mid masters) this early pool stuff is rarely going to work against a scouting zerg or anything that isn't hatch first so I would practice other openings. How are you judging whether or not an early pool "works"? What exactly qualifies as a "successful defense"?
From experience, both playing and watching a ridiculous amount of ZvZ....early pool builds don't work that well. You can be taken by surprise by it but just consider the standard player:
-15 hatch, doesn't scout, you can win this but if executed properly by the defending player (forcing you to back off by threatening the surround (ie mineral walking) and doesn't let any spine comes up) then things should even out or you might have a slight lead.
-15 hatch, scouts, knows it is coming and doesn't stop drone production. If you 6-7 pool your 6 lings will actually be overwhelmed by the amounts of drones and lings will pop out as your 7-8th lings arrive.
-14 gas 14 pool. 6 lings come as pool finishes, you will do minimal damage and his speed will be so earlier than yours and he will have total map dominance.
This is of course if the defending player adequately defends the rush. Now the thing is that it's actually pretty easy to defend the 7 pool 6-8 lings without spine crawlers. The all in version, with 8 lings, 2 spines and all the drones is almost impossible to stop with a 15 hatch and slightly more difficult with a 14/14. So it might work now, but you're not the only one who does this. Actually, a ton of people do this in the lower leagues and still in the higher leagues. I rarely lose to it, and only do if I did something really stupid like delay my pool for no good reason.
TLDR: Non all-in early pools can work against extreme greed or bad micro which rarely happens on the ladder at higher level.
I'd work on my baneling micro honestly. Check out this thread for solid openings (I wouldn't one base roach anymore though, maps have gotten much bigger). Machine had a great baneling wars 101 but it got removed sadly. I would still definitely check mr.bitter's 12 weeks with the pros for solid professional ZvZ advice.
Show nested quote +Your entire strategy is based on the fact that you opponent will freak out which in my opinion is very bad because you're not improving as a player but rather abusing the lack of experience of your opponents. I don't really rely on my opponent freaking out though; so far I've pretty much seen that once my initial lings are all dead, my opponent and I are more or less equal in drone count. At that point, I've taken away most of the advantage my opponent had by delaying his pool. The only way my opponent's freaking out matters is in the advantages he gives me by investing in defense. If he doesn't do that at all, we're on equal footing, and we can move on with our macro game.
Hey, there's nothing shameful with using a build that works! Just trying to advise you against doing only that because sadly it will only take you so far. ZvZ and mirror matchups in general are VERY frustrating and doing builds to gain an early advantage sure saves some headaches when they work...but she headaches will be much worse they stop working! On the other hand, a lengthy experience with an all-around solid opening like 14/14 is great because it's safe and optimal at all levels.
Show nested quote +Playing defensive and winning the long game is very fun in all matchups too you know I actually prefer playing defensive and going for those long macro games, because I'm pretty good at them. The only problem is that my ability to effectively defend early-game in ZvZ (i.e. Baneling wars) is inconsistent at best. I lack the speed, precision and micro to effectively execute any sort of Baneling aggression or defense successfully, but once that phase of the game is over, my ZvZ is very solid.
I know how you feel...I like to think I have solid baneling micro but you'll always make a mistake once in a while and one mistake with banelings means gg...that is the nature of ZvZ. Fortunately with the new map layouts 15 hatch is very strong. 10 pool baneling is not a very good build and 14/14 into baneling can be dealt with by queens on the ramp and spine crawlers at the natural. It's not easy though, I've practiced 15 hatch for a long time and only now do I feel totally safe against all the early games shenanigans. The truth is that once you figure out the timings it's pretty easy to just make spines, block you ramps and micro slow lings... a lot easier than the guy with speedlings and banelings trying to all-in you. I don't do much, I just know my timings and I scout It's a game of drones.
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My Defination of zvz cheese
zvz has a very blurred line for cheese. with the addition of queens in sc2 zergs large bursts of units coming out and not knowing what they may be can making. The zvz match up can be frustrating as hell to some players cause u must constantly be scouting to not get run over by some kinda attack. I'll find alot in zvz, players will build some attacking units, and push, while droneing up behind this, the push either forces them to make units and back off, or they attack and do some damage like kill some drones, a queen,etc or u can attack and do damage, if you see you are gunna do alot of damage.You can then start rallying in zerglings, etc.
So i guess for me in zvz cheese is an attack where u have 0 intention of droneing up behind, even though some players had no intention of droneing up they will fail with all in but have done decent damage and continue playing the game out. So unfortunatly the lines are very unclear, but if every time zerg were to build units and attack in a zvz instead of droneing up till they are fully saturated with their ideal tech choice ready to start producing nothing but fighting units and taking a 3rd, then all most every zvz i have ever played would be considered an allin so thats just fuckin silly.
I hope this makes sense i have been outta school for quite some time now, it has turned me into a big dummie, can't spell, frogotten grammar etc kekeke
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I 7 pool in every single ZvZ every time, even close air Metal and Shattered. I still call it cheesing, because... it pretty much is. Yes, I build all drones after the first 6 zerglings, but if both my opponent and I micro perfectly (assuming he goes 14/14) he will come out on top. Unfortunately that's pretty hard to do so I take a lot of stupid wins.
But my rationale (besides the fact that I fucking HATE ZvZ and just wanna get it over with) is that it's absolutely no riskier than a 15 hatch build, in that there exists one hard counter (15 hatch is countered by early pool, early pool is countered by 11 overpool,) but sadly 7 pool meets its counter FAR less often than 15 hatch does, so in the end 7 pool is better on average, and easier.
ZvZ is stupid, cheese is stupid, but that's the game. Sometimes SC2 is just stupid.
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I guess the issue is that I'm running into people that deal with the 7-pool horribly. I'm a cheesy nub, and I didn't even realize it! =[
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EPT
