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Active: 721 users

Carriers, Holly check! (might contain spoiler)

Blogs > NB
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 06:56:32
May 24 2011 06:56 GMT
#1
Man, i just won a legit game PvZ using carrier and feel SOOOOOO HIGHHH =)))))) (on life ofc)

[image loading]
Yes babe, you are my love

rep:
http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-z-nostalgia-vs-p-nobodyod-shakuras-plateau-05-24-2011
1k1~ master FYI

NEVER! FORGET! THIS! FEELING!

Like a BOSS!

joking aside, carrier is such an underused unit in game atm

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Carrier

Noticed how each attack upgrades give it +16 damage... HUGE (could it be highest in the game?)
max attack range is 14 despite interceptors launch at 8.

Also it is an air unit so there are not much option people could counter it, especially as Zerg (queen, hydra, muta, corruptors are the only anti air u can hv in your army). If you open air, zerg will never be able to get an ez 3rd so they are limited in gas. You can also remove the muta option due to phoenix hard counter route. Queen is lack of mobility and they have no DPS compare to carriers. Oh poor zerg

In case you hvnt noticed, i copy this strat from HuI who won vs July in a recent tournament. Noticed this video was played on Sen stream earlier this morning :3
part 2
part 1



***
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
ESPRITsc
Profile Joined April 2011
200 Posts
May 24 2011 07:03 GMT
#2
Can someone explain the video above? This is a TeSL event and with July playing in a LAN? Which event is this exactly?
Yogurt
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States4258 Posts
May 24 2011 07:14 GMT
#3
For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard
ok dont not so good something is something ok ok ok gogogo
AnxiousHippo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 07:50:09
May 24 2011 07:49 GMT
#4
On May 24 2011 16:14 Yogurt wrote:
For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard

But interceptors are just so fast, and with such a massive range it's hard to deal with them in masses. A while ago I was playing Fastest Map and someone went mass carrier, they were impossible to beat. There just isn't anything that can deal with it..
But in 1v1, they are fairly expensive and slow...
An apple a day keeps the Protoss away | TLHF
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
May 24 2011 07:59 GMT
#5
GL with neural parasite
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 08:10:38
May 24 2011 08:10 GMT
#6
I congratulate you fellow Brotoss, but I think your victory was in part the result of your Zerg opponent having no idea of what to do :/. Carriers just aren't good, practical units most of the time imo.
Wr3k
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2533 Posts
May 24 2011 08:10 GMT
#7
You can rave all you want about how each attack upgrade gives +2 per shot, but you have to keep in mind that each interceptor loses 2 damage per target armor. I.e. corruptors with armor upgrades rape carriers super fucking hard.
Kamais_Ookin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada4218 Posts
May 24 2011 09:02 GMT
#8
On May 24 2011 16:59 -orb- wrote:
GL with neural parasite
GL inching the slow-ass snail infestors inside the radius necessary to cast neural while the +3 attack huge range behemoths en masse are disintegrating everything it touches.
I <3 Plexa.
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 09:41:38
May 24 2011 09:36 GMT
#9
hahhaha, fun game. but you were ahead after the 1base Z attack (30 drones vs 50 probes...), plus the mutas didn't do that much (did you know, carriers have 2 armor? not bad.). In a more "normal" game, the Z economy is set up to skew pretty hard in composition (into corruptor/hydra/zergling?) so I don't know if we'll be seeing mass carrier transitions too often

edit: ok mutas actually did do decent damage but still you were probably safe from falling behind if played correctly... hard to say if that's due to or despite of the carriers =p
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
May 24 2011 10:01 GMT
#10
Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.

I go them every time i play team games
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
Footymd
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada105 Posts
May 24 2011 10:25 GMT
#11
On May 24 2011 16:59 -orb- wrote:
GL with neural parasite


Why bother even posting if you put shit like that?

I honest;ly think that we need to look at our t3 units since every match up , the opponent assumes we are going colossus or even HT. I think with a litte more time in the think tank we can get a good build going.

Vs Z zealot phoenix into voidray into carriers with a mix ground?
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
May 24 2011 10:31 GMT
#12
On May 24 2011 19:01 Zlasher wrote:
Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.

I go them every time i play team games

And battlecruisers. 2 base armor and yamato rapes carriers pretty hard.
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
anatem
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania1369 Posts
May 24 2011 10:39 GMT
#13
pure infestor corruptor mutilates this build, july had ample timing to pick up and saturate his third during the long ass carrier transition, but went into the robot mode of hydra beats air and got so scared of pure void ray that he didn't think to scout for carriers, probably because he never saw them in a game.
'Tis with our Judgements as our Watches, none / Go just alike, yet each believes his own.
Body_Shield
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada3368 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 11:43:55
May 24 2011 11:43 GMT
#14
TLO did a nice fight against a player who went all carriers on TL Attack.
+ Show Spoiler +
He wasn't zerg though. He went stalker/high templar, and had quite a few archons due to the amounts of high templar he was fielding. Chaining storms absolutely destroyed the carriers, but you do need a lot of high templars and time. It was a FFA game, so it wasn't really serious, but the point stands.
So, five-card stud, nothing wild... and the sky's the limit
Zedders
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 13:02:51
May 24 2011 13:00 GMT
#15
I don't think we see enough carriers in high level play because, to be honest, tosses have a ton of strong compositions right now. I think carriers are soooooo goood, but we haven't really seen toss struggle against a specific unit composition that requires them to break out from the regular ol tried and true collosus method.

Hopefully we'll see some Terran/Zerg innovation that will strain Toss to pump out some late game carriers, but right now as it is...it seems very situational, and overly flashy.

EDIT: To add on to the thought....Since toss' forge upgrades Robo and Gateway tech units, the starport play has its own upgrade tree, which may also make toss hesistant to switch to carriers if he did not start off with a Stargate tech path.
Zidane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1686 Posts
May 24 2011 13:16 GMT
#16
if they increase the movement speed so they're faster vs vikings, and can actually be microable, we may see them more often.
lindn
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden833 Posts
May 24 2011 13:21 GMT
#17
On May 24 2011 16:14 Yogurt wrote:
For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard

i've met 3 base HTvoidcarrier.

i have no idea how he afforded it but it ripped the shit out of my infestor hydra mix.
LoliSquad
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway45 Posts
May 24 2011 13:24 GMT
#18
On May 24 2011 19:31 Coriolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2011 19:01 Zlasher wrote:
Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.

I go them every time i play team games

And battlecruisers. 2 base armor and yamato rapes carriers pretty hard.


3 base armor. BCs are ok at dealing with carriers (drewbie vs minigun practice/for fun matches showed it on drewbies stream a while back).
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 24 2011 15:28 GMT
#19
as i stated from the above: any voidray opening in high level PvZ means that Z will not be able to take their 3rd for a while. The money to invest in extra queens, spore and the time to get creep to the 3rd location. This leave Z with maximum 4 gas 2 bases which means that a tier 2 army STILL can be made BUT CANNOT be REMADE.

This means that once they trade all their hydra for may be 2/6 of your carrier, nothing else could stop your 4/6 carrier. Same goes to corruptors due to gas cost.

If you watch Hui vs July, you see how he has a soild follow up with gateways units. noticed the amount of gates he get after the 6th carrier came out and his +2 (or 3) almost finish at the end of the game. Any sort of corrupter play will be denied by a VR/gateway switch later.

Anyway, have fun trying out this build =)))... Love you all TL
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Lochat
Profile Joined January 2011
United States270 Posts
June 04 2011 03:51 GMT
#20
Carriers do not give +16 damage per attack upgrade. It gives it 1x16 damage. Saying +16 gives a false impression, since +1 armor would turn a +16 into a +15. A 1x16 gets turned into +0 damage against +1 armor. The difference is huge, and it should always be noted. Since unless you're completely dedicating yourself to air play, and getting a quick fleet beacon to continue upgrading air attacks early in the game (which is very costly to drop by the time +1air, and in most cases, even +1/1 air is finished upgrading) you can easily fall behind on +attack if the opponent upgrades early.

Anyhow, carriers are good because, like most air units, get get a critical mass due to how they bunch, and their range helps even more. Unlike something like Mutas or voidrays, they are far more durable against spell-casters. Getting a critical mass of them is never going to be viable except in the most absurd team games.

Also, I want to dispel the seemingly common repeated myth about carriers have the highest DPS in the game. First, it would only be "single target" (or non-AE, at any rate) which obviously for Protoss is a significant downfall compared to our other T3 AE units. However, that's not really the case, even for single target. For example, a Thor (300/200) with a mere +1 base armor, dies to a carrier (450/250, with 8 interceptors) in ~17 seconds, I just tested to check. A thor attacking a thor kills it in about 9-10 seconds. Obviously, that doesn't mean carriers are worse, they overkill less due to quicker attacks, which is significant but the time until death is significant. Even worse, that's with only a 1 armor unit. If a carrier is behind on attack compared to opponent armor, or even fighting a unit high base armor, the DPS potential of a carrier, even assuming no interceptors die, is absolutely destroyed. A carrier takes 55 seconds to kill a single BC, with both units at 0/0.

The real problem with carriers in 1v1 is that they're so costly and they take so long to transition into, you're burning tons of money and opening yourself for an attack for very, very, long periods of time before you can get enough for them to be a significant force. A fleet beacon alone is 300/200. Graviton catapult is 150/150. Carrier is 450/250 after you make 4 interceptors. It takes 120 seconds for one to be made out of a single stargate (chronoboost helps a bit, if you dedicate it all to carriers. For comparison, a mothership takes 160 seconds base, and a battlecruiser 90.

That means, it takes a minimum of 1000/600 to get one carrier out, or 850/450 if you ignore graviton catapult, not counting the original stargate which, one would assume, would have been used before for air play opening. However, additional stargates will set you back further. That isn't the biggest problem, though, the biggest problem is the fact you have to have so much money tied up for so long before getting any benefit from it. Making a fleet beacon and spending 300/200 when that finally finishes a 120 game-time carrier ties up another 350/250 until it finally pops.

The real benefit of carriers, currently, is that it completely throws people off guard because they'd never expect it. The sad part is, you're probably better off getting a mothership before a carrier after you make your fleet beacon, since with the additional interceptor build time + carrier build time makes the time to get one fully functional carrier at 152 seconds effectively as long as a mothership, and if you include graviton catapult, costs quite a bit less, too. One carrier is not going to make as much of a difference in a fight, in most if not all cases, as much as one mothership, so it's safer to get that first, defensively.

And, to top it all off, you can't really transition from ground to carriers, even on multiple bases, effectively. Since carriers do a ton of small, quick, attacks, (5 damage, 2 shots per interceptor) it means that being behind on attacks compared to armor upgrade drops off carrier damage by obscene amounts. Being at 0 attack against +2 armor makes carrier DPS so terrible you might as well be using that gas to make sentries as a DPS unit.

Carriers are a cool unit, and I really am trying to make them work consistently, but every time I've been able to do it, I've been so far ahead already, or my opponent makes so many mistakes, that nearly anything would have worked. The window of opportunity to kill someone trying to pump out carriers is absurd. Even 3 stargates pumping out 6 carriers would take 240 in-game seconds, before chronoboost, to get them out and it's unlikely you'd have enough chrono boost to even support keeping them perma-boosted. to bring them down to ~90 seconds each, if I recall how the way Blizzard calculates the "50%" bonus.
"The trouble was that he was talking in philosophy, but they were listening in gibberish." -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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