After spending weeks and months talking to masters level players, and diamond players before masters existed, I've come to a conclusion that, to me at least, is startling.
Top-level players have no idea what they're doing.
Now, don't misunderstand, they can DO what they're doing. They can do it well, they can repeatedly do it. But they don't know what it is that they're doing. Here's a fun experiment. Pick a certain micro task that's been stumping you. For me, I picked "microing ling/bane vs ling/bane." I don't know HOW to do this. Like, I know what it should look like, and what end result I want, but I have no earthly clue what buttons to press in what order to make it happen.
So, I asked my buddy who plays Zerg at masters level and another buddy that plays masters toss and offraces Zerg at about a high diamond level, probably how. They were completely unable to explain it. I got stuff like:
"The right way is to kill as many of his lings as possible and banes" "With banes, you either trade well, poorly, or even; You want to, in a perfect world, always trade well" "If you go ling bane it lets you take an expand" "You make banes and transition into whatever because ling bane loses after point x" "I dont see what the problem is"
I think what's happened here is somewhere along the line, maybe in SCBW, maybe in Beta, maybe in SC2, these players figured out the mechanics of how to control a certain unit to get from point A to end result B effectively. Maybe not perfectly, but effectively, and they started practicing it. They practiced it for so long and so hard that the process became muscle memory and subsequently was 'lost' from their ACTUAL memory.
They no longer have any clue what they're doing, just that they can do it. It would be, I think, a lot like asking a track athlete how they run, like the actual physical breakdown of which muscles to move in which order. You'd probably just get blank looks. And that's all I get from Master-level SC2 players when I ask how do I control my ling/bane.
Both utterly hilarious to me, and deeply frustrating.
Surely they must have an idea of what their micro techniques are if they are winning games. Generally, I try to distract my opponent to deal with banelings by sending 2 to his mineral line. I do this repeatedly while micro-ing my lings. I often morph a third banelings in a different location, to suprise his group of lings while he is sending some to fight my two banelings. I send individual Zerglings to fight off his banelings. If time is short I send two. If time is shorter I trade evenly by sending 2 banelings (1 baneling alone can be dealt with by a well positioned queen). I'm a masters Zerg and I have a pretty good idea of how to do things perfectly, but often I don't have the required APM and some actions are botched, but I'm working on it!
I figured that those sorts of micro techniques are simply difficult to explain well to those who don't have much of a clue; it requires intuition, if you will. Saying that Master players don't know what they're doing is a bit sensationalist. It's clear that they know WHAT they're doing, and WHY, but because they can't explain HOW to do it in detail, they're oblivious? It's like asking me to define the word "that". I don't know the definition of "that" in dictionary terms, but it's clear that I can use the word correctly. If I can't define it adequately to you, do I have no clue what I'm saying?
I wasn't talking about just baneling ambushes, like 'surprise! 2 banelings in your drones!" I mean, like, you and I both have bane ling. We both know we both have bane ling. One of us is trying to attack into the other, while the other defends. The battle comes down to who micros his units best and lands the best baneling explosion on or near the bulk of his opponent's units.
How do I control my units, in this sort of battle, to maximize my chances of landing that critical explosion near my opponent's units without him blocking it? I've tried a lot of stuff on my own. I've 'praticed' it for a long time. I put practice in quotes, because I'm not really 'practicing', I'm just trying different, randomly though-up techniques, all of which have failed me.
This is actually true, and there has been research behind it. Check out the 2005 National Geographic documentary that follows Xellos, the entire thing is a great watch but at 13 minutes is the part relevant to your OP.
Top players (at least top Korean BW players) don't deliberately think about what strategic moves they are making, it comes instinctively to them.
On August 31 2011 14:05 Aeres wrote: I figured that those sorts of micro techniques are simply difficult to explain well to those who don't have much of a clue; it requires intuition, if you will. Saying that Master players don't know what they're doing is a bit sensationalist. It's clear that they know WHAT they're doing, and WHY, but because they can't explain HOW to do it in detail, they're oblivious? It's like asking me to define the word "that". I don't know the definition of "that" in dictionary terms, but it's clear that I can use the word correctly. If I can't define it adequately to you, do I have no clue what I'm saying?
A word isn't an action. I know the word 'throw', I can throw a ball. I know how, I might be able to teach someone how by showing them.
Do I know each muscle used, the order it tenses in, and by how much? Not at all.
I'm sure if I was able to sit in the room with one of these players and watch over their shoulder and see what they do, I'd learn VOLUMES...
So, they know what they're doing, but they don't know HOW they're doing it.
Undoubtedly not even the best professionals in the world at SC2 "know" what they are doing by your standards. It is the continuous grinding of games and strategies and situations that allow us to readily identify patterns and their correct responses.
In any competition (esports or otherwise), you don't necessarily have to "know what you are doing", but you just have to either have a better approach or better execution. But you mention this point in your post anyway.
On August 31 2011 14:05 Aeres wrote: I figured that those sorts of micro techniques are simply difficult to explain well to those who don't have much of a clue; it requires intuition, if you will. Saying that Master players don't know what they're doing is a bit sensationalist. It's clear that they know WHAT they're doing, and WHY, but because they can't explain HOW to do it in detail, they're oblivious? It's like asking me to define the word "that". I don't know the definition of "that" in dictionary terms, but it's clear that I can use the word correctly. If I can't define it adequately to you, do I have no clue what I'm saying?
A word isn't an action. I know the word 'throw', I can throw a ball. I know how, I might be able to teach someone how by showing them.
Do I know each muscle used, the order it tenses in, and by how much? Not at all.
I'm sure if I was able to sit in the room with one of these players and watch over their shoulder and see what they do, I'd learn VOLUMES...
So, they know what they're doing, but they don't know HOW they're doing it.
What if you were to watch a replay and 1st person them, allowing you to see what they select, and how they move the unit ^
This seems like your best bet in understand the "how" as you put it.
In your ling bane example, you say you know what it should look like, well what happens when you attempt to emulate what it "should look like" ? Do you have good results, bad results? Did you actually emulate it as you were supposed to ? Perhaps post a replay of yourself trying to emulate something you've seen in another replay, or even analyze them yourself.
There are some people that can describe things well but can't really carry it out, thus tinting their opinions towards a different viewpoint. There are people who can do it but can't describe the things they do, creating misunderstandings. Gifted speakers and gamers I think are few and far in between, especially for the lay people that aren't like oho I get what you meant by predicting base locations dependent on scouting timing/pattern just by saying the clock positions.
A lot of SC knowledge is gathered from repeated visual clues though, so...keep watching those VODs frame-by-frame like I do >___>;;;
If you had asked me"how do i micro ling/bane", I would have said:
Keep lings away from banelings Engage smaller numbers of zerglings, get hits, micro away when banes get close if micro is good, pick off two lings from group and right click bane Keep lings away from banes Go roach
To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of inarticulate sc2 players at the high level, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing... they're just bad at articulating it.
If your friend plays zerg as an offrace at a 'high diamond level' I don't think that he qualifies as a "masters player who doesn't know what hes talking about" even if it is his offrace. A high level masters toss should at least have an offrace at a mid-high masters level. My terran is my current 'main' but I am high masters as zerg/protoss as well. Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes, it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings etc. Either your friends can't teach right or they are not very good if they can't explain it. Just saying.
On August 31 2011 15:19 Candide wrote: If your friend plays zerg as an offrace at a 'high diamond level' I don't think that he qualifies as a "masters player who doesn't know what hes talking about" even if it is his offrace. A high level masters toss should at least have an offrace at a mid-high masters level. My terran is my current 'main' but I am high masters as zerg/protoss as well. Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes, it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings etc. Either your friends can't teach right or they are not very good if they can't explain it. Just saying.
were you trying to give an explanation on the micro? if so, it sucked quite a lot aswell. just saying bro
"Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes" ... how will that statement help anyone? just gives the student a headache due to unneccessary information.
"it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings " .... you have to click properly? no shit? thanks dude. how come i never realized :D. removing certain units, you say? damn, you put it really really badly here.
dude. you're bad at explaining things.
just saying! no offense! really! no ban hammer please. i'm trying to be constructive
On August 31 2011 14:59 BrassMonkey wrote: If you had asked me"how do i micro ling/bane", I would have said:
Keep lings away from banelings Engage smaller numbers of zerglings, get hits, micro away when banes get close if micro is good, pick off two lings from group and right click bane Keep lings away from banes Go roach
Perhaps its more about WHO your talking too.
Diamond zerg
he's good at explaining things. look at how he's doing it. try to emulate!
i think we can draw the conclusion that masters do indeed know what they're doing (at least in the case of ling bling vs ling bling), but suck at explaining it.
OK i think that was constructive enough to not get banned for this post. love you mods. <3
On August 31 2011 15:19 Candide wrote: If your friend plays zerg as an offrace at a 'high diamond level' I don't think that he qualifies as a "masters player who doesn't know what hes talking about" even if it is his offrace. A high level masters toss should at least have an offrace at a mid-high masters level. My terran is my current 'main' but I am high masters as zerg/protoss as well. Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes, it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings etc. Either your friends can't teach right or they are not very good if they can't explain it. Just saying.
were you trying to give an explanation on the micro? if so, it sucked quite a lot aswell. just saying bro
"Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes" ... how will that statement help anyone? just gives the student a headache due to unneccessary information.
"it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings " .... you have to properly click? no shit? thanks dude. how come i never realized :D. certain units, you say? you put it really really badly here.
you're bad at explaining things.
just saying! no offense! really! no ban hammer please. i'm trying to be constructive
His explanation made sense to me; try to trade small, small groups of lings for individual banes (like, 1-2 lings) by peeling them off, since lings are faster than banes! remove them from the control group when you do this with precision clicking. This was legitimately helpful for me to understand lingbane vs lingbane.
On August 31 2011 15:19 Candide wrote: If your friend plays zerg as an offrace at a 'high diamond level' I don't think that he qualifies as a "masters player who doesn't know what hes talking about" even if it is his offrace. A high level masters toss should at least have an offrace at a mid-high masters level. My terran is my current 'main' but I am high masters as zerg/protoss as well. Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes, it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings etc. Either your friends can't teach right or they are not very good if they can't explain it. Just saying.
were you trying to give an explanation on the micro? if so, it sucked quite a lot aswell. just saying bro
"Ling bane is something that you have to practice where you get used to the speed of zerglings outrunning banes" ... how will that statement help anyone? just gives the student a headache due to unneccessary information.
"it revolves around proper clicking and removing certain units from your control group to get them wasted on banelings " .... you have to properly click? no shit? thanks dude. how come i never realized :D. certain units, you say? you put it really really badly here.
you're bad at explaining things.
just saying! no offense! really! no ban hammer please. i'm trying to be constructive
His explanation made sense to me; try to trade small, small groups of lings for individual banes (like, 1-2 lings) by peeling them off, since lings are faster than banes! remove them from the control group when you do this with precision clicking. This was legitimately helpful for me to understand lingbane vs lingbane.
of course it made sense. the explanation was still badly put. glad you understood it.
On August 31 2011 14:07 c.Deadly wrote: This is actually true, and there has been research behind it. Check out the 2005 National Geographic documentary that follows Xellos, the entire thing is a great watch but at 13 minutes is the part relevant to your OP.
Top players (at least top Korean BW players) don't deliberately think about what strategic moves they are making, it comes instinctively to them.
AHHHHHHHH
Those guys were setting IVs with no gloves wtf!!! sorry, I had something to say about the OP and the video but now I can't think about anything else ><
Ahm... Your asking for stuff that is really, really hard to explain?
I mean, the situation is simple: You wan't to kill as many lings per Bane as possible (or get the Banes into the Drones whiteout losing them). You wan't to kill as many banes per ling or bane as possible (so you want ideally trade 0/1 ling per bane, 2 are ok, more is probably not in your interest but still can be...). Your enemy wants ~the same... But it depends... Are there Queens/Spines involved?... Are you on the offense/defense? . .
Basically it's just about control, no one can exactly say you how to do it and about everyone does it differently.
The most basic level would be having your Lings in a Group and your Banelings in another... The "best" possible way would be to control every unit individually.... NO ONE can tell you "how" to do that... You are either naturally pretty fucking fast/good at microing or you need to practise it to become able to control more/smaller groups of ligns/banes individually...
What do you expect form your friends to tell you? How to hold your Mouse? How to select units?
Your title is misleading. It seems like you are saying masters players' muscle memory causes them to actually forget what buttons they are pressing to accomplish tasks - meaning they have no idea what they are literally doing. If this is correct, I agree, but that is not a bad thing. Every situation is slightly different and these players have a ton of multitasking that is largely muscle memory and reaction to what they are seeing; it's no surprise they can't remember the exact buttons pressed during a micro war. I admit I'm not a zerg, but I really don't know how one would explain ling/baneling micro better than "well you want to kill his banelings with a single ling and set up traps with your banelings to kill of his pack of lings." What more do you expect? Microing is just completely different than a memorized build order; it's 100% reactionary to how your opponent is microing.
Think of those typing speed tests. You can't explain what buttons you press to achieve your goal because the words are randomized, different every time. You are just reacting to what you see on the screen, at your own pace. Can you explain to me what buttons you press to do well on a typing speed test? I will imitate the buttons you press and see how well I do...doesn't work right? The same is true of a micro battle. All you can do is describe the overall idea. You see the units and what is happening, and a pro will just "know" what to do as if he was copying words off the screen.
EPT
