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this post is ruining esports
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I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2.
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On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here.
He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation.
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Having haters and rude people attacking you is validation that you're providing thought provoking ideas. Some people will say "wow" thanks for showing me that, and other will reject your assessment and get angry about it, maybe even attack you ad hominem.
It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the individuals you are communicating with out there. There are lots of them, some are smart, some are dumb, some are nice, some are mean.... but as you grow in a community or in popularity you are going to get exposed to MORE of them. This means MORE of all type of interactions.
Anything that can be said about you..... will be said about you eventually. Does it matter if people write it, or say it, or just think it? What does any of it matter? Don't let it affect you... sticks and stones make break my bones but words will never hurt me.
What you can control is your sensitivity to it and in the long run that's the best way to beat the haters. Make them powerless to affect you.... you control what and who affects you.
Easy for me to write, I know not easy to do. Step back, think about things then realize you have the power to control the situation.
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I wonder whom is going to translate MLG now?
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On October 30 2011 02:49 Naded wrote:
I wonder whom is going to translate MLG now?
Well... anyone who can speak both languages would seem a safe bet.
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If you don't want to put up with a bunch of trolling cowards who only act like idiots from the security of their computer monitor I don't blame you. What you posted was controversial, but you really didn't deserve the attacks on your integrity and the like.
Yeah you could "grow a thicker skin" as so many here have suggested, but at the end of the day that decision would be a personal choice that needs to be weighted against the other aspects of the situation. If having to deal with this aspect of it makes you leave the community- so be it.
Don't know if you'll stick with the choice you made, but good luck regardless! Best of wishes.
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I don't know about all this drama, but I read your reddit post and I agree 100% with it, you just presented it to an audience that isn't trying to hear it
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On October 30 2011 02:43 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:42 1Eris1 wrote:
Honestly that thread is just one of a billion examples of why Reddit is terrible site and why I've never posted there,
Thank you Milkis. I agree with probably 99.99% of whatever you have ever said and thought you were a nice guy and great contributor to the community. It's sad that other people can't seem to see it that way.
Wish you the best, and hopefully one day you'll decide to return. You're delusional if you think the same appreciate majority and negative minority don't exist in both /r/sc and TL. Every thread of his was met with the same 99.9% appreciation and .1% troll that exists in every area of the internet. It is not specific to /r/sc or TL. Hell, just look at the post below this one.
Of course every place has it's assholes/trolls/losers/rapists, etc. Reddit just has a lot more of them, and doesn't do much about it. I don't want to start a reddit vs tl fight though, so just forget it.
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Way to much drama. The internet is a scary place, you did the right thing by bowing out now before the pressure really starts to climb.
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Good job /r/starcraft. YOU DONE GOOFED.
THE CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.
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On October 30 2011 02:49 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:49 Naded wrote:
I wonder whom is going to translate MLG now? Well... anyone who can speak both languages would seem a safe bet.
Thanks, I just spit coffee all over my keyboard.
I'm not sure why I found that so funny.
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On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner.
Even TL wouldn't have been a perfect place to post it, but similar posts and attitudes can be found all over the BW (and at times blog sections) and they generally reasonable responses, because that's what the BW forum is for. I agree that he's in an even tougher spot because he is an SC2 community figure who comes out and claims that SC2 isn't that great after all.
Next to that, while I have always appreciated (and at times supported, Milkis vs EG debacle), he is not an 'authority' on how much fun a game is as an e-sport. That's an intrinsically personal opinion, and not something that's up for debate in the first place. You try convincing an ice-dancing fan to watch the NBA. No matter who the community figure is, claiming that something that a community loves is infact not all that good/fun, is going to get you spat out.
He really should have seen this reaction coming and it seems like an excuse to quit rather then the actual reason.
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So I think that I understand what happened. If I understand this correctly, Milkis posts a really elitist opinion while basically mocking everything that isn't brood war, gets called out for it by DJWheat and others, then quits. I actually really like Milkis's translating but in this case he had it coming.
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On October 30 2011 02:49 zawk9 wrote:
If you don't want to put up with a bunch of trolling cowards who only act like idiots from the security of their computer monitor I don't blame you. What you posted was controversial, but you really didn't deserve the attacks on your integrity and the like.
Yeah you could "grow a thicker skin" as so many here have suggested, but at the end of the day that decision would be a personal choice. Don't know if you'll stick with the choice you made, but good luck regardless! Best of wishes.
If he just had decided that being in the public eye isn't for him - that would've been fine to me but making a huge drama post about it was really unessecary in my opinion,
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On October 30 2011 02:50 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:43 ski107 wrote:On October 30 2011 02:42 1Eris1 wrote:
Honestly that thread is just one of a billion examples of why Reddit is terrible site and why I've never posted there,
Thank you Milkis. I agree with probably 99.99% of whatever you have ever said and thought you were a nice guy and great contributor to the community. It's sad that other people can't seem to see it that way.
Wish you the best, and hopefully one day you'll decide to return. You're delusional if you think the same appreciate majority and negative minority don't exist in both /r/sc and TL. Every thread of his was met with the same 99.9% appreciation and .1% troll that exists in every area of the internet. It is not specific to /r/sc or TL. Hell, just look at the post below this one. Of course every place has it's assholes/trolls/losers/rapists, etc. Reddit just has a lot more of them, and doesn't do much about it. I don't want to start a reddit vs tl fight though, so just forget it.
Fair enough.
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I mean why make such a blatantly antagonising post if you can't handle the predictable rage its going to generate?
You can;t sit there like a martyr saying "I didn't want any of this" when you posted in a gaming forum full of passionate, competitive gamers that "anything that isn't BW isn't esports".
If you can't handle the responses, I don't understand why you don't just keep that kind of antagonising commentary to yourself.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On October 30 2011 02:49 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:49 Naded wrote:
I wonder whom is going to translate MLG now? Well... anyone who can speak both languages would seem a safe bet.
To be fair, translating accurately and quickly is difficult. Milkis was one of, if not, the best.
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On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation.
There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it.
Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit.
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Wait! What?! No moar Milkis fighting. Your elitist and what of it!!! Many may not like it especially those "Johnny come lately" types regardless it takes all kinds. Lick your wounds if you must but most definitely come back and keep on fighting. Should it remain your decision to stay away rest assured you will be missed.
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EPT
