Hi guys, I have been streaming a lot lately, and I am also going to start creating more video content. This thread I will keep updated with new videos I post that are SC2 related.
In the videos I make I will be discussing/analyzing SC2 theory of different match-ups/strategies and the current metagame at the time of making the video. I will be posting videos with my thoughts at the time. If the video is not covering theory/strategy/metagame content, you can be sure it will be SC2 related and I will try to bring up discussion topics that are relevant to the community at that point in time.
For the first video i've made here, I am discussing the current viability/non-viability of mech play in the tvp match-up. I thought this would be a great idea for a video because the mech tvp viability discussion is a relevant one that was just recently brought up on sotg as well.
So, I hope people can enjoy these, constructive feedback/criticism is very appreciated
Most recent Video(s): Updated December 20, 2012:
avilo HOTS Metagame Update #8: Terran has been removed from the game.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the video #1:
Update January 18, 2012: Here is the video #2:
Update June 18, 2012: Video #3:
Feel free to tweet at me if you liked/didn't like the video + give any other feedback!
masters toss here. totally agree with you, mech is kind of a joke tvp and while i agree with artosis that players could probably use it better in, for instance tvt, it does seem pretty bad tvp.
I feel that, at the highest level of play, PvT is pretty balanced. But that doesn't mean it's a good matchup.
Bio vs Protoss doesn't feel BAD, it can lead to some good games, but Blizzard lost out on a lot of potential. In BW, Terran was pretty much forced into mech vs Protoss in macro games, and in SC2 Blizzard had the chance to make the matchup even more interesting by giving Terran the option of bio and mech in all matchups.
They succeeded pretty well in TvT and TvZ, but in TvP it feels really bad (although there is still a chance that some guy will explore it and do what Flash did to TvP in BW). And that is what leads me to believe that the issue is NOT with Terran - it is with the Protoss design.
You end up with the weird situation where every Protoss unit, and the design of Protoss in general, can be used easily to "counter" mech. This means that if the Terran units are buffed, Protoss is likely instead to be in the reverse situation - mech would just be unstoppable. So Protoss is the race which needs fixed, not Terran.
This is exaggerated more by the other matchups. PvZ occasionally has exciting moments, but the new wave of PvZ (JYP/HerO/Sage) hasn't really taken hold, and none of them have had great success with it in GSL, and the old MC style of PvZ is successful but not epic or particularly tense, not in the same way as TvT or TvZ. PvP was shit for a long time, and I reckon it's only interesting now because of the novelty value: Protoss was the weakest race for a significant period of time, and only now do we frequently see PvP at the highest level of play.
In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources), and abilities like Warp-in, Charge, Hardened Shields need to be more considered rather than just thrown in because they could perform a function and look cool.
No hate on you but it is REALLY REALLY HARD to trust anything that you said. You have a huge background of QQ-ing in ladder games as well as on forums. It is not that your statements are inaccurate but they are often exaggerated from the original problem.
TvP overall is not even your best match up. I remember watching you bo7 ladder vs minigun and you lose at least 5 or 6 of them. Your image is shattered in my head just as much as combatex or deezer. How about actually win games display your technique instead of complaining how how Terran cant win. And dont even tell me game imbalance... if MMA could win blizzard cup, MVP could win GSL, you have no right to QQ over a ladder game.
My main point is, recently i have seen you trying to take stuff seriously and try to get your name out there and i hope you start from the right place. Once you fix that, i will be fully supportive on what you do.
On December 25 2011 05:46 NB wrote: No hate on you but it is REALLY REALLY HARD to trust anything that you said. You have a huge background of QQ-ing in ladder games as well as on forums. It is not that your statements are inaccurate but they are often exaggerated from the original problem.
TvP overall is not even your best match up. I remember watching you bo7 ladder vs minigun and you lose at least 5 or 6 of them. Your image is shattered in my head just as much as combatex or deezer. How about actually win games display your technique instead of complaining how how Terran cant win. And dont even tell me game imbalance... if MMA could win blizzard cup, MVP could win GSL, you have no right to QQ over a ladder game.
My main point is, recently i have seen you trying to take stuff seriously and try to get your name out there and i hope you start from the right place. Once you fix that, i will be fully supportive on what you do.
Love and peace .
I appreciate the feedback...but you're giving me feedback on forum posts I made in beta when I was giving feedback as a beta tester of starcraft 2. Nothing you said even remotely has anything to do with the video I posted, let alone the content, let alone overarching balance.
I do appreciate any feedback on the videos I am currently making/posting, rather than feedback on random forum posts I made during a beta test of a game. Thanks in advance !
In craftcup yesterday, first round i beat liquid'haypro...i think you're a bit behind on the times in reference to me "winning games" anyways, this is besides the point. Please don't de-rail the thread with vague references to posts i made 1+ year ago.
I agree with most things that you said. I also did something like this after hearing the SotG debate where I went mech for a week and it went horribly LOL. But the one thing I don't agree with is Blizzard nerfing mech in TvP on purpose. The reason most mech units were nerfed was because of their imbalance in other MU's. For instance, I remember tanks being nerfed because they did way too much damage to ling bane. Also, the ghost nerf was not to nerf mech, but bio.
For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
On December 25 2011 07:07 Djagulingu wrote: For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
Even it it's "whine" its so true its not even funny :b
On December 25 2011 07:07 Djagulingu wrote: For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
Even it it's "whine" its so true its not even funny :b
The funny thing is not the situation of mech. The funny thing is the way avilo expresses it.
On December 25 2011 05:32 SeaSwift wrote: In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources
Protoss has warp prisms, phoenixes and DTs for harass and they have HTs, Phoenixes and Blink stalkers and Archons to counter mutalisks. But there is a fundamental design flaw with all those units: You need to micro them so that they can do their job. New units like these can be implemented though, if you remove phoenix though.
Make enemy units cost more resources? Ok, let's summarize: If something like this gets implemented along with a harass unit and a unit that counters mass mutas without phoenix getting removed, my brother can actually beat Nestea playing protoss. PvZ would be that broken. A unit that makes enemy units cost more = ling/baneling are no longer viable.
On December 25 2011 05:32 SeaSwift wrote: In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources
Protoss has warp prisms, phoenixes and DTs for harass and they have HTs, Phoenixes and Blink stalkers and Archons to counter mutalisks. But there is a fundamental design flaw with all those units: You need to micro them so that they can do their job. New units like these can be implemented though, if you remove phoenix though.
Make enemy units cost more resources? Ok, let's summarize: If something like this gets implemented along with a harass unit and a unit that counters mass mutas without phoenix getting removed, my brother can actually beat Nestea playing protoss. PvZ would be that broken. A unit that makes enemy units cost more = ling/baneling are no longer viable.
...What are you talking about? Sorry, I'm completely lost by your post. I was stating what Blizzard is planning to put in the game (Oracle, Tempest & Replicator respectively), not what I think they should. And you completely missed what the Replicator does.
I don't like the "blizzard hates mech" stuff... Regarding some of your main complaints: a) the hellions with +1 weapons as well as blue flame still destroy mineral lines. Doesn't really seem like a good argument. b) the only thing that I can find a goliath has over the viking is it started with +1 armor, it was cheaper and it shared ground upgrades with mech. What do you think would make the viking more attractive? - maybe mixing banshees would be an alternative?
I agree that the thor energy change was unnecessary. Also Armory gas cost is an issue (the only other +/+ upgrade structure that requires gas is the spire - and that's a "unit tech structure" - although the armory does allow thor production and thor rushes might become an issue).
Talking about HotS changes. Forget the warhound and make the thor faster now (this seems to be one of the main issues vs mutas - after the cost effectiveness of magic boxing). Giving mech any additional mobility would help.
I do agree that just about every protoss unit in some way counters mech
Good blog avilo. I feel like there's a ton of denialism in the SC2 community about how ridiculously bad mech is, and it's good to see a top NA player talk about it. You're going to be shouted down by entitled P players though who think that making 40 gateways and warping in 100 supply of chargelots is a "skill".
On December 25 2011 09:07 Fission wrote: Good blog avilo. I feel like there's a ton of denialism in the SC2 community about how ridiculously bad mech is, and it's good to see a top NA player talk about it. You're going to be shouted down by entitled P players though who think that making 40 gateways and warping in 100 supply of chargelots is a "skill".
Actually the denialism is coming from the mid-range players, ~diamond to mid-masters. I've talked to a quite a few progamers, both P and T (dde, NrGMonk) and they share the sentiment that late game protoss isn't just favored against mech, it's just flat out favored.
While there's no consensus yet, many pros and more every day begin to share the sentiment that mech vs P is downright not viable, which is a problem when you're cut off from using 1/2 of your arsenal because there's just no way to make it cost effective against enemy units. And it's not really an exaggeration.
Watch the streams of...vileIllusion, Jinro, Rainbow, watch them try to mech against P and see how it turns out. I haven't seen ForGG or Bomber mech in tvp yet, and probably for good reason - they care about winning more than about experimentation with suboptimal unit compositions (tank/thor).
Thanks for the videoBlog avilo, I hope there's more to come. Someone needs to address this issue and even if this gets many negative responses, it's still good PR for the problem.
Also, your awesome hat is awesome ^^ Merry christmas !
Oh my god. I just watched your video and I was sitting here the whole time doing this:
:o
and shaking my head up and down like yes. yes..yes!!!!!
Its like any time a top 10 terran in the world or some pro event beats some big name guy they nerf Terran. Morrow does the 5x reaper vs idra and its nerfed the next week. Its not until Idra gets completely outplayed with Boxer who studied his play and hit him with an unstoppable timing attack for idra's play style with hellions that they get nerfed. One of the things that you did not mention is that Vikings get DESTROYED SO HARD by Immortals that its so ridiculous. Its like 3 shots and they're dead.
It's like Dustin Browder just watches the pro events and reads the comments and if he see's terran dominate 1 matchup/series like you're saying it gets nerfed.
It's part of the reason why I'm considering just not playing until HOTS. This current game bores me so much as a terran in solo. Protoss has so much stuff like Cols', Storm, which turn into Archons, Bio simply doesn't kill 40 chargelots anymore unless you kyte across map.
I'm Mid-High Terran masters, so I generally have an average skill/knowledge of the game play. I feel that since release Terran has been so much harder at my skill level to play.
I'm not MVP, I'm not MMA, I can't mass marine split vs Zergs perfectly and do 3-4 drops at once during the whole game. Terran needs some help.
Thanks avilo. I always thought your name was "ah-vill-lo" not "ah-vah-lo" rofl.
Anyone that doesn't listen to this guy is an idiot as far as I'm concerned. I can't think of anyone on NA since release that has put more time into massing mech only games. Not only just mech games, but purposely trying to take mech games into late game macro.
Some of my thoughts:
I think they should look into buffing the reaper. Give it that D8 charge thing back but make it a mine. Terran could be so fun if you could open reaper/hellion harass. Set up some defensive mines then move your tanks up into position and build out from there. It would make reapers more viable as well.
To be honest Avilo I don't think Blizzard wants terrans to go just bio or just mech anymore. I think they want a 50/50 combo.
This game is so much about cost efficiency with your units/army and even Bio is just so much more effective it doesn't compare.
I think the biggest difference is that in BW zealots had to run through a mine-field to get to the tanks, but in SC2 the zealots pretty much instantly teleport to the tanks once they get past a certain range.
In broodwar you'd rely on dragoons to do most of the straight up damage to tanks, while the zealots just tank the damage, and then you'd back off unless you had storms, zealot drops, and etcs. to break tank lines... In SC2 the same zealots that teleported through into the tanks' minimum range kill the tanks, and use the tanks' splash damage against themselves...
The hellion damage nerf really hurts against zealots the most imo. You need a way to evaporate a near infinite stream of zealots if you're in good position, be it hellions, or mroe tank damage, or the battle-hellions and shredders coming out in HoTS, that's the main problem especially when you consider that the zealots can pop out of literally anywhere.
I'm curious, have you ever tried shifting gears from a passive mech style to a more aggressive mech style such as the iloveoov build from BW? Instead of relying on that 200/200 3-3 mech army which is impossible to get in sc2, why not get a fast starport and keep protoss back with tons of hellion harrass? The only time you would need tanks is to stop some sort of counter attack at any of your bases. Here is a link to it for reference: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_Build
I do agree with some of your points but not everything. I don't like the fact that your saying that everything protoss has kills mech. Its more the opposite that mech isn't fit to deal with protoss units. Only some units I feel totally crush mech. Such as immortal which is the most stupid unit to create that can kill anything that comes out of a factory. I however don't feel that chargelots kill mech. A lot of mechers don't really run around with their hellions and pick off zealots enough and is a tactic I believe can reduce those zealot counts, kinda like a metagame thing. As for the void ray, I think its fine. Terrans in bw had to make turrets for drops same can be said with void rays. Its just terran will prob need to adapt with vikings instead of thors.
Chargelot - Not quite a big problem if you keep running around with hellions and harassing his zealot army. Also the use of supply depots and barrack + ebay walls.
Void ray - Turrets will suffice long enough while you get your expo. Then you can get vikings with turret pushs. Just like in BW you had to make turrets with your pushes. But I do hate I need to go out of my tech path to deal with void rays since the thor just has a garbage attack speed.
Immortal - Totally bullshit unit. Can't believe they made a unit like this, imo this unit itself is utterly game breaking. Damage is such a core element of this game and to have a unit that can reduce it. But I can see ghost with mech break this so atleast there is an option. This unit breaks any 1-2 base timing pushs possible because you need a ghost to deal with this.
Pylons - I understand the frustration with the problem of trying to cover all the damn angles on the map. But with a little bit more APM you can scout with your hellions then use some vikings to kill them. When you get a group of 10 hellions you can pick them off without vikings.
Warp prism - Just like in BW, terrans had to deal with it like an arbiter and make turrets.
Comparing the seige tank in bw it cost only 2 supply and 25 less gas. This is absolutely huge in late game scenarios. I believe if they just changed the tank back to 100 gas and 2 supply instead of 3 supply I think everythiing can balance out. I strongly feel if they solely just change this aspect mech will be viable enough.
@NB : This is the same guy who said, when Z was severely underpowered before the buff patches, that Zerg players will stop losing if they just start learning to use Nydus. Regardless of how much your skill improved since then, you've always been a heavily T biased character and A-class whiner. Credentials don't mean much when the community already knows what kind of character you are.
I'd like to point out that Thor's strike cannons can be effecively used against immortals. Where immortals should be thor hard-counters, with the cannon they actually rape them. Moreover I say I like this, because I'm not the fan of the hardcounter "thing"(So you should use feedback to overcome this).
Now I liked the old blue flamed hellions (2 shooting drones), I remember raping zergs with them way before it became mainstream. I still think that the nerf was necessary. What I would like Blizzard to actaully do to helions is to make them more microable - less pause + attack and more attack in motion, then play with it's damage&speed.
I agree with you that someting should be done with the tanks. As I posted in the other thread the main difference between BW and SC2 sieged tanks is their splash damage. While in SC2 a large radius of units takes 100% damage(e.g. clumped roaches/blings...). In BW usually only the target unit takes 100% damage while the surrounding units take 50% or less. Target tank takes 69 damage(70 -1 armor). Surrounding tanks take only 34 damage(70/2 -1 armor). Target maring takes 35 damage(70/2, small take 50% from explosive damage). Surrounding marines take only 17.5 damage(70/4, half damage isn't displayed but BW minimum damage is 0.5).
In my opinion the way to go currently in latgame TvP is mass banshee instead of vikings. I mean they cost only 25 more gas a supply more and build time(which you would compensate by making 3 ports with tech lab). Consider the damage: according to liquipedia vikings have 10 air dps, while banshees have nearly 20 ground dps. So even though you won't be able to effectively snipe colossi with 9 range you'll be able to do it twice as fast(+cloak may help too).
Now stalkers are really, really bad against banshees in large numbers even with blink. So when terran has 10+ banshees he needs either templars or phoenixes(or carriers but I leave them out). Templars face a few serious issues: 1. Ghost snipe or emp 2. Mobility - you can just take your banshees to enemy base, take out strategic pylons, core, archives and return home in time for battle. 3. 4 banshee sniping a templar, you leave the rest behind(so storms aren't that effective).
Therefore I think that you need phoenixes to counter mass banshees effectively. Terran can then mix in some thors, but mass marines and ghost do very well against phoenixes. I'm not really sure what protoss can do against this - except maybe switch to carriers? or mothership vortex? Tell me.
I used to mech TvP. Then they put energy back on thors (it was removed in an earlier patch to make mech viable vs. templar play), and hellion damage took an arrow in the knee.
I think the point about the early nerfs that were applicable on the smaller launch maps is very interesting. Of course 2-base tank all-ins were good when you could spawn close on metalopolis, lost temple, steppes of war, etc. Additionally, looking back, several of the early nerfs make no sense in the context of the current metagame. Right after retail I remember zergs having a VERY tough time dealing with Terran drops. Despite Fruitdealer handling Rainbow's drops very well with his infestor play, medivac acceleration and speed were nerfed pretty heavily. Eventually muta/ling/bling caught on, zerg players started spreading overlords and creep, and suddenly drops became something every zerg could deal with. Was that medivac nerf really necessary? That one in particular probably doesn't need to be rolled back (though I personally hate how slow medivacs feel), but I don't think rolling it back would change the balance of the game as it is today either. It seems like a totally unnecessary nerf in the context of the current way the game is played.
I also agree with the points about how fast Blizzard has been to nerf Terran metagame shifts, while leaving other races largely untouched and letting the metagame catch up. That's not to say there can't be counterexamples, but it seems that generally when Terran metagame shifts it's nerfed instead of waiting for the other races to catch up. Really strong zerg and protoss strategies are left alone for several months before being adjusted (infestor, on demand storms w/ ky amulet).
One point that wasn't mentioned was how chargelots mostly auto-spread vs. AoE. If I remember I'll post some video in a unit tester showing how effective this is.
On December 25 2011 05:46 NB wrote: No hate on you but it is REALLY REALLY HARD to trust anything that you said. You have a huge background of QQ-ing in ladder games as well as on forums. It is not that your statements are inaccurate but they are often exaggerated from the original problem.
TvP overall is not even your best match up. I remember watching you bo7 ladder vs minigun and you lose at least 5 or 6 of them. Your image is shattered in my head just as much as combatex or deezer. How about actually win games display your technique instead of complaining how how Terran cant win. And dont even tell me game imbalance... if MMA could win blizzard cup, MVP could win GSL, you have no right to QQ over a ladder game.
My main point is, recently i have seen you trying to take stuff seriously and try to get your name out there and i hope you start from the right place. Once you fix that, i will be fully supportive on what you do.
Love and peace .
I'm confused why you brought up MMA and MVP winning tournaments when they didn't use mech at all TvP....
And I'm actually pretty surprised why you would compare avilo, someone who is tries to contribute and works hard on his game, with known hackers and stream cheaters... Lots of ad hominem there....
I actually do respect avilo for his plays and he really doesn't deserve to be hated on as hard as he does. His style is annoying to play against, so well known pros dislike playing against him. Somehow, this translated into a poor reputation for him...
Anyways, the video brought up some good points. I hope people take it seriously. Besides the koreans, I believe that avilo is one of the more qualified people to talk about mech.
On December 26 2011 00:20 LastWish wrote: I'd like to point out that Thor's strike cannons can be effecively used against immortals. Where immortals should be thor hard-counters, with the cannon they actually rape them. Moreover I say I like this, because I'm not the fan of the hardcounter "thing"(So you should use feedback to overcome this).
Now I liked the old blue flamed hellions (2 shooting drones), I remember raping zergs with them way before it became mainstream. I still think that the nerf was necessary. What I would like Blizzard to actaully do to helions is to make them more microable - less pause + attack and more attack in motion, then play with it's damage&speed.
I agree with you that someting should be done with the tanks. As I posted in the other thread the main difference between BW and SC2 sieged tanks is their splash damage. While in SC2 a large radius of units takes 100% damage(e.g. clumped roaches/blings...). In BW usually only the target unit takes 100% damage while the surrounding units take 50% or less. Target tank takes 69 damage(70 -1 armor). Surrounding tanks take only 34 damage(70/2 -1 armor). Target maring takes 35 damage(70/2, small take 50% from explosive damage). Surrounding marines take only 17.5 damage(70/4, half damage isn't displayed but BW minimum damage is 0.5).
In my opinion the way to go currently in latgame TvP is mass banshee instead of vikings. I mean they cost only 25 more gas a supply more and build time(which you would compensate by making 3 ports with tech lab). Consider the damage: according to liquipedia vikings have 10 air dps, while banshees have nearly 20 ground dps. So even though you won't be able to effectively snipe colossi with 9 range you'll be able to do it twice as fast(+cloak may help too).
Now stalkers are really, really bad against banshees in large numbers even with blink. So when terran has 10+ banshees he needs either templars or phoenixes(or carriers but I leave them out). Templars face a few serious issues: 1. Ghost snipe or emp 2. Mobility - you can just take your banshees to enemy base, take out strategic pylons, core, archives and return home in time for battle. 3. 4 banshee sniping a templar, you leave the rest behind(so storms aren't that effective).
Therefore I think that you need phoenixes to counter mass banshees effectively. Terran can then mix in some thors, but mass marines and ghost do very well against phoenixes. I'm not really sure what protoss can do against this - except maybe switch to carriers? or mothership vortex? Tell me.
I mostly agree with this.
Siege tanks MAY need a slight buff, but not in damage, but as you said, in supply. making the siege tanks cost 2 supply and less gas would make them more mass-able and make them slightly easier to replace. The thing about siege tanks in SC2 vs SC1 that Terrans fail to realize is that the smart-fire of SC2 tanks increase the overall damage output exponentially and thus are more dangerous than SC1 tanks. I would keep the build times the same and buff the cost and supply slightly.
Hellions do need a smaller pause between shots, but then their damage would need to be reduced, per shot to keep DPS unchanged.
Also, to confirm, against anything more than 2 port banshees, Protoss requires 2 stargate Phoenix supported by HTs. I have experimented with skipping stargate and just using stalker/HT to counter the mass banshees, and it just doesn't work without Phoenixes.
I honestly don't know avilo, and I care even less about his rank/league, but I DO care about what he says and his reasoning. It shows, in this video, he really has no solid basis for his arguments. he wavers a lot on his points, and is mostly venting rather than discussing the ins and outs of why Mech "sucks" in his opinion. He simply states situations without taking the time to explain how it is supposed to work and how it doesn't and for what reasons, tactically.
The superficial nature of EVERY single explanation against Mech in his video is biased towards his race, Terran. Sorry, avilo. No offense, but you need to be more specific as to what aspect of Mech is failing and how. There is the general assumption out there by Terran players that when you go mech you have to be turtling like a crazy person and just do that all game long.
What's even funnier is that avilo compares SC2 to Broodwar...
At least in Broodwar, Terrans KNEW how to use their assets to play mech style (because bio was garbage). In SC2, we have a pitiful number of Terrans who have actually tried Mech, and we have only 2 players who have really used Mech at the highest level, with the 1 exception being Jinro (hats off to you for beating MC with mech). Otherwise, we have RELATIVELY low level pros like Goody who have been playing Mech, but have been playing it sub-optimally (not because of the design of mech, but because of limitation in skill).
Just from watching Goody's replays on Day9's show, Goody makes sooo many mistakes with his mech on a regular basis. And, I mean fundamentally bad decisions. He always mass sieges/unsieges tanks, never harasses enough, doesn't bring SCVs (mostly), doesn't build up positions, loses too many fights due to mistakes rather than any weakness in his composition.
Let me address the one point he was trying to make with chargelots. Siege tanks in SC2 do equivalent damage to zealots as they did in SC1. It takes about the same number of shots per tank to down 1 zealot, even with charge. This means that for a 200/200 3-3 tank army to lose to zealots in SC2, 1 of two things must have happened:
1) Terran basically clumped everything together, or did not spread his tanks enough to maximize the range and damage of siege tanks collectively.
2) Terran was not harassing Protoss enough with hellions or even banshees to keep Protoss on inferior bases/economy to ensure Protoss' army cannot be sustained beyond 1-2 attacks + warp-ins.
If Terran is meching, he has to be diligent about checking expansions, killing probes, forcing them off mining, and ensuring that he is using constant hellion counter attacking in tandem with sensor towers covering the siege positions and key drop positions to be able to react quickly to situations where Protoss is trying to use prisms to harass or sneak expansions. Hellions and Tanks are the basic map control tool for Terran, and good positioning of tanks in a long stretch/band that's sparsely populated in nature + support by Thors, ghosts, hellions and even a Raven or 2 will allow Terran to basically secure positions to advance forward and starve Protoss from mining or damaging their core mech army. EMP + tanks + BFHs + Thor damage tanking and DPS make for a nasty combination that any Protoss would not want to deal with with solely a ground army, making them venture into stargate land.
And, know this: Every stargate unit out for Protoss is supply tied up that isn't a ground unit. And if Terran has enough anti-air (via turrets), there is not much else beyond Mothership/vortex and Carriers that Protoss can really use to break siege lines, and we all know how terrible these units are in TvP if scouted.
All in all, I think avilo is just over-reacting to the "mech issue" and should try learning techniques to mech correctly by applying CONCEPTS from Broodwar, not literal translations of mech. His comparison of Vikings to Goliaths just showed how much he is not comparing apples to apples in his vlog... Lore-wise, he'd have a point, but practically gameplay-wise, the viking's role does not overlap with goliaths as much. There are similarities, of course, but his literal comparisons are completely flawed.
I would suggest avilo learn more about meching techniques from Broodwar and previous examples of good mech play from players like IMMvp and NHoSeoJjakji who are basically much higher in skill than he is, and understand the game much better from a tactical standpoint.
Strategy-wise, I agree that opening mech is not exactly possible due to the many aggressive openings Protoss can have against a Terran who does not go bio. But, we aren't really discussing this here; we are focusing more on midgame and lategame TvP where mech is at its peak. The strategy needs to build the infrastructure and all it needs is refinement in execution.
I'd love to see avilo analyze his own replays publicly to state what issues he faced as mech, and actually take the time to explore the reason why he lost a battle, or why he lost due to events leading up to a battle, or post-battle analysis, just like Day 9 does.
That way, we get "less QQ and more pew-pew" from his opinions
I'd mostly agree that some of the beta patch changes were balanced on terrible maps and deserve another glance. And yea, cost of armory upgrades could use a rebalance as well.
I honestly don't know avilo, and I care even less about his rank/league, but I DO care about what he says and his reasoning. It shows, in this video, he really has no solid basis for his arguments. he wavers a lot on his points, and is mostly venting rather than discussing the ins and outs of why Mech "sucks" in his opinion. He simply states situations without taking the time to explain how it is supposed to work and how it doesn't and for what reasons, tactically.
The superficial nature of EVERY single explanation against Mech in his video is biased towards his race, Terran. Sorry, avilo. No offense, but you need to be more specific as to what aspect of Mech is failing and how. There is the general assumption out there by Terran players that when you go mech you have to be turtling like a crazy person and just do that all game long.
Every aspect of mech is failing. The 200/200 composition isn't strong enough BY FAR. You can't leave 3 tanks in you base to defend against blink stalker harass. You need every single tank, perfectly spread out, with perfect EMP's on EVERY single immortal and perfect focus firing with vikings and then you will BARELY win the fight. But if the protoss was smart he just grabbed a 3rd at minute 6 like a zerg(Look Jinro vs Axslav) and he will have 20 gates and you die. Nothing works. Jinro has tried mech very thorough and any Starcraft 1 player has, just because that's what they were used too. Avilo also used to mech alot
Just from watching Goody's replays on Day9's show, Goody makes sooo many mistakes with his mech on a regular basis. And, I mean fundamentally bad decisions. He always mass sieges/unsieges tanks, never harasses enough, doesn't bring SCVs (mostly), doesn't build up positions, loses too many fights due to mistakes rather than any weakness in his composition.
Goody has stopped playing Mech because of the immortal buff in TvP. Also the only reason Goody won anything is because protoss have exactly ZERO experience playing against mech. They probably played like 5 ladder games total against a meching terran. You also have this sky terran bullshit, you can be like LOOK LOOK HE WINS WITH SKY TERRAN MUST BE GOOD! But it's not, it's just a novelty.
Let me address the one point he was trying to make with chargelots. Siege tanks in SC2 do equivalent damage to zealots as they did in SC1. It takes about the same number of shots per tank to down 1 zealot, even with charge. This means that for a 200/200 3-3 tank army to lose to zealots in SC2, 1 of two things must have happened:
That's very nice. But tanks in Brood war were 2 food. So you had 10 more of them.
2) Terran was not harassing Protoss enough with hellions or even banshees to keep Protoss on inferior bases/economy to ensure Protoss' army cannot be sustained beyond 1-2 attacks + warp-ins.
I've seen Jinro lose killing 50 probes. Also, a couple of cannons at every expansion wich you can very well afford going against mech shuts down any harassment. This + Warpgate.
If Terran is meching, he has to be diligent about checking expansions, killing probes, forcing them off mining, and ensuring that he is using constant hellion counter attacking in tandem with sensor towers covering the siege positions and key drop positions to be able to react quickly to situations where Protoss is trying to use prisms to harass or sneak expansions. Hellions and Tanks are the basic map control tool for Terran, and good positioning of tanks in a long stretch/band that's sparsely populated in nature + support by Thors, ghosts, hellions and even a Raven or 2 will allow Terran to basically secure positions to advance forward and starve Protoss from mining or damaging their core mech army. EMP + tanks + BFHs + Thor damage tanking and DPS make for a nasty combination that any Protoss would not want to deal with with solely a ground army, making them venture into stargate land
Yeah in a world where you could actually have enough tanks this would work yes. But your main army just isn't strong enough. Protoss just rolls over it, even if you do everything perfect. Also protoss is the one forcing engagements on most maps so you will never have a perfect position.
I would suggest avilo learn more about meching techniques from Broodwar and previous examples of good mech play from players like IMMvp and NHoSeoJjakji who are basically much higher in skill than he is, and understand the game much better from a tactical standpoint.
That's why IMMvp never plays mech. And Jjajki only ever did this one weird thor banshee, snipe observer all in. Mech is not viable.
Strategy-wise, I agree that opening mech is not exactly possible due to the many aggressive openings Protoss can have against a Terran who does not go bio. But, we aren't really discussing this here; we are focusing more on midgame and lategame TvP where mech is at its peak. The strategy needs to build the infrastructure and all it needs is refinement in execution.
So you agree mech opening isn't possible. It's by the way not for the reason you stated. It's because the protoss can get a 3rd super quickly if they are smart and have any experience playing against mech. You can hold any all in, barely and after 100 games of practice. You can't bio into mech. IMMvp tried that once. It failed, you will be so far behind in upgrades and your mech infrastructure but you also won't have any good bio production so you have no aggressive potential and the protoss can get a 4th, and a 5th without you doing anything at all. he makes 100 gates and you lose.
Please, all these non terran players who have never tried mech should really... Just play it for a 100 games.
Hi Avilo, great job on the vlog! Talking for a long time on one topic can be quite hard. Can you please post a ton of tvp mech replays? I understand and respect your position on mech, but I would still love to see how it wins and how it loses.
I dunno, been playing terran for a while now, and I agree that mech doesn't seem viable, but I don't think it's in any way crucial that mech remains viable. I do think the late game TvP clashes are stupid, but I don't think they're imbalanced.
If I could change one mech unit in a way that probably wouldn't totally break the game (but it still might), I would reduce the attack animation time for the hellion, not the cool-down or the damage or anything else, just make them better with more micro so they're not stuck there for a second because you decided to attack something. It might make them micro-able against roaches again (which is not necessarily a good thing as they're already pretty good. I think maybe make it so it's just long enough that if you do it 100% perfectly you don't get hit by the roach, but if you're moving towards a roach moving towards you, you will get hit 100% of the time.
This could be game-breaking in TvZ though and would have all kinds of other consequences for earlygame TvP. I think ravens could have more use in battle if they made auto-turret cast more like infested terran (not the delay, just that it can basically land anywhere, doesn't need a giant 2x2 square to be empty.
I agree with pretty much everything you say. Though, Sky-Mech is something that has not been explored very much, specifically the Banshee. It has cloak, and therefore can defend against blinkstalker harassment if you kill the observer, or observers, with some Vikings and a Raven for PDD to tank stalker shots, as such you might have a squad of 3-5 banshees, 1-3 vikings, and 1-2 raven(s) to defend against blinkstalker harassment. Banshees are also very good against immortals, zealots, and colossus.
Two things that I think blizzard should definitely implement, are the Viking ground mode buff, and Armory buff. The Engineering bay has more use, though it costs 125 minerals while the Armory costs 150/100 and 'only' unlocks upgrades, and the Thor. I wonder about Thor rushes, and the Tank buff. A buff to the tank damage versus Shields, or re-working Shields would work. Remember that Banshees have never been nerfed, only buffed. Ravens are also extremely useful.
That's a lot of gas Fencer. You can't really go Mech + a lot of air.
I've seen viking, banshee, PPD raven, and a lot of hellions really mess up Protoss. However that's mainly all air. If they add Phoenix I could see going some Thor and having the Banshee focus down the Immortals, however what Avilo is talking about is mainly a pure ground/mech army.
It's a shame this vlog didn't more interest, I think it was extremely well done.
Hey guys, I just made another video, this time discussing Terran versus Protoss late game that everyone right now is having a lot of trouble with from bronze all the way to pro level. Check it out
On January 20 2012 12:59 vileIllusion wrote: Avilo, what is the best and most efficient way to set up turrets around my entire base?? How many sensor towers required per base. + Show Spoiler +
BOB THE BUILDER <3
lmao yeah there are actually optimal ways that people don't ever pay attention to...that might actually be a good idea for another video haha.
Avilo, you're a boss. You definitely take the time and analyze the match up very well.
The strategy is interesting. Basically turtle and sit back and nuke abuse with bio support drops while teching to mass BCs. There's a few things that I want to ask about. I know that you have way way way more in game experience than me and are just a better player so sorry if I don't understand why you do something.
I personally don't feel that BCs are cost effective. With the combination of Stalkers which do I think 4 damage per attack extra vs BCs, blink, templar feed backs, archons requiring 2 yamatos that BCs can get beat early on. I guess this is all irrelevant if you get some sick EMPs off on their army before engaging, however you can say that about any Protoss army vs Terran army as long as you get EMPs off first the Protoss army is much weaker.
I agree about your sitting back part. Terran's do need to sit back more and strategically dismantle their Protoss enemy until its clear that you're ahead. I hope your videos don't turn into "How to play 45 min games vs all races than auto attack to win" Because that was what that video was basically. I also like how you completely shut down Warp Prism harass. Solid sensor towers and mass turrets. You have to look at the Turrets as an investment. When I play Mass Mutas I have no problems putting down 6-7 turrets because I know my CC/SCVs won't be harassed. It's worth it in my opinion at my skill level (mid-high masters).
The 10-15 zealot warp in which makes you kyte all the way back to your base is so true. I can't tell you how many times I would be 200/200 vs a Protoss and win the fight with like 10 hurt marauders left, and his next warp in would just defeat me. It actually pisses me off so bad.
This brings me to what I am suggesting you try out. Blue Flame Hellions. First off, don't even make marines. Late game vs Col's, Storm, Chargelots, etc.. Marines just melt. Marauders don't kill chargelots, but they also don't die instantly vs those thinks that I just mentioned.
There was a point in your game where you have a nice MMM army + 5-6 ghosts + 7-8 vikings vs his Cols, Stalkers, sentry, templar, and mass Chargelot. You could win that fight fairly clean with solid EMP's and good positioing/micro. Now if you traded in your 20 marines for 10 blue flame hellions? Emp the chargelots, send in the BFH's to do some attacking/kyting and destroy most of his Chargelots, then just auto attack with your Marauder, Viking.
I'm working on a strategy where my production buildings are like 7-8 brac with tech labs, 2 factors with reactors for hellions only, and 2-3 starports (1 reactor 1-2 tech labs). With these production buildings you can successfully do this:
If you see mass Zealot, pump hellion heavy. (these can also be used for drops) and also sending 3-4 hellions in to pick off slow ass templars before a fight is very cost effective. If you see mass Stalker/Cols just go mass Marauder and Viking If you see mass Immortals because of you going for heavy BFH's then pump some banshee from those 2 tech lab ports.
I really feel that gives you a variety of attacking options and gives you the path to have all of your tech routes open to give fast tech switches vs the Protoss player. Using Hellions is also easier to send the group of 10-12 of them back to your base and shut down the warp prism harass. They do decent vs Stalkers as well in small numbers if Microed decently.
The only thing I'm worried about with my strategy is early Void Ray so I still make marines early but shut them down fast.
I feel like from watching your vods that you're too stuck on going "either" just Bio/Air, or just Mech. Blizzard is really balancing Terran to have to include a solid combination. BFH's rape every gate way unit besides Stalker. However there's some statistical number out there that shows BFHs can be cost effective vs Stalkers. However you don't have to do that, just make Marauder.
I've also seen some cute "Air Terran" strats that go 1-2 Raven for PPD and to see the Observers, pick off the Obs with viking, then go in with the cloak banshee and just win. I don't see a need for your 45 minute turtle style, wait for 20 BCs, then auto attack. Plus that player seemed really terrible to be honest. Have you tried your BC strat vs bigger name Protoss players?
The point of my strat is mass up on some Hellions, force Stalker (which is good because), then you get marauder and kill the Stalker, VIking for cols//and.or//Banshee for Immos.
On January 20 2012 12:16 avilo wrote: Hey guys, I just made another video, this time discussing Terran versus Protoss late game that everyone right now is having a lot of trouble with from bronze all the way to pro level. Check it out
you should make a new blog since you made a a new video, that way it gets more views and etc.
It was a pretty cool game!
Also, since you talk about beign defensive a lot, I feel like it's not completely correct, I think that you can engage a Protoss even when he's maxed, because if you both lose your army he loses more money, you just gotta play defensive after the engagement and you gotta engange on his side of the map in that scenario, because you don't want to trade armies completely on your side of the map (until you have the planetaries and stuff up,) because then he'll just warp in zealots and kill your shit like you said, but if you engage on his side of the map, you can kill a lot of his gas-expensive units, and regroup back on your side, so that if he attacks with zealots you have more stuff.
And also that sometimes protosses (like the guy you played) will be very greedy and once they're near maxed spend all their money on nexuses without getting enough gateways, and in that case he actually can't warp in enough stuff, so in that scenario if you can get a good engagements you can just win straight up because he won't have enough warp-ins to deflect the remainder of your bio, so that's another thing to watch out for imo.
A very awesome stream with amazing mods and regulars and Avilo's play is insanely good, especially his mech play! Also a very good teacher. I wish he was more known.
My Question is, how i would do that style on other Maps, especially on Tal'Darim or Antigua (how to defend 4th and 5th base?). The thing is, on Shakuras you can split the map very well cause of the small path P has to come through, while on Tal'Darim P can simply run around your Planetary setup (would be REALLY expensive to cut the Map in Half with a row of Planetaries). Without having the P go thourgh this massive defensive line in that spot, he can steamroll you from somewhere else.
Can't remember if it was DK or DB but one of them said that they know Terran only has a Mid-game window to win games and that at the moment they are okay with it. Its kind of total bullshit, I really think nothing will be done in WOL.
On June 19 2012 13:54 Nizzy wrote: Can't remember if it was DK or DB but one of them said that they know Terran only has a Mid-game window to win games and that at the moment they are okay with it. Its kind of total bullshit, I really think nothing will be done in WOL.
They didn't just say "we are ok with it at the moment" . They didn't even acknowledge it as a problem.
In their eyes, it's perfectly OK for a race to have a 5 minute timing window to win, and if they don't they get a huge disadvantage through no fault of their own. With that approach, it might actually NEVER get addressed.
This is just flat out bad game design. Imagine if someone starting taking chess pieces off your board after 10 turns, just because you were playing black pieces? Would that be fair at all?
On June 19 2012 13:54 Nizzy wrote: Can't remember if it was DK or DB but one of them said that they know Terran only has a Mid-game window to win games and that at the moment they are okay with it. Its kind of total bullshit, I really think nothing will be done in WOL.
They didn't just say "we are ok with it at the moment" . They didn't even acknowledge it as a problem.
In their eyes, it's perfectly OK for a race to have a 5 minute timing window to win, and if they don't they get a huge disadvantage through no fault of their own. With that approach, it might actually NEVER get addressed.
This is just flat out bad game design. Imagine if someone starting taking chess pieces off your board after 10 turns, just because you were playing black pieces? Would that be fair at all?
you don't have to tell me this Sadist, however thanks for correcting me.
I agree terrible game design. You know, I feel like nobody questions Browder. Yes, he has a lot of RTS experience, from a worst RTS game (sorry CnC cant touch SC:BW)...
Its very possible he's taking the game in the wrong direction. I FUCKING HATE HIS LOGIC. No browder noob players dont want noob maps. They want to play on the exact same maps as the pros. Not fucking slag pits. What makes the game sick is "basic units" and then the pros turning those basic units into gosu things.
Not fucking units like the viper that can pull free 6 thors from your army before the big fight even starts. Just stupid shit all around.
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A lot of people are saying ravens, cant wait til ravens get nerfed.
see i think you make some really good points here, and i actually just want to kind of take back what i was saying in the SoTG thread, cause you are clearly an intelligent terran player, with a good idea of the problems with the TvZ matchup. i also want to ask, did you see the MKP games in the GSL last night? cause there was one game (i don't have VODs so i can't look up which one) in which the zerg basically had the entire (and i mean the ENTIRE) map covered in creep by about 10 minutes i think. and it wasn't like MKP wasn't killing off creep tumors, it was just like the creep was unstoppable. i don't know if this was a queen-patch issue, but it seems somewhat connected cause the only time i ever saw creep spread like that was when i was a bronzie playing against a master zerg friend of mine (and MKP ain't no bronzie)
i actually think the warhound especially (and the battle hellion a bit) helps the TvP late-game issues, of course i haven't played any HotS and im in no way good or knowledgeable enough to truly comment on it, but it seems like it could help a lot just based on the specs of the new units. but i absolutely agree that the HSM isn't really a viable option against late-game zerg because (again MKP's gsl games) Symbol, I believe, was just splitting his units, the HSM didn't do anything. granted, Symbol is really good, but i think that is kind of irrelevant because every pro should have enough APM to split against the HSM when a plat terran player like me can do it (i've tried).
i actually think the ghost nerf was just too much. now, maybe the ghost was stronger than it should be, i don't know, but if you think about it, it wasn't something that was "a-movey", snipe actually did get exponentially better with better micro (which is something i think is good to have with units.) they basically destroyed the ghost as what it was and turned it into a purely anti-caster/protoss-shield-killer unit, which im not a big fan of. both the infestor and the high templar are actually battle units, not just anti-casters. i guess a patch to the raven would help, but i think the raven's "proper" (for lack of a better term) position is as a supporting unit, not a straight up battle unit (if this makes any sense at all, probably not.)
what im wondering about is if terran's were given a more solid late-game compostion, or units or strategy or whatever, then would reversing the queen buff really be necessary? it seems to me that the new queen helps zergs (a lot) in the early-mid game, and that it only really affects the late-game based on the fact that Terran already has weak late game and now it's super hard to do good damage in the early game so you can "balance" the late-game weaknesses and strengths. if terran early game is "too strong" (i don't know if it is or not, im on the fence kind of) without the queen buff, than im thinking that they should keep the queen buff, but just tweak terran a bit for a stronger mid-late game so that they can hold off zerg pushes, or maybe even tweak our early game econ/unit strength so that terran's can respond to both pressure and greed in kind.
this is rambling though and i don't know if it makes any sense. im glad i watched the TvZ video though cause it gave me a new perspective on your opinions and i actually pretty much agree with everything you were saying. GG.
pre-post-edit: oh wow that was a lot longer than i thought it would be... don't worry if you don't read this monstrosity, i doubt that i would if i hadn't written it.
post-post edit: oh and i actually agree now that they should have let you on SoTG (but that's another topic i guess) now that i've seen the video, because you actually are pretty articulate and straightforward when discussing balance. just wanted to throw that out there.
last edit i swear: i also forgot to ask, and ive always meant to ask a good terran this: what do you think about late-game nukes? viable, not viable, useless, perhaps more useful if the ghost was better, or what? maybe im just dumb, but iv always wondered why there never seems to be nukes going off except in lategame TvT seige lines.
Since i'm in the HOTS Beta now I'll be posting my thoughts / videos about the beta regarding balance, design, and how the metagame is evolving. Here is the first video guys OP is updated as well.
New video guys, casting a replay i played with thoughts on the new widow mine, mech tvp becoming viable, and how protoss players will adapt to play better against widow mines and mech. OP is updated as well
New video series guys, "avilo HOTS Metagame Update", will be doing these at least weekly during the course of the beta (along with other random thought videos )
It's so much nicer to see avilo driving his car...usually he's driving me crazy. And for those who know that I use the Komandirskie account - no, that dude is not arkansassy.
On October 16 2012 05:49 codonbyte wrote: I thought Avilo did a great job of not being biased in these videos.
Thanks :D
On October 16 2012 06:07 Arkansassy wrote: It's so much nicer to see avilo driving his car...usually he's driving me crazy. And for those who know that I use the Komandirskie account - no, that dude is not arkansassy.
Avilo...keep warm in HOTS. :D
lol, i drive ya crazy yes, people prob are confused since they've seen you use komandirskie account, seen me use it, then my brother uses the username
100% agree with your post regarding the metagame. The game has gotten incredibly boring due to turtle into bl/infestor. Late game shouldn't be a carbon copy in every matchup like it is these days with zerg. And since Terran is so rare outside the GSL there is so much of the absolutely awful ZvP matchup I can't stand it. That's certainly why I've stopped watching SC2.
EPT
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