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Can someone explain the video above? This is a TeSL event and with July playing in a LAN? Which event is this exactly?
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For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard
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On May 24 2011 16:14 Yogurt wrote:
For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard
But interceptors are just so fast, and with such a massive range it's hard to deal with them in masses. A while ago I was playing Fastest Map and someone went mass carrier, they were impossible to beat. There just isn't anything that can deal with it..
But in 1v1, they are fairly expensive and slow...
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I congratulate you fellow Brotoss, but I think your victory was in part the result of your Zerg opponent having no idea of what to do :/. Carriers just aren't good, practical units most of the time imo.
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You can rave all you want about how each attack upgrade gives +2 per shot, but you have to keep in mind that each interceptor loses 2 damage per target armor. I.e. corruptors with armor upgrades rape carriers super fucking hard.
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On May 24 2011 16:59 -orb- wrote:
GL with neural parasite GL inching the slow-ass snail infestors inside the radius necessary to cast neural while the +3 attack huge range behemoths en masse are disintegrating everything it touches.
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hahhaha, fun game. but you were ahead after the 1base Z attack (30 drones vs 50 probes...), plus the mutas didn't do that much (did you know, carriers have 2 armor? not bad.). In a more "normal" game, the Z economy is set up to skew pretty hard in composition (into corruptor/hydra/zergling?) so I don't know if we'll be seeing mass carrier transitions too often
edit: ok mutas actually did do decent damage but still you were probably safe from falling behind if played correctly... hard to say if that's due to or despite of the carriers =p
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Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.
I go them every time i play team games
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On May 24 2011 16:59 -orb- wrote:
GL with neural parasite
Why bother even posting if you put shit like that?
I honest;ly think that we need to look at our t3 units since every match up , the opponent assumes we are going colossus or even HT. I think with a litte more time in the think tank we can get a good build going.
Vs Z zealot phoenix into voidray into carriers with a mix ground?
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On May 24 2011 19:01 Zlasher wrote:
Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.
I go them every time i play team games
And battlecruisers. 2 base armor and yamato rapes carriers pretty hard.
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pure infestor corruptor mutilates this build, july had ample timing to pick up and saturate his third during the long ass carrier transition, but went into the robot mode of hydra beats air and got so scared of pure void ray that he didn't think to scout for carriers, probably because he never saw them in a game.
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TLO did a nice fight against a player who went all carriers on TL Attack.
+ Show Spoiler +He wasn't zerg though. He went stalker/high templar, and had quite a few archons due to the amounts of high templar he was fielding. Chaining storms absolutely destroyed the carriers, but you do need a lot of high templars and time. It was a FFA game, so it wasn't really serious, but the point stands.
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I don't think we see enough carriers in high level play because, to be honest, tosses have a ton of strong compositions right now. I think carriers are soooooo goood, but we haven't really seen toss struggle against a specific unit composition that requires them to break out from the regular ol tried and true collosus method.
Hopefully we'll see some Terran/Zerg innovation that will strain Toss to pump out some late game carriers, but right now as it is...it seems very situational, and overly flashy.
EDIT: To add on to the thought....Since toss' forge upgrades Robo and Gateway tech units, the starport play has its own upgrade tree, which may also make toss hesistant to switch to carriers if he did not start off with a Stargate tech path.
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if they increase the movement speed so they're faster vs vikings, and can actually be microable, we may see them more often.
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On May 24 2011 16:14 Yogurt wrote:
For air counters you are forgetting infestors. Infestor hydra would probably counter carrier pretty hard
i've met 3 base HTvoidcarrier.
i have no idea how he afforded it but it ripped the shit out of my infestor hydra mix.
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On May 24 2011 19:31 Coriolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 19:01 Zlasher wrote:
Carriers pretty much beat everything cost effectively except stimmed marines, and corruptors.
I go them every time i play team games And battlecruisers. 2 base armor and yamato rapes carriers pretty hard.
3 base armor. BCs are ok at dealing with carriers (drewbie vs minigun practice/for fun matches showed it on drewbies stream a while back).
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as i stated from the above: any voidray opening in high level PvZ means that Z will not be able to take their 3rd for a while. The money to invest in extra queens, spore and the time to get creep to the 3rd location. This leave Z with maximum 4 gas 2 bases which means that a tier 2 army STILL can be made BUT CANNOT be REMADE.
This means that once they trade all their hydra for may be 2/6 of your carrier, nothing else could stop your 4/6 carrier. Same goes to corruptors due to gas cost.
If you watch Hui vs July, you see how he has a soild follow up with gateways units. noticed the amount of gates he get after the 6th carrier came out and his +2 (or 3) almost finish at the end of the game. Any sort of corrupter play will be denied by a VR/gateway switch later.
Anyway, have fun trying out this build =)))... Love you all TL
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Carriers do not give +16 damage per attack upgrade. It gives it 1x16 damage. Saying +16 gives a false impression, since +1 armor would turn a +16 into a +15. A 1x16 gets turned into +0 damage against +1 armor. The difference is huge, and it should always be noted. Since unless you're completely dedicating yourself to air play, and getting a quick fleet beacon to continue upgrading air attacks early in the game (which is very costly to drop by the time +1air, and in most cases, even +1/1 air is finished upgrading) you can easily fall behind on +attack if the opponent upgrades early.
Anyhow, carriers are good because, like most air units, get get a critical mass due to how they bunch, and their range helps even more. Unlike something like Mutas or voidrays, they are far more durable against spell-casters. Getting a critical mass of them is never going to be viable except in the most absurd team games.
Also, I want to dispel the seemingly common repeated myth about carriers have the highest DPS in the game. First, it would only be "single target" (or non-AE, at any rate) which obviously for Protoss is a significant downfall compared to our other T3 AE units. However, that's not really the case, even for single target. For example, a Thor (300/200) with a mere +1 base armor, dies to a carrier (450/250, with 8 interceptors) in ~17 seconds, I just tested to check. A thor attacking a thor kills it in about 9-10 seconds. Obviously, that doesn't mean carriers are worse, they overkill less due to quicker attacks, which is significant but the time until death is significant. Even worse, that's with only a 1 armor unit. If a carrier is behind on attack compared to opponent armor, or even fighting a unit high base armor, the DPS potential of a carrier, even assuming no interceptors die, is absolutely destroyed. A carrier takes 55 seconds to kill a single BC, with both units at 0/0.
The real problem with carriers in 1v1 is that they're so costly and they take so long to transition into, you're burning tons of money and opening yourself for an attack for very, very, long periods of time before you can get enough for them to be a significant force. A fleet beacon alone is 300/200. Graviton catapult is 150/150. Carrier is 450/250 after you make 4 interceptors. It takes 120 seconds for one to be made out of a single stargate (chronoboost helps a bit, if you dedicate it all to carriers. For comparison, a mothership takes 160 seconds base, and a battlecruiser 90.
That means, it takes a minimum of 1000/600 to get one carrier out, or 850/450 if you ignore graviton catapult, not counting the original stargate which, one would assume, would have been used before for air play opening. However, additional stargates will set you back further. That isn't the biggest problem, though, the biggest problem is the fact you have to have so much money tied up for so long before getting any benefit from it. Making a fleet beacon and spending 300/200 when that finally finishes a 120 game-time carrier ties up another 350/250 until it finally pops.
The real benefit of carriers, currently, is that it completely throws people off guard because they'd never expect it. The sad part is, you're probably better off getting a mothership before a carrier after you make your fleet beacon, since with the additional interceptor build time + carrier build time makes the time to get one fully functional carrier at 152 seconds effectively as long as a mothership, and if you include graviton catapult, costs quite a bit less, too. One carrier is not going to make as much of a difference in a fight, in most if not all cases, as much as one mothership, so it's safer to get that first, defensively.
And, to top it all off, you can't really transition from ground to carriers, even on multiple bases, effectively. Since carriers do a ton of small, quick, attacks, (5 damage, 2 shots per interceptor) it means that being behind on attacks compared to armor upgrade drops off carrier damage by obscene amounts. Being at 0 attack against +2 armor makes carrier DPS so terrible you might as well be using that gas to make sentries as a DPS unit.
Carriers are a cool unit, and I really am trying to make them work consistently, but every time I've been able to do it, I've been so far ahead already, or my opponent makes so many mistakes, that nearly anything would have worked. The window of opportunity to kill someone trying to pump out carriers is absurd. Even 3 stargates pumping out 6 carriers would take 240 in-game seconds, before chronoboost, to get them out and it's unlikely you'd have enough chrono boost to even support keeping them perma-boosted. to bring them down to ~90 seconds each, if I recall how the way Blizzard calculates the "50%" bonus.
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Nice synopsis Lochat. Really would like to see some adjustment to Fleet Beacon/Carrier/Mothership so the path is at least viable for use. Currently Protoss is locked into Collosus or Archon/Templar for anything beyond the 125/125 game. Just way too predictable, and way too easy for any quality Zerg that macros that long to counter. The carrier as a unit could cover some big holes there if not for the crazy build cost/time. The upgrade probably needs to be baseline as well seeing as the carrier does not actually shoot it's own weapon and relies entirely on the interceptors to counter it's squishiness.
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just wana slightly pump this a bit since whitera is basicly using the same build recently on shakuras close air spawn. The different is that whitera doesn make probes to saturate mineral at his nature so his carriers came out much faster. The off side is that his build is incredibly risky vs all in plus he can only support 2 stargate and make no zealots.
This simply will make him having a harder time stopping Zerg from mass expanding and secure his own 3rd in case the Carriers cant straight up kill the Zerg.
You could look up the most recent Whitera vs TLO bo7 (or bo9?) for more detail and VODs.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c2/Carrier.gif)
