|
So very recently I was digesting all of the information that I have been gathering on the current state of the game (not the show mind you the actual current state of sc2). Of course things that inspire my thoughts run the gamut from VODs, Shows, Casting, Playing, etc. This is not something I set out to do every so often, rather a running timeline of events that influence my opinions.
I decided to rage write a forum post on another website (where I knew I could get away with it). Naturally the post was about balance and centered around Protoss. I had all kinds of stats, and it was centered around the fact that Terran have won 7 of 7 major tournaments (MLG COL, ANA, RAL, NASL, IEM, Code A, Code S will be a T). The post was out of line in many ways, language, negativity, and has the possibility of being flat out wrong.
I’m 33 years old, and in everything from Golf to Professional Poker I have blamed myself for all of my own mistakes, and could never understand how someone can blame a “dealer” for bad cards,or a club for a mishit. You directly effect the long term outcome. Play bad bad results, play good good results, it’s all on you! Now I have become a hypocrite. Never before in my life have I wanted to blame IMBA more than my own actions for losses. That is something I am going to have to deal with myself. I choose to main Protoss and unless I can take the good with the bad then I need to shut up and just deal. SC2 is my passion, not my profession so balance at the end of the day really does not matter all that much to me. It does how ever effect people that are trying to make a living at this game, so lets think about that for a second.
Here is the perspective of one pro (Skew):
+ Show Spoiler + The discussion needs to be about Blizzard's lack of giving a shit, not what race is weak or strong. Blizzard's entire answer to dealing with balance is to basically assign the most average of joes to balance the game by using overall statistics from tournaments/GM/whatever and very limited feedback from top players (I mean it's almost non-existent and they block players who disagree too much). If everyone knew Blizzard was working with the players and giving it real effort, most people would be very satisfied with this and support their efforts. But that's not the reality of what's going on and so the side effect is to whine among ourselves to no fucking end I guess.
Anyone can look at balance of even the worst competitive RTS titles (DOW/AGE/etc.) and even those games had a private forum or something where players and developers could get real feedback on topics and have actual meaningful discussion that lead somewhere. We have nothing like that here. There's not even someone saying "We're trying to get there guys, we know how important this is to all of you and we're doing our best. We are in the process of setting up channels so that players and developers can have clear and concise discussion that will lead to a better future for SC2 eSports". NEVER GONNA SEE IT.
If you actually think about it, it makes no sense why Blizzard hasn't just contacted respected organizers in the different communities to moderate private discussions between players/developers. It's all so fucking easy to do, would cost them nothing, and it would have helped the game evolve infinitely quicker than it is now (if it is at all). I mean even for SC2 beta fansites they actually had a privately run website and forums by multiple Blizzard employees that actually responded pretty quickly to inquiries in email and on the forums. Shit got done.
And let's just discuss the effort it takes since I know some asshole thinks this shit is difficult. A lot of the top players have some really clever and innovative ideas that would be easy to implement and test and they came up with those ideas in a matter of minutes. Not years, not days, not hours. Minutes. It takes David Kim a matter of months to make a patch to remove fucking seconds off some insignificant building timing that no body even uses. I'm convinced they make certain patch changes just to create the perception of someone doing something BTW, and I don't believe in conspiracies lol.
I get more upset than you about these things Tumba, at one time I almost considered dedicating multiple years of my life and moving to Korea and SC2ing. For me anyway it just came down to "should I really invest all my time in something that's ran by a company who does the bare minimum and simply doesn't care?" And so far I've never talked to a top player who would defend them to that point.
So that is where the question comes in. Does Blizzard have a responsibility to these pros to make sure the game is balanced? The cop out for Blizzard is: “hey we just try to make a great game and it’s wonderful to see what the community does”. Fact is IMO Blizzard does owe the pros more than that. The exposure these players are giving the game and their company is amazing, that aside eSports has become a viable business platform, and not just for Blizzard. I think everyone can agree the answer is obvious that yes Blizzard has a responsibility not just to the fans, but to the pros.
Does Blizzard give a shit? It certainly doesn’t seem so. In many ways Blizzard stokes the fire rather than putting it out. The worst part is there is little to no communication from Blizzard. 99% of all arguments stem from either miscommunication or lack of communication. Blizzard is great at both. On top of that they are slow to respond to obvious changes that need to be made. Now mind you when I refer to these “obvious changes” I don’t mean balance, I mean things that are broken (ling run by on hold position Zelot, grav beam being broken, gaurdian shield not working properly vs splash dmg) now yes all of these examples are Protoss, no qq here just coincidence feel free to insert any race and any aspect broken is broken. These example should have been fixed immediately or at least addressed. Who even knew that guardian shield wasn’t working properly? Artosis was shocked on SOTG citing that he used Guardian shiled in his PvP match ups vs Colosus. This oversight could cost someone a series and a pay check. It’s ridiculous that the game is this old and GS doesn’t work right.
As I previously stated it’s as if Blizzards lack of communication makes things worse. You take a negative ladder experience, mixed with some stats, and one sound byte and you have a mob mentality recipe for disaster. If Blizzard would just be more open about where they are and what they think, most importantly where they want to go, you would end a lot of this balance bullshit. It will always exist, but at least the intellectuals can tell people to just refer to Blizzards proposed changes. That is if Blizzard would just open lines of communication. It certainly would show that they do care and they are working on it.
Right now the common perception for many Protoss is nothing is going to change until HOTS were we have a chance to become more “complete”. I think that is just a shit attitude. I have faith that Blizzard can do better than that, but maybe I’m just naive.
Now mind you many of the things in this blog post revolve around Protoss, that is merely for illustration, Zerg has had many growing pains as well. Everyone from Pros to Joes wants a balanced game. Besides how many TvT championships can we watch? Joking aside I hope Blizzard would open communication first with the Pros, as they are priortiy then follow up with the community. It’s not too much to ask, and hell it’s just the right thing to do. Makes sense for everyone including Activision/Blizzard shareholders.
Post Script
I am not proud of my rage post. I used it to vent. It is not constructive at all, in fact it’s embarrassing, but if you want to read it I won’t hide it you can find it here: http://forums.hotkeyit.com/6/protoss-=-broken-fuck-off-everyone-who-says-otherwise/179/
 
|
except blizzard does invite pro players to discussions.....Not north americans.
The latest was Sen which he provided some videos when it happened.
|
On September 07 2011 10:51 Viciousvx wrote:
except blizzard does invite pro players to discussions.....Not north americans.
The latest was Sen which he provided some videos when it happened.
I guess that is a step in the right direction. However I like Skew idea of private forums. Free exchange of idea amongst top players instantly.
One player giving an opinion is not nearly as strong as Pro Player liaisons. Put Nestea, MC, MVP and a host of others in an open round table with Blizzard watch how fast things get fixed. Round table is much better than 1v1 for many reasons. It's instant action reaction from all perspectives, with Blizzard to offer more insight that the players may not be aware of.
|
Blizzard has a monopoly on the game due to no legal lan and control/stuffs on any tournament with a prize pool bigger than 5k.
They want to get their hands dirty in the pot of gold, but it seems like they don't want to be the ones to make sure the pot of gold doesn't tip over due to imbalance.
|
The reason there are so many Terrans in the finals of major tourneys is that korean terrans are REALLY FUCKING GOOD AND NUMEROUS.
I don't think MC is better than MVP/Polt/NaDa/Bomber to be competing at the same level as them, it just feels that way because other protoss results have not been so good. I mean, I'm just a noob from NA server in masters league and I can find mistakes in most of the GSL protoss games that are super dumb.
And NesTea is hands down the best player in the world, may he become the first bonjwa.
______
Also, notice how MLG seems to be mostly inviting amazing top level Terrans? There are simply statistically more of them.
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
To be frank, Blizzard's responsibilities are first and foremost to its shareholders.
Then we consider what aspects of their operations need to be refined in order to better serve their shareholders. If serving the progamers properly adds to their bottom line, then Blizzard by extension has a responsibility to the programers (as a result of having a responsibility to their shareholders).
Blizzard is a public corporation and I think the topic (unfortunately) needs to be seen in this light.
|
No blizzard doesn't have an obligation to cater to the pros the majority of their income come from the sale of the game to average joes as well as the majority of the player base and as such the expectation that blizzard balances around all the different groups is to be expected which is the reason they take so long to patch. What may be balanced in grand masters may be op in gold and vice versa. So what I am saying to pro players is get of your high horse, other people paid for the game and expect a well polished and reasonably balanced game at their respective level as well.
|
Keep in mind how often this game has been patched. Whilst, yes these things should have been right from the get-go, they are at least being fixed. Blizzard could quite easily have given up on patching the game and focused purely on the expansions.
A perfect game is hard to create, particularly one as dynamic as Starcraft. It is almost inevitable that things will be missed, the most important thing that blizzard can do to support pros is to actively fix them when they become apparent.
To me Blizzard's responsibility is to act in a way that promote a fair and balanced game. They seem to be doing that. Sure the game isn't perfect, but it is far from ridiculously out of whack and is getting better with time. Is that not enough?
|
I honestly think blizzard is kinda complacent about SC2.Remember when Phoenixes went a whole patch withouth a fix,or when two drophackers were Top5 for weeks and weeks?
I wasn't inclined to buy Diablo 3 and now after seeing the disregard for SC2 and the useless piece of garbage the Bnet forums are I just won't.
|
Blizzard likes to take the slow, steady pace at gamebalance. Every change they make can and will have repercussions on the game. Changing something at the drop of the hat because of some whiner on the forums complained would make for a volatile, crappy game. There are two more expansions that can change things (and Blizzard has been the king of expansion balance) with many more patches.
So cool your jets.
|
On September 07 2011 11:04 Thaniri wrote:
The reason there are so many Terrans in the finals of major tourneys is that korean terrans are REALLY FUCKING GOOD AND NUMEROUS.
I don't think MC is better than MVP/Polt/NaDa/Bomber to be competing at the same level as them, it just feels that way because other protoss results have not been so good. I mean, I'm just a noob from NA server in masters league and I can find mistakes in most of the GSL protoss games that are super dumb.
And NesTea is hands down the best player in the world, may he become the first bonjwa.
______
Also, notice how MLG seems to be mostly inviting amazing top level Terrans? There are simply statistically more of them.
I would ask that you step back for a second. Why are Korean Terrans so numerous? One possibility is that Terran is most complete race that offers the best chance to win.
As far as your MC comment, he has won more money than any other player currently so he's pretty good. Nestea is right behind him in terms of money won.
Pertaining to the mistakes you find in the Protoss play, what seem to be obvious mistakes to a layman may have more going on than meets the eye. Players in Poker often make moves that people coniseder crazy, but what people don't understand is the player did it for a very good reason. If it pans out he looks like a genius if not an idiot.
You could take the first game of the GSL finals with July Zerg vs MC. MC cancelled his nexus and 4 gated. Now if that attack failed would he have looked like such a baws?
Less player play Protoss because they are not complete. Or as complete as Terran anyhow.
EDIT: I have no idea how this was switched to Stim.tv log in, but this is Tumbastarcraft.
|
On September 07 2011 11:08 thedeadhaji wrote:
To be frank, Blizzard's responsibilities are first and foremost to its shareholders.
Then we consider what aspects of their operations need to be refined in order to better serve their shareholders. If serving the progamers properly adds to their bottom line, then Blizzard by extension has a responsibility to the programers (as a result of having a responsibility to their shareholders).
Blizzard is a public corporation and I think the topic (unfortunately) needs to be seen in this light.
I totally agree here. However I believe (and maybe I should have gone deeper into this in the OP) that it is in the Shareholders best interest to balance the game from Pros to Joes.
The best part of your statement is this: "If serving the progamers properly adds to their bottom line, then Blizzard by extension has a responsibility to the programers (as a result of having a responsibility to their shareholders)"
Most people don't put that level of thought into it! I for one believe as stated numerous times it is the case. A balanced game is in the shareholders best interest. And let be realistic Blizzard has the budget.
EDIT: I have no idea how this was switched to Stim.tv log in, but this is Tumbastarcraft.
|
Whether or not its intentional, Blizzard's hands off approach to pro's and the community has made everyone more self sufficient. There are a lot of cool projects and strategies coming out of the community that you don't see in any other gaming community just because we understand that our developer overlords won't do things for us.
And consider a very simple scenario if Blizzard made WoL a nearly perfectly balanced game. It's all going to be broken again in HotS. Players who take the game seriously and want to make it their living have to accept some "imbalances" that will be inherent in the game. Relying on Blizzard to patch everything that isn't obviously broken is a mentality that is a detriment to any progamers career.
|
On September 07 2011 11:08 thedeadhaji wrote:
To be frank, Blizzard's responsibilities are first and foremost to its shareholders.
Then we consider what aspects of their operations need to be refined in order to better serve their shareholders. If serving the progamers properly adds to their bottom line, then Blizzard by extension has a responsibility to the programers (as a result of having a responsibility to their shareholders).
Blizzard is a public corporation and I think the topic (unfortunately) needs to be seen in this light.
I don't Blizzard fully realises the positive externalities that ESPORTS bring to their operations. People see Starcraft, people buy Starcraft. Thus, balancing the game will benefit their bottom line if it makes for better ESPORTS. Moreover, they are hoping to sell two more expansions, so they best make sure the game is good enough for fans to at least keep faith until those are released.
(Or at least that's how I want Blizz to feel so they do what is needed  )
|
As a low level Zerg, I have absolutely no ground to say so, but it doesn't seem like Protoss have had their rediscovery yet. Despite a huge number of patches, Protoss play today is basically the same as it has been. There are small differences, but general ideas like "get a ton of sentries early, then use gas for other stuff later" haven't changed at all. Contrast that to the other pissed-on species, Zerg, who have undergone a nearly complete transformation since the new year, and it seems valid to say that there are under-explored tactics that could be more effective (not a consoling statement, but it's the same thing Zergs were told when we were qq-ing).
Now, this doesn't address the core of your points, but it's about as much as I can say constructively. I agree that Protoss is an incomplete design. There are a number of glaring design flaws and gameplay holes that must be fixed before players can truly be happy with the race and have good fun playing them.
I also agree that Protoss is underpowered at the moment, though cannot say if that is because of deficient strategies or inadequate tools (units/buildings/abilities). About the tools, we must be patient. It is only Blizzard that can fix it, and while their pace is discouraging, the fact that we're promised two entire expansions leaves me hopeful that the game will get there.
[...maybe I can get my lurker and scourge too! :D]
|
On September 07 2011 11:08 thedeadhaji wrote:
To be frank, Blizzard's responsibilities are first and foremost to its shareholders.
Then we consider what aspects of their operations need to be refined in order to better serve their shareholders. If serving the progamers properly adds to their bottom line, then Blizzard by extension has a responsibility to the programers (as a result of having a responsibility to their shareholders).
Blizzard is a public corporation and I think the topic (unfortunately) needs to be seen in this light.
I agree. Blizzard definitely should put the shareholders' interests first. They aren't obligated to do anything for the pros, but it would be wise of them to get as much feedback on balance from people that play the game for a living. I mean, even if they ignored the advice, they could do more to show they are receiving and not just disregarding the input. That being said, again, they don't have an obligation to do so, but they can and should do so out of a courtesy to their "Larger" and more widespread customers that might have a larger influence than just some average guy playing from home. It would just make sense since progaming probably isn't hurting Starcraft, but it's making it more popular.
|
The problem with blaming blizzard for doing nothing about balance is that players solve strategies that appear to be 'imba' over time. People said infestors are imba in zvt, but then terranss learned to abuse the ridiculously op ghosts (yeah I said it: personal ladder experience, also watch july vs mvp g2).
Professional players became pros knowing the game is not yet balanced and probably wont be for some time.
|
On September 07 2011 14:15 crocodile wrote:
The problem with blaming blizzard for doing nothing about balance is that players solve strategies that appear to be 'imba' over time. People said infestors are imba in zvt, but then terranss learned to abuse the ridiculously op ghosts (yeah I said it: personal ladder experience, also watch july vs mvp g2).
Professional players became pros knowing the game is not yet balanced and probably wont be for some time.
But that is a slippery slope. Because what is the line? KA was removed, instead of giving time to adapt. 4 gate timing was nerfed instead of giving more time to adapt. Pylon radius, Blink timing, flux veins. All of these things may seem small, but add them up and it's quite a hit. Now you say well since I don't play that race Blizzard was justified in those changes, and in return someone could argue that infestors are still imba. Its a revolving door.
This all leads to my point. If Blizzard would openly communicate it would cut out 75% of the BS. Be honest with the community. Engage in discussion on the state of the game (again not the show).
|
Canada1637 Posts
Blizzard of course has a responsibility, however I don't think any pro-gamer is actually hitting the skill ceiling (or even really that close to it) so there really isn't much room to complain.
|
On September 07 2011 14:34 Adebisi wrote:
Blizzard of course has a responsibility, however I don't think any pro-gamer is actually hitting the skill ceiling (or even really that close to it) so there really isn't much room to complain.
I don't think the actual issue is with Balance. Rather Blizzards approach to it. It seems like the progamers are frustrated to an extent. Nobody is playing the game close to perfect as Artosis says, so then why nerf/buff anything. B/C there is a line, and it's a fuzzy one. It doesn't have to be that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
