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I remember the first time i watch a starcraft pro match was WCG final in china Jeadong vs Stork. It strikes me from the very first time the idea that if you kill somebody economy by those wonderful storms, they wont have resources in the future to produce units.
From then, i keep digging in the interaction between economy and production in game and never stop amaze myself on what i have found.
(A)Rule #1 of playing starcraft: never stop producing workers, its a backbone of you army, of your game and the main factor to become a better players.
(B)Rule #1 of improving in starcraft: cutting corner(aka. worker production) to get ahead.
It took me 1 year straight to master (A) and now, 1 year later, i started to understand (B) and trying to apply it to my games day by day. The body language of 'constantly making probes' is killing me every single game that is longer than 30 minutes. Double tab the nexus hot key and spam E has been printed in my brain as a default action after each battle nor an interval of 30 sec.
Micro your economy to victory is now my moto. At high master level, you should not find much room to improve but everytime i think about this side of a problem, i just feel so useless like a bronze player stuggling with their hotkey setup. The idea is simple: what do you need? Do you REALLY need a better econ atm? Lots of people would think the answer is always yes but it turns out there are tons of time the answer is no.
A good example would be the most recent ep of Day9 about "Tyler PvP build". He went 10 pylon 10 gate with a chrono on the 12th probe instead of the 11th. This actually solved me a tons of problem: is chrono boost hurting me in various way? Using chrono boost does not only mean that i will produce a probe faster but also, spending 50 mineral for the next probe faster. In a match up such as PvP where gas heavy units decided the out come of the battle, why dont i just scarify a bit of mineral for a bit more gas?
From that, i start to look at my normal ladder game and i see tons of holes that i can fill in: PvZ with 1 gate FE, if i use chrono on my 2 nexi, I only have enough mineral for sentries production on 2 gas. But if i just produce probes at normal rate or chrono the nexi once/twice then cut probes, I will have a much better minerals/gas ratio to have constant stalkers production to held of such roaches pressure.
After that, i started to think what if you already have enough econ/ production ration, how do i spend chrono boost? The answer came in a blink of the eyes: Wrapgate. Remember how we favored chrono wrap tech instead of units out of gates? One of the core reason i found out is that tech is "chrono heavy" Meaning with 100 100 for +1, you could spend 4 or 5 chrono on it WITHOUT having to spend more resources for unit production. It sounds dumb at first but if you think about this the way zerg think about their larva management, its totally true.
From this, I have worked out some sick build order where you can get +3 or +3+1(due to later twilight timing) really fast for certain timing push. btw, somehow +3 gateway units and immo just demolish +2 +2 hydra roach ling(0-2)... 2 gate zealots rush becomes much more complex than what it was once you know how to spend your chrono: cutting chrono to tech up with probe or spend on 1 save 1 for wrap tech OR spend both to do a timing rush. Or look at Huk 20 food expand build, any Terran who play vs HuK back in the day was thinking is a FE build but its actually a rush. The best way to counter that is just to bunker up and stay alive instead of pressure and got caught off guard.
The question "What do i need?" keep pop up in my head times to times: do i really need 7 HT in a battle or just 3 or 4 with enough energy? if then what should i use the rest of the gas for? -> storm dropppppppppp yeahhhhhhhhh.!!!!!!!!!! And it actually works wonderfully. In PvP: i could turn the game into a complex chess battle by rushing to DT tech defensively(win vs 4 gate) without making a single DT. Poke up ramp to check robo tech while fast expand then slowly turn the battle into chargelots archon and a race to 3-3 upgrades. How? I cut probe at the right time.
Lots of people thought that with 400 they could get and advantage from an expansion: wrong! You need to produce enough probes to actual mined from the nexus, then make the unit production facilities to make the units that could help you in battle. You understand what I am trying to say? NO YOU ARE NOT! I could stay comfort on 25 probeson 2 bases while you are 30 probes and your nexus just start: why? Because in the long run, i know you will be out produced by me by a large margin. Your best hope is to put pressure on me now so all i need to do is invest everything i have, cut probe etc into army to survive. Once you retreat my (econ+army) sum will be far superior. This i find, is a key to Zerg to hold their 3rd at the 10 min push in ZvP. Sheth, tgun, idra has been using a tons of speedlings at that timing to delay/reduce the FF count, stay low on drone to out produce worker later with their fast 3rd. Poor my human naked eyes, have great opportunities to obs half of GM games in person and never learn this.
CONCLUSION (aka. note to self):
+Cut probes at 75~80!!! anything more is bad!!!!
+Stop chrono nexus u dumbass! Make a forge and chrono it!
+Plexa is right about the wrap prism, use them! (yes, plural, not 'it')
+Spread the love :3 Its the only cure for haters everywhere.
+DreamHuK
 
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yeah make 3 forges and chrono the crap out of them. I have no idea how to battle upgraded gateway units with lings haha
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Disagree with worker count. Especially if you're Toss. If you're playing a very gateway heavy army with multi-pronged harass and such. You want as much income to fuel your 12+ Gateways. In certain situations a worker count of above 75 can be beneficial.
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The thing that sucks about SC2 is you need more workers than you did in BW since you need 6 instead of 3 or 4 per base for gas. And then if you're zerg you need an additional 2 for a macro unit. Which is why zerg has trouble maxed out at T3. IIn order to constantly reinforce/recreate armies of ultras/broods that you are throwing at the opponent late game, you need like 4-5 bases. but 3.5 bases is already like 70-80 supply of workers. This is why I was always against the double geyser thing since alpha build..
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On June 22 2011 19:30 FataLe wrote:
Disagree with worker count. Especially if you're Toss. If you're playing a very gateway heavy army with multi-pronged harass and such. You want as much income to fuel your 12+ Gateways. In certain situations a worker count of above 75 can be beneficial.
At the same time, you reach a point where your army simply isn't big enough if you do that. Not saying you're wrong, but it is definitely kind of scary only having say, a 120 supply army(god forbid 100 or 110) unless you are way ahead or something. The extra dps matters a lot sometimes.
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On June 22 2011 19:39 SpoR wrote:
The thing that sucks about SC2 is you need more workers than you did in BW since you need 6 instead of 3 or 4 per base for gas. And then if you're zerg you need an additional 2 for a macro unit. Which is why zerg has trouble maxed out at T3. IIn order to constantly reinforce/recreate armies of ultras/broods that you are throwing at the opponent late game, you need like 4-5 bases. but 3.5 bases is already like 70-80 supply of workers. This is why I was always against the double geyser thing since alpha build..
great point there, will look into it for future usage! But again, if you put stuff on 1 geyser, the worker production over chrono just make P saturate so fast.
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just relating to the name of the topic: i recently played a game of chess after not having played for 5 or more years, and i almost beat my girlfriend's brother, who had been playing the game a lot during the last few weeks, just by applying the basic strategic things that sc2 taught me. pretty cool 
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I have been trying to apply this as well.
Cutting probes while getting my 2 bases worth of production facilities up asap.
Only to start making them again.
There really is so many time combinations that can put you ahead.
Especially with chrono boost.
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On June 22 2011 21:16 drooL wrote:just relating to the name of the topic: i recently played a game of chess after not having played for 5 or more years, and i almost beat my girlfriend's brother, who had been playing the game a lot during the last few weeks, just by applying the basic strategic things that sc2 taught me. pretty cool
not being a douche, but your girlfriend's brother must really suck at chess. saying that you beat him in chess just based on your sc2 experience is like saying that someone beat you in SC2 just based on their chess experience. this analogy should help you understand how ludicrous this is.
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On June 22 2011 22:56 LoneWolf.Alpha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 21:16 drooL wrote:just relating to the name of the topic: i recently played a game of chess after not having played for 5 or more years, and i almost beat my girlfriend's brother, who had been playing the game a lot during the last few weeks, just by applying the basic strategic things that sc2 taught me. pretty cool not being a douche, but your girlfriend's brother must really suck at chess. saying that you beat him in chess just based on your sc2 experience is like saying that someone beat you in SC2 just based on their chess experience. this analogy should help you understand how ludicrous this is.
It's not ludicrous at all. Chess, StarCraft, and poker all require some sort of shared knowledge. Keep being a baller drooL.
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On June 22 2011 21:16 drooL wrote:just relating to the name of the topic: i recently played a game of chess after not having played for 5 or more years, and i almost beat my girlfriend's brother, who had been playing the game a lot during the last few weeks, just by applying the basic strategic things that sc2 taught me. pretty cool
i dont know man, i never wana piss off my future brother in law :-/... But you could try to make him play sc instead of chess
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I'll add another layer into your analysis.
You say stop making workers at 80 or so...but what if you didn't think your opponent was going to attack for a while? Or your harassment was being particularly effective so that you aren't afraid of being attacked?
If you could support 110 probes for 2 or 3 minutes (essentially saturate another entire base) you can pool a much larger number of resources so that you could support more unit producing structures for a period of time afterwards once you sacrifice some of those probes.
Zerg, for instance: If you could hold 110 drones (30 drones more than what you want) long enough for each drone to mine 100 minerals, you could then build 15 spine crawlers, suicide the remaining 15 extra drones, and you be in the exact same position you would have been if you had only had 80 drones except you will have gotten 15 'free' spine crawlers and the rest of your army and supply would be the same.
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On June 23 2011 06:22 Gnial wrote:
I'll add another layer into your analysis.
You say stop making workers at 80 or so...but what if you didn't think your opponent was going to attack for a while? Or your harassment was being particularly effective so that you aren't afraid of being attacked?
If you could support 110 probes for 2 or 3 minutes (essentially saturate another entire base) you can pool a much larger number of resources so that you could support more unit producing structures for a period of time afterwards once you sacrifice some of those probes.
Zerg, for instance: If you could hold 110 drones (30 drones more than what you want) long enough for each drone to mine 100 minerals, you could then build 15 spine crawlers, suicide the remaining 15 extra drones, and you be in the exact same position you would have been if you had only had 80 drones except you will have gotten 15 'free' spine crawlers and the rest of your army and supply would be the same.
you always have to assume how in a high level game constant battle going on. Watch MC vs Thorzain on taldarim and you will see what im saying. The expansion denial is quite easy late game dude to the size of maps and mobility of your army. OH WAIT! Go find Mr.bitter 12 weeks with the pros feat. Sheth. Find the ZvZ sheth vs Gerbil on taldarim, 50 mins game ZvZ should be the best exaplem for that.
what you are saying is that would i rather have 8 stalkers vs 10 while i have 16 wrap gates to reproduce my army faster:
PvP: yes, this might apply but PvP never get to that stage so lets not talk about it
PvT: well, same theory, T replace 90% of their scv with mule orbital. They always have 50% more food than you do. Not counting the fast that bunkers and PF need a big army to kill instead of small army constantly attack it.
PvZ: you cant really beat tier 3 Z with gateway units, specially if they have infestors support. So if you must rely on stuff like colossus or VR, the speed of reproduction simply back to zero when you have to compare it to the hatching time of a zerg egg.
you might be right about Z army though. There are also factor of map on how a 300 food Z army will fit/concave on it etc...
Again, this is an untouched side of the state of late game and unlikely to be explored anytime soon.
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On June 23 2011 06:46 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 06:22 Gnial wrote:
I'll add another layer into your analysis.
You say stop making workers at 80 or so...but what if you didn't think your opponent was going to attack for a while? Or your harassment was being particularly effective so that you aren't afraid of being attacked?
If you could support 110 probes for 2 or 3 minutes (essentially saturate another entire base) you can pool a much larger number of resources so that you could support more unit producing structures for a period of time afterwards once you sacrifice some of those probes.
Zerg, for instance: If you could hold 110 drones (30 drones more than what you want) long enough for each drone to mine 100 minerals, you could then build 15 spine crawlers, suicide the remaining 15 extra drones, and you be in the exact same position you would have been if you had only had 80 drones except you will have gotten 15 'free' spine crawlers and the rest of your army and supply would be the same. you always have to assume how in a high level game constant battle going on. Watch MC vs Thorzain on taldarim and you will see what im saying. The expansion denial is quite easy late game dude to the size of maps and mobility of your army. OH WAIT! Go find Mr.bitter 12 weeks with the pros feat. Sheth. Find the ZvZ sheth vs Gerbil on taldarim, 50 mins game ZvZ should be the best exaplem for that. what you are saying is that would i rather have 8 stalkers vs 10 while i have 16 wrap gates to reproduce my army faster: PvP: yes, this might apply but PvP never get to that stage so lets not talk about it PvT: well, same theory, T replace 90% of their scv with mule orbital. They always have 50% more food than you do. Not counting the fast that bunkers and PF need a big army to kill instead of small army constantly attack it. PvZ: you cant really beat tier 3 Z with gateway units, specially if they have infestors support. So if you must rely on stuff like colossus or VR, the speed of reproduction simply back to zero when you have to compare it to the hatching time of a zerg egg. you might be right about Z army though. There are also factor of map on how a 300 food Z army will fit/concave on it etc... Again, this is an untouched side of the state of late game and unlikely to be explored anytime soon.
Actually, Nestea does it all the time.
He gets like, 100+ drones, keeps em around for a while, and then builds a ton of spine crawlers.
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On June 24 2011 01:05 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 06:46 NB wrote:On June 23 2011 06:22 Gnial wrote:
I'll add another layer into your analysis.
You say stop making workers at 80 or so...but what if you didn't think your opponent was going to attack for a while? Or your harassment was being particularly effective so that you aren't afraid of being attacked?
If you could support 110 probes for 2 or 3 minutes (essentially saturate another entire base) you can pool a much larger number of resources so that you could support more unit producing structures for a period of time afterwards once you sacrifice some of those probes.
Zerg, for instance: If you could hold 110 drones (30 drones more than what you want) long enough for each drone to mine 100 minerals, you could then build 15 spine crawlers, suicide the remaining 15 extra drones, and you be in the exact same position you would have been if you had only had 80 drones except you will have gotten 15 'free' spine crawlers and the rest of your army and supply would be the same. you always have to assume how in a high level game constant battle going on. Watch MC vs Thorzain on taldarim and you will see what im saying. The expansion denial is quite easy late game dude to the size of maps and mobility of your army. OH WAIT! Go find Mr.bitter 12 weeks with the pros feat. Sheth. Find the ZvZ sheth vs Gerbil on taldarim, 50 mins game ZvZ should be the best exaplem for that. what you are saying is that would i rather have 8 stalkers vs 10 while i have 16 wrap gates to reproduce my army faster: PvP: yes, this might apply but PvP never get to that stage so lets not talk about it PvT: well, same theory, T replace 90% of their scv with mule orbital. They always have 50% more food than you do. Not counting the fast that bunkers and PF need a big army to kill instead of small army constantly attack it. PvZ: you cant really beat tier 3 Z with gateway units, specially if they have infestors support. So if you must rely on stuff like colossus or VR, the speed of reproduction simply back to zero when you have to compare it to the hatching time of a zerg egg. you might be right about Z army though. There are also factor of map on how a 300 food Z army will fit/concave on it etc... Again, this is an untouched side of the state of late game and unlikely to be explored anytime soon. Actually, Nestea does it all the time. He gets like, 100+ drones, keeps em around for a while, and then builds a ton of spine crawlers.
If you look at this
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=29&part=games&league=standard&vs=P
you can see Nestea has no good recent good record vP. Not counting that most of the P in Korea are horrible.
The idea is also about how much you have banked up, if you banked 4k, i would prefer spending those drones into spines instead of let them mined. A good P death balls with mothership VRs could kill 600/600 Z army no problem if they come at it 100 at a time. I believe Mana? or some P in Dream hack did this in a PvZ game on crevasse? End game he has at least 20 VR with 3-3-3 upgrades, mothership and at least 6 colossus + gateway units. He even start killing his probes to make rooms.
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On June 24 2011 11:28 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:05 Gnial wrote:On June 23 2011 06:46 NB wrote:On June 23 2011 06:22 Gnial wrote:
I'll add another layer into your analysis.
You say stop making workers at 80 or so...but what if you didn't think your opponent was going to attack for a while? Or your harassment was being particularly effective so that you aren't afraid of being attacked?
If you could support 110 probes for 2 or 3 minutes (essentially saturate another entire base) you can pool a much larger number of resources so that you could support more unit producing structures for a period of time afterwards once you sacrifice some of those probes.
Zerg, for instance: If you could hold 110 drones (30 drones more than what you want) long enough for each drone to mine 100 minerals, you could then build 15 spine crawlers, suicide the remaining 15 extra drones, and you be in the exact same position you would have been if you had only had 80 drones except you will have gotten 15 'free' spine crawlers and the rest of your army and supply would be the same. you always have to assume how in a high level game constant battle going on. Watch MC vs Thorzain on taldarim and you will see what im saying. The expansion denial is quite easy late game dude to the size of maps and mobility of your army. OH WAIT! Go find Mr.bitter 12 weeks with the pros feat. Sheth. Find the ZvZ sheth vs Gerbil on taldarim, 50 mins game ZvZ should be the best exaplem for that. what you are saying is that would i rather have 8 stalkers vs 10 while i have 16 wrap gates to reproduce my army faster: PvP: yes, this might apply but PvP never get to that stage so lets not talk about it PvT: well, same theory, T replace 90% of their scv with mule orbital. They always have 50% more food than you do. Not counting the fast that bunkers and PF need a big army to kill instead of small army constantly attack it. PvZ: you cant really beat tier 3 Z with gateway units, specially if they have infestors support. So if you must rely on stuff like colossus or VR, the speed of reproduction simply back to zero when you have to compare it to the hatching time of a zerg egg. you might be right about Z army though. There are also factor of map on how a 300 food Z army will fit/concave on it etc... Again, this is an untouched side of the state of late game and unlikely to be explored anytime soon. Actually, Nestea does it all the time. He gets like, 100+ drones, keeps em around for a while, and then builds a ton of spine crawlers. If you look at this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=29&part=games&league=standard&vs=Pyou can see Nestea has no good recent good record vP. Not counting that most of the P in Korea are horrible. The idea is also about how much you have banked up, if you banked 4k, i would prefer spending those drones into spines instead of let them mined. A good P death balls with mothership VRs could kill 600/600 Z army no problem if they come at it 100 at a time. I believe Mana? or some P in Dream hack did this in a PvZ game on crevasse? End game he has at least 20 VR with 3-3-3 upgrades, mothership and at least 6 colossus + gateway units. He even start killing his probes to make rooms.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but you are missing the point entirely. You only make the extra workers if you can get away with it, and then eventually you get rid of them later so you get as big an army as you would have anyways, but you end up with extra money in the bank.
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EPT
