• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:32
CEST 23:32
KST 06:32
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon8[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway13
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues23LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris76
StarCraft 2
General
What happened to Singapore/Brazil servers? SC4ALL: A North American StarCraft LAN Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
LANified! 37: Groundswell, BYOC LAN, Nov 28-30 202 SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ alas... i aint gon' lie to u bruh... BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent The Korean Terminology Thread
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group B Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Ro16 Group A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The PlayStation 5 General RTS Discussion Thread Iron Harvest: 1920+ Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 618 users

Who will survive in America?

Blogs > bobwhiz
Post a Reply
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
September 08 2011 04:44 GMT
#1
This post is somewhat of a homage to a song on Kanye West's My Beautiful, Dark, Twisted, Fantasy. It was inspired loosely by something Destiny said a few months ago commenting on PiqLiq. "When last did he win a tournament?"

The upper echelons of the SC2 community are largely in agreement as to what makes a good player. Great macro, great micro, good scouting, good composition, solid decision making. This speaks more towards the intangibles of risk-taking. Players like Ret are known for taking aggressive macro risks, and others like BitByBit Prime WERE known for taking aggressive attacking risks.

Who will survive on the ladder?
Who will survive in the pro game?

It is my hypothesis that many good players cut corners and rely on their opponents NOT doing a run-by when they leave their base. They play well, but they rely on their opponents not having optimal play.

I believe the BEST players assume their opponents have optimal play for all unscouted information. I think this is a mindset which is hard to adopt if one does not assume optimal play. It is also foundational, in that it is what one makes their decisions upon. Safe-expo, or greedy macro play?

The only way you can assume sub-optimal play is when you know your opponent thoroughly and can say that he doesn't punish a greedy opening a certain percentage of the time.

This isn't thoroughly flushed out. I'd optimally like some stats and examples to support my hypothesis, but I will be watching the ratio of relatively safe plays to risky plays, and watch how the safe players end up doing.

This is why I think MC did so well in code S. He had a HIGH risk, HIGH reward style of play, where he cut corners. It's also why he's in code A, and lacks long term viability, imho. His macro and micro are great, he just assumes too much.

This is why I think someone like July has longer term viability. He forces his opponent into situations, so July knows the risk and can quantify his situation.

Ladder players who play like MC or DeMuslim will do really well on the ladder, but those like Polt or July will do better in tournaments.

Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
September 08 2011 05:00 GMT
#2
I think scouting and denying scouting has a lot to do with the viability of assuming non-optimal play in games.

If you scout your opponent in far positions, and he has yet to scout you, then it's much safer to go for a riskier economic build. Optimal play for him at that point would to just become incredibly aggressive, or even all-in you, to punish your greedy play, but because of scouting information on your own part, and lack of scouting from your opponent, you know you're relatively safe.

I think the same goes for other things. If you deny your opponent map control as well as vision of the map, then you have much more freedom to move about the map and take small risks that you otherwise wouldn't.

As well, I feel assuming optimal play from your opponent can be a fault, sometimes. For example, I've seen games from IdrA, where he begins harassment with mutalisks versus Terran, and the Terran has yet to set up missile turrets to defend his base, and has either a low marine count or is out of position, but instead of punishing him, his opponent escapes relatively unharmed, as he assumes optimal play and that he will have several missile turrets up at that point in time, as well as marines in position. The fault comes in not checking/scouting for this information, but rather just assuming good play from your opponent.

I guess this just reinforces the concept of constant scouting. Also, this might change in the future, as players become better and more consistent, as then it would probably be safer to assume optimal play from your opponent, and there will be less times such situations will arise.

So, instead of assuming optimal play, I'd say the best players are the ones with the best scouting and map control/awareness, as well as knowledge of game-flow and the match-up. If they know what their opponent is doing, they don't need to assume anything, and by having a very solid knowledge of the game, scouting information becomes drastically more valuable.

Wow, that turned out longer than I expected. :p
you gotta dance
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 29m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 152
JuggernautJason94
ProTech71
StarCraft: Brood War
LaStScan 105
Dewaltoss 87
sSak 51
ZZZero.O 33
NaDa 13
Dota 2
The International113920
Gorgc10985
PGG 33
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K509
flusha195
Super Smash Bros
Liquid`Ken4
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu500
Other Games
summit1g4359
Grubby3288
fl0m632
shahzam174
C9.Mang0173
SortOf136
PPMD46
XaKoH 35
ViBE28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1719
BasetradeTV25
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta20
• sitaska18
• Reevou 7
• RyuSc2 4
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki13
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1360
• Ler71
League of Legends
• Doublelift3220
Other Games
• Scarra1483
• imaqtpie1062
• Shiphtur187
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
12h 29m
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
14h 29m
Kung Fu Cup
14h 29m
BSL Team Wars
21h 29m
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Maestros of the Game
1d 16h
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
1d 18h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 20h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Wardi Open
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Copa Latinoamericana 4
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
EC S1
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.