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I've been thinking a lot lately about the foreigner/Korean gap in SC2 after having watched IEM Guangzhou, IPL 3, and MLG Orlando. A lot of people including the big shots on LO3/SOTG/ITG saying that foreigners are catching up, the Koreans are looking mortal, etc. etc.
But I'm going to argue that the foreigner gap isn't all that close. It's become closer with these three huge tournament wins under the foreigner belt, but not nearly as close as as people think. Here's why: let's take a look at the three foreigners that actually won. HuK and IdrA are both long time established monsters, and Stephano's this weird French guy coming out of left field. Barring Stephano, it's really only a matter of time that HuK and IdrA won something big (again). And Stephano has said he'll quit SC2 very very soon to go back to school.
For everyone else who is not an IdrA or HuK, the foreigner gap really hasn't closed. Although Incontrol was talking about how "Koreans looked mortal", does anyone really think that someone like Incontrol (no disrespect to the man, keep doing what you do) is going to beat ONE, never mind TWO Koreans in a Bo3 set any time soon? All the non-IdrA's and HuK's are still performing decently well in tournaments only to hit the Korean wall and bouncing on their asses. Top 8 spots at Orlando were STILL 6 Koreans, with HuK and IdrA as the exceptions.
Let's take a look at the Idra vs Bomber series at MLG Orlando as further concrete example of really how big the foreigner gap is. Specifically, their game on Shakuras. Idra's play was fantastic, flawless, monstrous, of "Nestea in top form" proportions. Idra repeatedly crushed Bomber's army. He denied drops around the map. He killed the armory and both engineering bays TWICE to delay the +3/+2 infantry upgrades. He repeatedly razed the third or the fourth of Bomber. Despite all this, for the majority of the game Bomber rarely fell below 150 supply and had a MASSIVE army at all times. Throughout the entire game the feeling I had was that Idra only had to make ONE moderate mistake at any given time in the last 20 minutes of the game for Bomber to move out with his army and just kill him. Nobody should kid themselves, if it was any foreigner besides Idra playing, not Ret, not HayprO, not Sheth, maybe Stephano, they would have lost eventually.
Finally, I'm going to introduce something I call the "Korean Slaying Factor". Some foreigners have it, some don't. Basically what it is is the something certain foreigners have that let them remain a consistent threat against Koreans. In my opinion, these following players have shown themselves to have the Korean Slaying Factor (that I know of, I may be missing a few):
IdrA
HuK
ThorzaiN
Stephano
JinrO (Borderline, based on past performances)
SaSe (up and coming, time will tell)
This list isn't including the "one/two hit wonders" such as QXC's all-killing, VP.Chance 2:0 MKP in IPL3 quali's, Haypro 2:1 BoxeR at Orlando, etc. I'm not even including White-Ra here, since although he's capable of sniping a Korean or two in best-of-ones at any given time I don't see him consistently taking best of threes. These are the players that seem to have broken through the Korean wall, and are dangerous enough to be able to repeatedly take down the best of the best Koreans. There are other players such as Ret, Naniwa, and Strelok who, although they perform extremely well versus foreigners, always seem to fall short at the first faint whiff of kimchi.
So there you have it. It's my opinion that the foreigner gap is still there and very fucking scary for all but a small group of hardy foreign talent who seem to be able to cross this gap at will. Of course we will have IdrA, HuK, and hopefully ThorzaiN to lead the charge in foreign tournaments with Korean invites, but hopefully we can also have some other foreigners step it the fuck up and realize that it's not enough to simply bask in the shadows of the elite few. This battle isn't ever truly over until a Foreigner stands as a GSL champion atop a mound of Korean corpses.
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First I'd like to point out that any Korean talent in StarCraft goes to Brood War, not SC2. This is very, very important.
Boxer doesn't really practice a whole lot (he's concentrating a lot more on coaching and managing Slayers) and he made so many mistakes that series, I almost stopped watching out of sadness of seeing the Emperor play like that.
Idra was a B-team Brood War pro player. Most Koreans in SC2 from BW were B-team at best, the only exceptions being MVP (whose A-team status was for a poor team at that) and ForGG iirc. ForGG just joined an SC2 team, and he's already kicking ass and taking names, and he was falling on pretty hard times in BW when he switched to SC2. All the other Korean SC2 pro players are people who couldn't make it into the big leagues, that is, Brood war, the 3rd or 4th most popular pro sport in Korea. So Idra performing well decently against them isn't surprising.
Huk and Stephano aren't old foreign Brood War heroes, but seem to be really good.
Jinro was good when the game was still very young and anything could go either way. Same goes for guys like FruitDealer. Now that things have normalized, and strategies and counters and gameplay styles have been learned and figured out, Jinro's style just doesn't hold up unfortunately :/.
So, other than Idra, Huk, and Stephano, I just don't see anyone really being at the Korean level of play.
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On October 21 2011 17:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
First I'd like to point out that any Korean talent in StarCraft goes to Brood War, not SC2. This is very, very important.
I would contest that point at the moment, the most recent draft had a pretty pitiful showing and the teams are certainly experiencing a decrease in B-teamers. While I would still say more young people are interested in BW, I wouldn't deal in absolutes like you seem to and I definitely think a somewhat sizable amount of young people are getting into SC2, there are some sick young guys in the GSL remember, look at kids like Creator, Leenock, Maru. Those guys are like 14-16
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If you only watched MLG the gap until the last one looked ridiculous.
If not you realised that most Koreans looked mortal at all times and dropped games/series...
If you remember:
Assembly? Nada dropped out early, Huk too....
Dreamhack 1? No Korean in the final.
IEM i don't know where? Killer out in Groupstage.
TSL3? You know that story
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There is a gap, but it was never as big as various MLG's with their lackluster lineups would make you think. Don't get me wrong, it is significant.. But at MLG's Korean slooked like unbeatable, which they never were.
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Yeah, right now there's probably only 5 players who could hang with even code A players right now, but the idea was that almost no foreigner could have made it past the ro16 in code A prior to these 3 events. It's still huge as hell overall, I mean, code B/ro32 terran boxer nearly took out the two best foreign zergs in a row, and if it weren't for extended series idra would have been stopped short.
The thing is, if idra and stephano go into GSL I don't think they'd last or do nearly as well as these past few tournies. GSL gives players time to prepare, and these guys are incredibly straightforward and predictable because of the tournaments they play. They don't think about what build they're gonna use on a particular map, they just typically go for what they use on ladder or just any situation. IPL3 stc gets 3-1'd by stephano, next event he 2-0s stephano in open bracket after getting tips from thewind.
In any case, just because you can take out a code S player in a bo3 doesn't mean you can win GSL any time soon.
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Mana? Yeh he loses but you cant say in the last few other then IEM NY he has beat koreans on LANS. So I do think that the is a few who can win bo3's.
I think the major factor is fear. Something I think idra has struggaled with which has stopped him imrpvoing even more.
Now games are being taken off the Koreans more often the fear factor is slowly fading and while the Koreans are still a lot higher in overall skill due to being able to play in an enviroment thats great for improving I think the more foreign players will take games off them, even in IEM New York think it was only one Korean who actually got through 3-0 from the groups.
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On October 21 2011 18:10 Tommylew wrote:
Mana? Yeh he loses but you cant say in the last few other then IEM NY he has beat koreans on LANS. So I do think that the is a few who can win bo3's.
I think the major factor is fear. Something I think idra has struggaled with which has stopped him imrpvoing even more.
Now games are being taken off the Koreans more often the fear factor is slowly fading and while the Koreans are still a lot higher in overall skill due to being able to play in an enviroment thats great for improving I think the more foreign players will take games off them, even in IEM New York think it was only one Korean who actually got through 3-0 from the groups.
This.
Whether or not the skill gap has actually diminished, the best thing to come out of these foreigner victories is that the aura of invulnerability has been taken away from the Koreans. It's like in sports, where there is some guy who dominates the scene for a year and looks unstoppable. Then for some reason he loses a game, and all of a sudden he starts dropping games to random people who you never thought he could lose to before. Say what you want about mechanical skill, but the psychological factor is also huge in SC2. Believing that you can beat these guys is really important, and I think we're gonna see foreigners taking more games off Koreans in the future.
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On October 21 2011 17:41 Lyter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 17:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
First I'd like to point out that any Korean talent in StarCraft goes to Brood War, not SC2. This is very, very important.
I would contest that point at the moment, the most recent draft had a pretty pitiful showing and the teams are certainly experiencing a decrease in B-teamers. While I would still say more young people are interested in BW, I wouldn't deal in absolutes like you seem to and I definitely think a somewhat sizable amount of young people are getting into SC2, there are some sick young guys in the GSL remember, look at kids like Creator, Leenock, Maru. Those guys are like 14-16
I believe the decrease in B-teamers is mostly due to the fact that teams are trying to save money. I think there is still a decent number of talented amateurs available but the teams don't recruit them. Especially since two teams disbanded recently and there are good players available.
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Most of the players you listed spent a significant amount of time training in Korea...
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On October 21 2011 21:06 mizU wrote:
Most of the players you listed spent a significant amount of time training in Korea...
Training sure leads to results doesn't it.
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On October 21 2011 21:06 mizU wrote:
Most of the players you listed spent a significant amount of time training in Korea...
Well there you go, perfectly supports my point. There are still many players such as Naniwa, Sjow, Select, who have/are training in Korea but haven't shown any real results yet.
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On October 21 2011 17:41 Lyter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 17:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
First I'd like to point out that any Korean talent in StarCraft goes to Brood War, not SC2. This is very, very important.
I would contest that point at the moment, the most recent draft had a pretty pitiful showing and the teams are certainly experiencing a decrease in B-teamers. While I would still say more young people are interested in BW, I wouldn't deal in absolutes like you seem to and I definitely think a somewhat sizable amount of young people are getting into SC2, there are some sick young guys in the GSL remember, look at kids like Creator, Leenock, Maru. Those guys are like 14-16
I don't think age has anything to do with a game like sc2 when you're looking at prospects. There can be a 25 year old prospect, and there can be a 14 year old future potential, but it really doesn't matter in something that doesn't require physical exertion, and you can hit your prime/hit your lowest at any point in time.
I don't think code A is getting harder than the past few seasons, but I think it's just because a lot of the weaker players in the GSL overall (code S mostly) are getting weeded out and letting new players from code A in. The past 2 months there's been a HUGE surge in new talent rising in code A and they're just getting into code S and making names for themselves. Taeja, jjakji, curious, Oz, etc. are all relatively new to the scene, but right now it's slowing down a bit. I don't think we're going to get a new pool of players like that for a while now.
Next season I predict it's gonna be mainly some of the older players who were knocked down trying to get back in, rather than seeing more no names surprising us.
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Has there been any doping in the foreinger scene like in css?
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There are a lot of foreigners who can take games and series of koreans, though not yet consistently enough. The only reason why most foreigners fall in the first round of Code A is that they enter it right after flying to korea, not after getting more aquainted with the playstyle of Koreans.
A big example of that are Thorzain, Naniwa and Fenix who had to play the day after they arrived in Korea when they were still jetlagged. Only a day later in GSTL Thorzain showed that he is a lot better than what he was able to show in his Code A games. Also, did you see how Thorzain used a raven, viking, banshee strategy against Mech in the GSTL game and now the strategy is quite common in TvT? This shows that foreigners have some things to teach the Koreans. It's not a one-way road.
After all, there is a huge difference in style between koreans and foreigners. Foreigners have a lot more creativity with a wider range of strategies and unit compositions while Koreans put more emphasis on timings and macro.
A foreigner who starts to compete in Korea suddenly has to play against players who trained to hit certain timings for hours every day and they are just not prepared for it. As soon as they adapt, they can hold their own against most koreans and would definitely get farther in Code A or even Code S.
My list of (potential) Korean slayers are (in no particular order):
+ Show Spoiler [Zerg] +Stephano
IdrA
Ret
MorroW
Nerchio
MoMaN
Dimaga
Sheth
+ Show Spoiler [Protoss] +HuK
MaNa
Naniwa
HasuObs
Socke
WhiteRa
Kiwikaki
+ Show Spoiler [Terran] +Jinro
Thorzain
Sjow
Fenix
QXC
Strelok
This doesn't mean that i think those players can fly to korea today and win Code A tomorrow, but they definitely have what it takes to succeed after only a few days of korean practice and even now can take games of Code A and sometimes even Code S players.
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Fun how you, while being german, forget Darkrforce, which allready has "slain" a Korean at a live event.
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That excuse is bullshit. Those foreigners who were jetlagged got another chance at code A the month after except thorzain who chose to leave. 2 players made it to the ro16 and that was select and sjow who then both got crushed afterwards. Not to mention none of these players had to enter through the qualifiers but instead got invites by placing as far as 15th-20th at MLG.
I don't know exactly why taking games is that big of a deal for some people. Everyone has a chance, whether that be 1% or 60%, but it only matters when it becomes close to 50%. Code B players can take decisive games and sets over some code S players as we've seen.
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On October 21 2011 22:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
That excuse is bullshit. Those foreigners who were jetlagged got another chance at code A the month after except thorzain who chose to leave. 2 players made it to the ro16 and that was select and sjow who then both got crushed afterwards. Not to mention none of these players had to enter through the qualifiers but instead got invites by placing as far as 15th-20th at MLG.
I don't know exactly why taking games is that big of a deal for some people. Everyone has a chance, whether that be 1% or 60%, but it only matters when it becomes close to 50%. Code B players can take decisive games and sets over some code S players as we've seen.
This is exactly what I'm saying. It's not about individual wins and random snipes, it's about repeat performances and overall tournament results that show the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans. We should be looking for champions, not lucky snipers. Foreigners will never close the gap if all they're looking for is to take a game or two every series. If we're going to count every "that one time player XX beat player YY of Korean origin" that's just about everybody, but the total win-loss ratio just shows Korean dominance.
And it's not even like you can apply the jet lag excuse the other way around, Koreans travel half the world to every MLG and dominate just the same, jet lag or no. MLG has a far more exhausting tournament schedule than GSL too.
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How could you not include Naniwa in the up and coming killers. Naniwa is practicing in Korea right now, he's like Huk 2.0 with more rage.
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Because Naniwa hasn't really done anything besides a couple of GSTL wins?
Sure he's technically better than ThorzaiN and sports a winning record against him, but Thorzain' slain way more Koreans in tournaments. Even back in TSL3 ThorzaiN had to go through Fruitdealer (back when he still meant something) and MC in his prime, Naniwa's path to the finals had zero Koreans.
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Funny thing people consider HuK a foreigner, but many dont remember how he was being 2-0'd by playeers like Drewbie, Silver before he went to Korea and became a best with the help of oGs.
To add, the thing about playing in Europe is that often they will have to play online cups. Dimaga recently had a day of cups, where he played like 12 games and did not win anything that really slows players down.
P.S you forgot to add Kas, Morfildur 
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EPT
