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So Bippzy.
Ye find yeself as the the zerg pieces, swarming happily away..apprehensive of the terran armies to come.
You enter a deep state of mental concentration not without farsightedness. You do what happens very rarely in the pro scene.
You get..to:
[spoiler]PVT LATEGAMEE!!!!1111[/spoiler]
What do you do?
Well, let's look at, from a logical perspective, your choices. Each should be explained thoroughly so that it doesn't seem completely out of the boundaries of possibility.
A) The easy argument. You cannot get to lategame when you are even with a Terran. It is impossible. This could be compared to getting to really late game ZvP where protoss has atleast 3 bases....it's really hard to make stuff work.
B)The Day9's ZvP dailies argument. Essentially, Zerg wants to get a third base and then deny the protoss's third base as long as possible while taking more bases. Once the tosses third base is up, teching and maintaining expansions as while as taking gasses becomes the new goal.
This argument can be extrapolated to ZvT, in a different way. Perhaps allowing Terrans to get their third or fourth base too early is a big nono? maybe the terran must be forced to use X amount of scans and make X amount of missile turrets while not being allowed to do damage? Something. This would require a super high level of experimentation.
C) The Skill argument. It can be argued that in lategame ZvT, it is much easier for the zerg to make mistakes, while the terran has to deny expansions with EZ nukes, snipe, and build PFs at expos. Real hard(from a pro perspective, this sarcasm can be justified). Zerg has to stop all these nukes, try to deny expos, do special tactics which shouldn't work against a correctly turtling terran, and just generally do more abstract things. Maybe someone with an EXTREME high level of skill can beat terran late game?
D) The terran's production argument. Find a way to camp the terran's production. Do it. Use fungals and Broods or something to hold the ramp so their army can't be as advantaged. Maybe?
E) The zerg's production argument. also known as Bippzy's theorycraft argument. How do you kill terran lategame? The thing I seem to see is as follows: Brood Lords, Ultralisks, and Infestors. Now how about this? let's say you are a good boy and neuter yourself down to sixty drones for the lategame, allowing 140 army supply. The thought is, max out on Broods,/corrupts Ultras, and Queens as well as some infestors. Then, build approx 20-26 spines, make all that supply into infestors, and cancel the spines, allowing you to keep your decent 60 drone economy.
Allowing this to happen, the zerg now has Queens to preserve their ultras and Broods/corrupts, infestors to help with air units, marines, ghosts, and ultras to protect the infestors. This is the best zerg death ball I can think of.
F) The reverse turtle argument, a cousin of the skill argument. Get the deathball referenced at E as well as all the static defenses you can think of. Essentially become drop proof, discouraging to forward pushes, and nuke proof. Then you wait for the terran to attack into you, and always defend. It can be argued zerglings SUCK late game...so just build infinity spines and spores. Hope for either a stalemate OR the terran to lose so much of his army that you can do enough damage.
G)The argument I didn't want to write after I wrote A. Essentially, the don't get into lategame zerg vs terran on any sort of equal terms. How? I'll just list. Overlord with one queen and drop researched flying around and creep tumoring ever future terran base, as well as spreading the creep tumor to be annoying. The ultimate drop defense: Two banes burrowed to stop a marine drop, and one OL on top of each expo with two banes incase they do something real clever. Perhaps sneak one of their future lategame bases as your own and mine it out? Just something to give you the advantage.
TL;DR I can't theorycraft my way thru lategame ZvT, I doubt anyone else can.
 
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What you are trying to answer, I am not sure.
Is the question is how to survive late/end game ZvT for the W or how to get to the late-game unit composition before terran can effectively "counter" it with proper mass of tech units and secured expansions? They both are very different answers with varying in-game situations (such as Terran favors more bio over mech units, how well do you spot and defend harassment, etc.)
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On January 31 2012 08:27 TG Manny wrote:
What you are trying to answer, I am not sure.
Is the question is how to survive late/end game ZvT for the W or how to get to the late-game unit composition before terran can effectively "counter" it with proper mass of tech units and secured expansions? They both are very different answers with varying in-game situations (such as Terran favors more bio over mech units, how well do you spot and defend harassment, etc.)
It's pretty much my general confusion with how late game zvt works. It is just my musings, and I guess I kinda hoped someone could make sense of it for me.
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Keeping the Terran at less than three bases is possible (if difficult), and very effective. Often times, if you can hold them on two bases long enough then you just win it outright.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Zerg maxes out faster than Terran. Once you hit maxed, you need to put pressure on them, whether it be keeping them off their 3rd or 4th, dropping the main, baiting engagements, etc. If you've got a stronger economy going, then even trades work out great. Oftentimes, the Zerg will have more drones than the Terran does SCVs (see MULES), meaning that if both armies are maxed, the Zerg is at a disadvantage.
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If you can deny a third with mutas (hovering around base to snipe off whatever you can if you're turreted out and/or kill a good amount of workers you can really make a Terran afraid to push and frees up map control to secure another expo or two in the mid game with a round or two of drones to saturate them.
This is the ideal situation. Mutas invariably make the terran scared to leave his base, especially if they pick off stuff before terran is fully prepared (such as a tank or two after pulling his marines to defend his main).
Just remember not to engage with your muta flock and add another round and it becomes a scary cloud of harassment for fairly cheap for its power. (Muta is expensive, but scaring terran into spreading his marines, not dropping, sniping slow tanks on push outs, and killing worker lines can make 20 mutas very worthwhile)
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On January 31 2012 09:08 TG Manny wrote:
If you can deny a third with mutas (hovering around base to snipe off whatever you can if you're turreted out and/or kill a good amount of workers you can really make a Terran afraid to push and frees up map control to secure another expo or two in the mid game with a round or two of drones to saturate them.
This is the ideal situation. Mutas invariably make the terran scared to leave his base, especially if they pick off stuff before terran is fully prepared (such as a tank or two after pulling his marines to defend his main).
Just remember not to engage with your muta flock and add another round and it becomes a scary cloud of harassment for fairly cheap for its power. (Muta is expensive, but scaring terran into spreading his marines, not dropping, sniping slow tanks on push outs, and killing worker lines can make 20 mutas very worthwhile)
Heard loud and clear. It also feels hard for zerg to go into the lategame with any sort of advantage without going mutas first. Lennock's play is quite indicative of that...But I've seen DRG kill face with it.
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+ Show Spoiler [confusion] +The title says its about ZvT
The failed spoiler says its about PvT
And then you talk about ZvP...
I are confoosedly calling brane reepair maan.
Anyways, most people who cancel buildings to increase their max supply will make evo chambers, but I'm not entirely sure why. But what I really want to say is that you should probably ladder instead of theorycrafting. I put myself in a month-long slump in PvZ by trying to theorycraft too much. I had various ideas in my mind with no basis in reality that really helped my opponents, and I thought I was doing everything right. Point is, even with really good logic, you can come to false conclusions. Also, unless you are mid-master, finding the perfect game-plan for your level probably isn't as efficient a way to improve as going with a "standard" game plan and focusing on micro, macro, etc.
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EPT
