On May 28 2011 19:48 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:57 Havefa1th wrote:
1) Brood War's imbalances and strategies were changed by players and maps, not by patches.
Brood War's latest patch is 1.16. SC2 is at 1.3.4. While the format is different, of course, no one can deny that Blizzard is changing this game at a blistering pace. Over 10 years, Brood War had a handful of big balance patches, while SC2 has an armful for just under a year of life. Not only that, there are 2 expansions coming out! This game will change so much that the focus is no longer on players' ingenuity, it's on how Blizzard makes the 4 gate come out 10 seconds later.
The reason behind patching the game so much is because SC2 was made to be an e-sport. Releasing an unbalanced game and telling the players to figure it out themselves does not make for a good e-sport. However, the frequency of patches has decreased a lot during the last months, and it's probably going to continue that way.
The game had to be patched as frequently as it was during the early days because people had a different mindset when SC2 was released compared to SC. Imbalances were found and used faster because of the increased amount of players, competitions and communication.
I don't consider the patching bad, in fact, it has been pivotal in the success of SC2. However, if Blizzard keeps fixing every little thing that seems to be winning games more than usual, then I agree it's bad. That hasn't happened yet and I don't think it will though.
Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:57 Havefa1th wrote:We haven't seen much player ingenuity in this game yet. Everyone so far in Starcraft 2 has won by simply making less mistakes than the other player. I haven't seen anything like Savior's masterful backstab lurker positioning in Starcraft 2, nor has anyone tried. Mostly so far we've seen 1 or 2 unit compositions per race and some exploration with build orders, but the strategy of Brood War isn't here. Some argue that Spanishiwa has changed the everyman's ZvX around, but the originality of his build is in debate and while it is a star in the scheme of things, it's a star in an empty sky.
You're generalizing a bit too much here by saying that everyone in SC2 has won by being better mechanically. The lurker positioning could be compared to burrow baneling positioning to swing games in one players direction. I don't really get your argument though, it seems like you are just trying to justify your opinion without valid arguments. You say that we've seen "some exploration with build orders", while in fact experimentation with builds have been going on since early beta, and we regularly see new builds popping up.
Also, 1 or 2 unit compositions per race? You are making false statements. There are different ways to play every matchup, and just because all of them haven't been figured out yet, that doesn't mean they never will be. There are definitely more than 1 or 2 unit compositions per race.
"The strategy of Brood War isn't here". You are absolutely right. But as people usually say, give it time. Can't expect people to come up with all viable strategies instantly.
Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 05:57 Havefa1th wrote:
Starcaft 2 is build around ease of use and speed. Every race has an upgrade to speed, whether it be creep, Metabolic Boost, Glial Reconstitution, Pnematic Carapace, Stimpacks, Chargelots, Observer Speed, Warp Prism Speed or Blink. Combined with swarmier basic units like the Zergling, Marine and Zealot, speed upgrades and the (essentially) unlimited control group, Starcraft 2 units are faster and easier to control. Because units are easier to control, proper positioning and map control become less powerful compared to Brood War, where an unexpected lurker or 2 can wipe out marines while the Terran rushes to control them all. Little things like that become less important, which is why players don't focus on them.
And I don't think they will, not for a long time. At this point SC2 is all about building counters to units you see and making less macro and micro mistakes. In Starcraft 2, we rarely see a higher class of player that goes beyond "banelings counter marines" and into map positioning, backstabs, and metagame.
I hope we someone does start to experiment with great results in Starcraft 2. I'm getting bored of seeing the player who has x+1 stalkers to another Protoss' x stalkers win. I want to see innovation, but I don't think it will come.
So for now, I continue watching MSL VODs.
Once again you are generalizing too much. About map position and backstabs, a good example of this is MarineKing's usage of Marines and Marauders in TvT. Normally you would say Siege Tanks counter these bio units, right? However, by dropping multiple positions and spreading the army of the Meching player, MarineKing has managed to win games even though he had an army that would lose in a army on army fight. All of this by using his positioning and activeness on the map.
An unexpected burrowed baneling can still wipe out tons of marines, just like a lurker could. And just because Banelings are the counter to Marines, people still use Marines against them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGJP0BgvUPANot good enough?
Of course a player with a weaker army will lose against someone with a stronger army IF the player with the weaker army doesn't do anything special to gain the advantage. This is not unique to SC2 though, it's the exact same case in BW.
While I respect your opinion, I do think that SC2 will continue to evolve. Whether it will be as figured out as BW is one day is impossible to know, your arguments haven't convinced me to believe it won't be though.
Side note: I have been watching BW ever since I first heard of StarCraft 2 which was mid to late 2009, and I like both games equally but because of different reasons.
EPT
. I'm a newcomer to the pro scene and I've checked out both BW and SC2 I kinda like the BW more, but I watch SC2 because I don't want to listen to korean commentators. I'm hoping that we get to see more positional plays and greater understandings of the maps to see the better players win consistantly, but I"m still hopefull because the game is so new
